It doesn't have to be believable so much as somewhat predictable. Players who have played it more would be able to pick up on the patterns and mimic them.

Alternatively there could be some kind of 'mode switch' where the AI takes over the player for a short while to make them seem more convincing.

It's all doable - I just doubt it will come out of my head and onto the screen

The intelligent player would be trying to mimic the NPCs and not stand out whilst looking out for others who slip up.

The AI would have to be really believable though. It's amazingly easy to discern players from bots in any game. If the AI is really dumb, blending in will be almost impossible.

That could be great. The trickiest part would be blending in with the NPCs. If all the players are trying to kill the same target, they'll easily stand out from the crowd because they won't be walking around aimlessly. There's also the problem of griefing. It would be very easy for a player to just whip out an AK and start mowing down the crowds. The game would have to find some way to prevent this.

The intelligent player would be trying to mimic the NPCs and not stand out whilst looking out for others who slip up. It would add a whole new element to stealth gameplay.

I suppose a deathmatch mode would alleviate griefers. Best way to get rid of them is with a banstick

Fixed.

Thanks Vern. Don't know what we'd do without your witty and insightful comments.

I dream of a day when there's a multiplayer Hitman and there's PCs and NPCs and you have to get the job done without alerting any of the other hitmen who look just like the NPCs and are also on a similar mission. It would be so awesome if it was done right.

That could be great. The trickiest part would be blending in with the NPCs. If all the players are trying to kill the same target, they'll easily stand out from the crowd because they won't be walking around aimlessly. There's also the problem of griefing. It would be very easy for a player to just whip out an AK and start mowing down the crowds. The game would have to find some way to prevent this.

This comment was edited on Aug 12, 2009, 12:06.

Yes. Exactly like NWN2. And KOTOR2. And inevitably Fallout New Vegas. Buggy unfinished shadows of their predecessors.

And for the record, the pinnacle of CRPGs was Baldur's Gate I and II.

Ah I thought so. Oddly NWN 2 was much better than NWN, not only in story arc but in scope along with modding/dev tools. KoTOR2 well that was interesting, there was supposed to be a pile more material for it, unfortunately the core publisher(you know pencil pushers) decided to rush the game and kick it out the door for the rush. Now where do you place for blame on that? If you've dealt with people like that it only makes for a very grumpy day when you're developing a game and are required to cut out the last 25% of the content which is what happened.

The pinnacle of CRPG's wasn't BG1/2. It was PS:Torment, BG was a typical dungeon crawler, what BG did right was turn the world into micro-chapters with exploration. What Torment did was write an interactive novel that actually changed the games ending on how you progressed, later taken by BG. This was later adopted by other developers. Did the BG series have an epic story arc? Yes, but it missed some of the core concepts of drawing you into the character.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I don't particularly like anything except complaining on these forums.

Fixed.

If Hitman 5 is to Blood Money as Blood Money was to Hitman 2 then I will be one very happy gamer

I dream of a day when there's a multiplayer Hitman and there's PCs and NPCs and you have to get the job done without alerting any of the other hitmen who look just like the NPCs and are also on a similar mission. It would be so awesome if it was done right.

Gotta agree with Jerykk.
I hated the amount of combat in BG1+2. Combat is not RPG. Having to fight as a consequence of actions, okay. But fighting just because there's nothing better to do while you walk around, AND scaling the mobs because otherwise it'd be really stupid, that's not RPG.

Speaking of Obsidian, I did appreciate NWN2-SoZ (expansion #2) quite a bit thanks to the massive number of choices and possibilities using the often underutilized skills. Role playing using D&D in computers is extremely difficult to do properly, while a human DM generally has a much better time at it.

(For the record, I hated NWN2-MoB because of the triple whammy of stupid epic D&D levels, undead overkill and minimal skill-based choices)

Then WTF was the Fallout series? Serving tea and eating crumpets? Fallout was a proverbial bloodbath compared to the BG series.

Not really. You could avoid most combat if you invested in the proper skills and attributes. Hell, you could even persuade the final boss to kill himself. The Fallout games were far, far more open-ended than BG1&2.

As for the dungeons, did you not raid the vaults and military bases in Fallout 3?

To be fair, I was referring to Fallout 1 and 2. I don't consider Fallout 3 to be a CRPG. The first two games have very minimal dungeon crawling.

Unless you're counting simply being inside buildings the same as dungeons, the dungeon crawling element of BG and BG II were fairly light to how much time you spent outside.

Unfortunately, wandering around the forest in BG was pretty much a dungeon crawl in and of itself. It was pretty much impossible to get from one side of an area to the next without encountering mobs. And even if you killed all the mobs and saved the game, new ones would randomly spawn in when you loaded the save. FO2 had a lot of random encounters but they could be avoided with the appropriate skills and stats.

No wonder you liked Planescape Torment more than BG, the combat was ridiculously easy and more in line with Diablo.

I think that statement pretty much sums up why our opinions differ so greatly. I don't care about combat in CRPGs. If I want combat, I play an action game or a strategy game. RPGs are supposed to be about choice and consequence and letting players play the game the way they want to play it. PST let you do this. BG, on the other hand, has a whole lot of unavoidable combat.

Damn, son, if you played real D&D, and I mean the real deal, 2.0 ruleset, I'd fucking eat you alive as a DM.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I don't particularly like D&D. I don't like the rules, I don't like the over-reliance on magic (and the hundreds of completely redundant spells), I don't like the moral systems and I don't like the settings (except for Planescape). I don't like dungeon crawling either. If D&D is what you consider to be the only "real" RPG, we'll have to agree to disagree. It's good to see you hold such pride in your DM skills, though.

yeah what happened to IO?

They made Kane & Lynch, are about to release Mini Ninjas, and then I believe they are stated to be working on Kane & Lynch 2.

As for this, I loved the Batman demo and it was VERY well ported to PC, so I welcome this.

Nice one Garret... you super sleuth.

BG is too combat centric and has an over-emphasis on dungeon crawling.

Then WTF was the Fallout series? Serving tea and eating crumpets? Fallout was a proverbial bloodbath compared to the BG series.

As for the dungeons, did you not raid the vaults and military bases in Fallout 3? Did you not run around the subway lines and stations? Unless you're counting simply being inside buildings the same as dungeons, the dungeon crawling element of BG and BG II were fairly light to how much time you spent outside.

No wonder you liked Planescape Torment more than BG, the combat was ridiculously easy and more in line with Diablo. For that matter, do you even know what an RPG is? Let alone have you ever played one?

Do you use character editors for your games or do you actually have a set of balls and roll them yourself? Damn, son, if you played real D&D, and I mean the real deal, 2.0 ruleset, I'd fucking eat you alive as a DM.

This comment was edited on Aug 12, 2009, 02:37.

I'd love to see a Hitman game with this gen's graphics. Hell it could be a rehash of Blood Money with just wicked graphics/physics and I'd be happy.

This comment was edited on Aug 12, 2009, 01:06.

arcanum, period.

yeah what happened to IO?

And for the record, the pinnacle of CRPGs was Baldur's Gate I and II.

I disagree completely. I thought the Fallout games and Planescape: Torment were much better. BG is too combat centric and has an over-emphasis on dungeon crawling. The enemy respawn rates were really annoying too.

As for Hitman 5 being made by Rocksteady, I have my reservations. Rocksteady doesn't have any experience making Hitman games and the closest they've gotten to stealth is Batman. IO Interactive, on the other hand, has a proven record with Hitman games.

Ah you mean like NWN2? Oh never mind I'm probably talking to someone who thinks that the pinnacle of CRPG's is Halo.

Yes. Exactly like NWN2. And KOTOR2. And inevitably Fallout New Vegas. Buggy unfinished shadows of their predecessors.

And for the record, the pinnacle of CRPGs was Baldur's Gate I and II.

Oh NO not Rocksteady after judging their work in the Batman demo this will just be awful.

An outsourced sequel. Im surprised it isn't Obsidian, LOL. Oh wait they only do sloppy outsourced RPGs.

Ah you mean like NWN2? Oh never mind I'm probably talking to someone who thinks that the pinnacle of CRPG's is Halo.

An outsourced sequel. Im surprised it isn't Obsidian, LOL. Oh wait they only do sloppy outsourced RPGs.

Outsourcing?