They haven't even announced what the 4th weapon is and you're complaining about it?

Nobody's complaining.

And yes they have. Refresh that page, son. They're boots, not a weapon.

They haven't even announced what the 4th weapon is and you're complaining about it?

Sigh. Did you notice that the "consolation prize" was 10,000 points to Soldiers simply because they really liked that poster?

Yep. But the way they stated it makes it seem SEPARATE from the top three prizes. That's all I was saying, and I think what Wowbagger was saying, but he isn't chiming back in, so who knows.

I was merely adding to Wowbagger's claim that he saw them say they would change the numbers if they wanted to.

Which they never did say, even your quote proves this.

Never said they outright suggested they would change the numbers "if they wanted to." That's how Wowbagger interpreted it.

Bullshit you aren't saying they are doctoring the numbers. You stated in one of posts that they probably pre-determined the winner. If that's not suggesting they are fudging the competition, then I don't know what is.

For all we know, the whole purpose was to see which class needed a buff in the name of balance; that class wins, and that's all that matters.

I'm done, looks like the Soldiers have won and will be awarded and this completely contradicts your entire argument.

Let's hope you're right.

Gabe Newell might take a liking to your poster and AWARD SOME POINTS to the side of your choice in the Soldier/Demo War. Is this fair?

Sigh. Did you notice that the "consolation prize" was 10,000 points to Soldiers simply because they really liked that poster?

I was merely adding to Wowbagger's claim that he saw them say they would change the numbers if they wanted to.

Which they never did say, even your quote proves this.

Again, I am NOT SUGGESTING they "doctored" the numbers. I am saying they are fucking DELIBERATE about how they make changes to the game, and they would not be stupid enough to simply award one class a buff simply because players are doing BETTER with that class.

Bullshit you aren't saying they are doctoring the numbers. You stated in one of posts that they probably pre-determined the winner. If that's not suggesting they are fudging the competition, then I don't know what is.

You keep saying that I'm wrong in my understanding what you are stating, then continue on stating the same thing again.

I am saying they are fucking DELIBERATE about how they make changes to the game, and they would not be stupid enough to simply award one class a buff simply because players are doing BETTER with that class.

But that's exactly what a competition IS. You award the winner, not the loser. I'm done, looks like the Soldiers have won and will be awarded and this completely contradicts your entire argument.

My post was in two sections. You obviously misinterpreted. I was trying to clarify what the quoted person (Wowbagger) was talking about--or at least what I believe him to have been talking about. Before the results of the poster contest were in, there was a post in its place that stated if they liked one enough that didn't end up in the winning positions, they may just change the numbers anyway since you managed to sway them. I wish Google had a cached version of it, because I've been f5ing the blog page for the past several days, and I know it was there originally.

In fact, just today, they removed a post and replaced it with the current one stating that the war is over and they are tallying the results. Prior to that, it said "today's update will be live in about an hour... Thank you for your patience in this matter." Or something close to that.

The REST of my post was my reasons why I believe they might have had one class in mind early on (not necessarily from the beginning), and that section of my post was entirely separate from the first part where I suggested what that quoted person may have been referring to, since I saw it too.

I made no allegations as to whether or not they (Valve) had been referring to adding numbers to the winners' preference (as in fact they made no allusions to the fact that that would be part of the winners' prizes, and indeed made it look like that would be a separate "consolation" prize, as it was worded in such a way as to make it appear unrelated to the winners bit). I did not either suggest that they would be willing to fudge the numbers. I was merely adding to Wowbagger's claim that he saw them say they would change the numbers if they wanted to. Someone asked for a source, and I looked, but the post is no longer there. It was overwritten by the contest winners post. I'm amazed no one else saw it.

Again, I am NOT SUGGESTING they "doctored" the numbers. I am saying they are fucking DELIBERATE about how they make changes to the game, and they would not be stupid enough to simply award one class a buff simply because players are doing BETTER with that class. Why would they do that? That would be COUNTER to everything they have been doing with the game up to this point, in terms of balance. They have been very carefully tweaking the game to create a system of balance, and to have one class which is already well rounded be given an extra weapon to INCREASE that class' versatility seems pretty insane, based upon Valve's track record concerning this game.

----EDIT----
HERE IT IS. I don't think it's linked anywhere on the blog anymore, but the original announcement is here:
http://www.teamfortress.com/propaganda/submit.php

To be precise, here is the part to which I think Wowbagger was referring, which appears toward the bottom of the page:

But wait! Against all the rules of contest creation, there is STILL MORE! Because even if you don’t win ANY of the prizes listed above, Gabe Newell might take a liking to your poster and AWARD SOME POINTS to the side of your choice in the Soldier/Demo War. Is this fair? No! Does Gabe care? Not even slightly!

This comment was edited on Dec 17, 2009, 18:39.

No I didn't miss it, but you didn't read the entirety of my post either. I was merely suggesting that was what that other poster was referring to. I wasn't listing it as a reason why I think Valve planned this.

I read your whole post and I know your first paragraph was you agreeing with Wowbagger and attempting to provide proof (that doesn't exist) that Valve had said they would edit the numbers as they saw fit.

They didn't edit the numbers in a "doctored" fashion as you and Wowbagger are suggesting. They said they may award points to the winners of the propaganda contest and they did, and they announced that.

The rest of your post was your own words and opinions, not what you think someone else was trying to say. You stated that you think Valve has pre-determined the winner of the War and that they are doctoring the Demomans numbers in the name of game balance. I THINK, the idea of a conspiracy here is ludicrous and unfounded.

Play the game. Damn near everybody is rooting for the fucking soldier. Look at the in-game updates where it says who is contributing what to which class. I'm finding that far more players are awarding points to the soldier. One guy in a server I was playing on last night had contributed over 1500 points to the soldier. Very few players overall seem to be killing all that many soldiers by comparison. I've been playing a fair amount, and it seems consistent across every server I visit. Even reading comments on this war, most players seem pro-soldier. Read threads on the steam forums. Read comments here on blues and the shack about the war updates. It's no secret that most people are rooting for the soldier, yet the numbers suddenly reversing seems to indicate the opposite.

And I would also like to mention that I'm not talking about any conspiracy theory. It's not a conspiracy at all. I think Valve would take offense to that accusation, and you believing they would blindly make a game changing decision like this simply based on numbers shows me you are underestimating Valve's genius (for lack of a better word) when it comes to game design.

Giving a buff to the class that is already far too easy to play would be catastrophically shortsighted. Do you know what would happen in such a case? Players would hate it. Everyone would be calling the soldier overpowered, and many would likely demand a reversal or some kind of change to reverse the effects. You don't get to be as good at listening to the community as Valve has by ignoring what it means to have balanced gameplay.

This comment was edited on Dec 17, 2009, 17:18.

Everywhere you look on the internet there is a conspiracy theory without good evidence to support it and in in fact good evidence to contradict it.

No I didn't miss it, but you didn't read the entirety of my post either. I was merely suggesting that was what that other poster was referring to. I wasn't listing it as a reason why I think Valve planned this.

In addition to them being incredibly smart and talented, it's not an easy thing to add a new weapon. It takes a lot of work. All the animations for each class are different, and syncing the weapon up with each character's animation isn't a simple job of copy and paste. They would be foolish to waste man hours building the content to work with BOTH classes only to end up only using one of them in the end. They worked out which one they were going to use it for early on, and made the content fit that class.

Even if every class had the same exact weapons, their animations are widely different, and so each weapon would have to be custom animated and built around each class, even if the weapons were the same. HUD elements are easier to implement.

They said something like "Robin might even like your poster enough to award some points to the side of your choice," or something to that effect

So did you miss the earlier story/link today where Valve announced the winners for the propaganda contest and the amounts awarded to each team?

50,000 and another 10,000 awarded to Soldiers and 25,000 awarded to the Demoman?

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=3253

It's not some conspiracy where they are doctoring the totals.

Your whole theory about them trying to help the Demoman scores is contradicted by the fact they awarded 60,000 additional points to the Soldiers and only 25,000 to the Demoman.

I think they are just having fun with this whole thing, right down to custom items for the propaganda contest winners. I'm sure they have multiple weapon ideas for every class that have gone unimplemented.

As has been discussed in the past and is evident of how long the class weapon updates have taken, adding new items for choice doesn't give any one class an advantage over others or disadvantage to those people without those weapons, it merely gives options. The weapons have all been implemented with drawbacks to their usage as well as their bonuses.

It's far too easy to game that sort of system, and Valve already said that they'll change the numbers if they want.

So they publicly announce that it's not been rigged and yet you're claiming they've previously stated the opposite. Forgive me for doubting you but what's your source for this?

It looks like they've removed the original post in the teamfortress.com blog. They mentioned it when they first announced the poster contest. They said something like "Robin might even like your poster enough to award some points to the side of your choice," or something to that effect. And this was after listing some of the possible prizes, giving the feeling that it would be a special case, and not one of the listed winners. I think this is what the guy was talking about.

Anyway, it really does feel like they've pre-determined the outcome. Valve aren't stupid. They're not going to make a huge game-changing decision like this lightheartedly. An extra weapon to a class can have huge impact, and I'm sure they thought it through really well. While they could have made the weapon's effect negligible, that would have made the weapon's presence virtually useless. They already know the Soldier is very well-rounded, and it is arguably the easiest class to play and do well at. Tipping the scale too much in the Soldier's favor could be disastrous. The Demo really needs more versatility, and I think they understand this too.

They probably tested the idea of a new weapon with both classes, but they realized early on that the Demoman really is more deserving and in need of it, and that the Soldier really doesn't need a buff. Perhaps the original post about the numbers was the real numbers, but then subsequently, they decided to turn it into a miraculous recovery of the Demo's numbers. It's also possible (and I suggested this in a different thread) that the whole purpose of this "war" was to test to see which class was actually in need of a buff to balance out the classes, and seeing the demo losing, they decided early on to give it to him, since he needs all the help he can get. So Valve planned it to work for either class, but the one who was losing was actually deemed to be the winner in the name of BALANCE, as that is what this game is all about. I don't see any other way it could have worked.

TL;DR: Valve planned it out thoughtfully. Demo is not well-rounded enough, and really only works well defensively vs. the Soldier. Soldier works defensively or offensively, so the Demo is to get a more offensive weapon.

If anyone is gaming the system its the gamers themselves.

It's far too easy to game that sort of system, and Valve already said that they'll change the numbers if they want.

So they publicly announce that it's not been rigged and yet you're claiming they've previously stated the opposite. Forgive me for doubting you but what's your source for this?

I demand a recount!

and Valve already said that they'll change the numbers if they want.

? link

The new weapons actually look pretty cool to me. I'm pretty sure that the demo/soldier war outcome was previously determined by Valve. I don't believe for a second that the numbers are legitimate. It's far too easy to game that sort of system, and Valve already said that they'll change the numbers if they want. So, while I'm sure the close race is a nail-biter for some, I'm just waiting to see what they decide to do in the end.

It amazes me how well this game has done all this time. Valve has really done such a great job keeping peoples intrest in this game & expanding in "good" ways. I expect to still be seeing this game popular in 3-5 years.