You know it really isn't about the money. If I paid a one time fee and then paid monthly that would be fine. It's the whole coming up with an 'expansion' pack after 6 months giving functionality in the first place....so by the end of the f*(&*(ing year you've spend $200 on one freaking game. THAT is ridiculous. If the subscription fee included updates to gameplay now THAT would be reasonable.

Macros

I LOVE number 66's permutation idea. Hopefully the designers will incorporate this idea (or already had it planned) Did anyone else read the actual article? Everyone is knocking the gameplay but I have to say, it sounds like this time ID is doing things RIGHT! They are hiring a real writer to work on the script and develop the plot...what a novel idea eh? For those people who had the joy of playing Gabriel Knight 3, Planetscape Torment, Deus Ex, The Longest Journey and (a VERY oldie that SHOULD BE REMADE!!!) Realms of the Haunting, you'll understand what that can mean to a video game. If they succeed in having a compelling story with that graphics engine I may never play anything else.... It sounds like they are planning to take the FPS world by storm in more than just graphics. I mean, up to this point people think Half-Life had a good story for God sakes! A pure shooter with beautiful graphics and a System Shock level story line....Kill ME NOW!!!!

Macros746

The whole question of a ratings system is interesting. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea behind the bill but I do think that legislating what is an isn't 'moral' or 'appropriate' is a very slippery slope. There are still MANY school districts in the United States where To Kill a Mockingbird may not be read in school because it contains rape. There are some states now where watching the movies Kids and Lolita are illegal because they contain underage sex...do you see where I am going with this? It is ALWAYS a problem of how something is enforced. It is easy to say you can never kill someone unless they are trying to kill you...it is much harder to say if you are under 17 you shouldn't read or watch or play with something that might be morally objectionable...

Macros

umm....so how is the game fellas?

Macros

Heretic II was a beautiful and amazing game in every arena except voice acting. Control, spot on, weapons, cool, animation, amazing, ....basically I am pretty much a Raven fan boy....they have made me their bitch

Macros

p.s. I also was blown away by Hexen II...but I know I was in the minority

I am shocked that no one has brought up the possibility that this demo was leaked on purpose. I mean from a PR point of view this could not have worked better for EA. The minute you tell people they can't have something or that they can but it is naughty there are going to be MANY people that jump on the bandwagon. The reason they didn't come after Blue sooner was NOT because it was a holiday...PR firms are paid to keep people on the ball at all times and minimize damage. They didn't come after him because they wanted this buzz about this demo. They NEEDED some positive (or at least contraversial) PR after the mess that was the MP demo. The magazine that this demo was to be attached to doesn't come out until February...no one was hurt except for maybe Amazon.com. But in terms of hardcore gamers how many are really going to go to Amazon.com and order the demo? NONE....ZERO! The people that might do that are parents of gamers and they will STILL do it. Thus I maintain that not only was no one hurt but EA got thousands of dollars of free publicity. WAKE UP!

Macros

I return it....and if I like it I buy it. ALthough if I could afford the Van Gogh in the first place I suppose I wouldn't ever have to worry about getting burned by programmers......lawsuits galore!



Macros

alright...you are being nitpicky but alright. How is this? I go into a library and check out a book of prints by Van Gogh. How is that?



Macros

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I don't know whether or not you read my earlier posting #37 but you'll find that I don't entirely disagree with you. The problem with the analogies that everyone is throwing around is that none serve as a complete analogy...only so far as they serve. For instance, we have both used painting and car analogies. You say that comparing a car to a piece of software is ridiculous. In some respects you are correct. But it doesn't really matter whether I am talking about a car or a lesser piece of equipment if you insist on making it a price issue lets examine it this way: A piece of software=$50. A portable CD Player=$50. If you purchased a CD player from a reputable company and it played CDs well most of the time but occasionally simply wouldn't you would expect to be able to return it wouldn't you? And if you couldn't you would feel as if you were wronged wouldn't you? You say that you returned Ultima with no problem and I congratulate you. But it has been pointed out many times in this debate that increasingly many software chains don't allow return of a piece of software AT ALL unless the disc is defective. In which case you can exchange if for the same piece of software. This selling of defective product is NO less inexcusable then selling any other defective product and the producers should be held accountable. The law should be equitable on this front. If people can be thrown in jail and the key tossed for warez, then programmer who sell defective software should be liable for class action suits and pursuit by the BBB. The only reason we don't see this is that the general group of people who are effected by this fraud are young and not wealthy. If there were a bunch of 80 year old gamers out there supported by the AARP lobby then I guarantee things would change in a hurry. I did not intend to compare the life threatening nature of a defective car with software, but when people's harddrives are being wiped (increasingly many people's livelyhood is their computer) by errant code that is a VERY dangerous thing is it not? Now on to the painting analogy. Your is good but I think if you read my earlier posts you will see that mine is equally valid. I am sure that I am not alone in viewing great games as works of art. If I like a Van Gogh, I may purchase a print of it, but if I could own the original, I would. There is no denying that almost all rips take a great deal of functionality out of a game...voiceoverwork (although sometimes I wish I could take this out of the commercial version ) MOvies which are increasingly excellent, and music all bite the dust with warez. So I, and many gamers, understand that it is essentail to own the original in order to enjoy the full beauty of the product. So, in keeping with the analogy, I buy the poster to find out if I like the artist...if I do, I buy the painting.

Macros

p.s. I do realize that no one is going to suddenly do a 180 and change their minds on this but I do want programmers to stand up and start to realize that the non-functional games that are being thrown onto shelves have victims! And, as valid as the view that programmers deserve their fair share is (I agree heartily!), gamers need to stop getting burned.

(Pool of Radience, Ultima IX, Sin, World War II Online, Anarchy Online, Diakatana....the list goes on and on...)

In response to number 80. The reason these arguements are 'trotted' out every time this debate occurs is because many of them are valid. In response to your comments

1. Games are Sheit! As I said in my post #37 it isn't that MOST games are sheit, but certainly the ratio of functioning games on the shelves and buggy pieces of crap has changed dramatically over the last few years. So, sadly, certain games that are phenominal are so bug ridden that they are unplayable by many (Ultima Ascension anyone?) I mean there have been several MMORPGs lately that have been released that weren't playable online out of the box!!! And, as I also said in post 37, MANY developers release demos that do their products no justice (Alien versus Predator 2, Medal of Honor....the list goes on) I am MORE inclined to buy a game when I can TRULY see what it has to offer. And, as to not supporting certain publishers,...that is a hard request indeed. INcreasingly this is a business that is dominated by a very few publishers. And each of those publishers (possibly with the exception of Blizzard) has some real stinkers under their belt. If I were to stop giving my money to publishers for releasing buggy product I would have to switch to console gaming entirely.

2. Games are too expensive. As I said before I float somewhere in the middle in this debate and I do not dispute that even if games were cheaper there would be people happily pirating them. BUT you cannot tell me that cheaper prices would not be warmly received by the public and reflected in sales. Look at the enormous commercial success that Serious Sam was. If one of the publishing companies could build a reputation of releasing very good games at budget prices I can personally guarantee it's success. So, clearly, price IS an issue.

3. It's not real stealing, like stealing a car. As pointed out by #80 and before that by me this is not a fair comparison for many reasons but the most obvious is this: If you bought a new car and it wouldn't run out of your driveway but worked fine in your neighbors and you couldn't return it, wouldn't you characterize that as theft on the part of the DEALER? If you bought a car that occasionally and randomly stopped running or did dangerous things during use when new and you had to spend hours of your time fixing it to run properly wouldn't that also be theft on the part of the DEALER? (the recent installation programs that, when uninstalled, wiped portions of people's harddrives out comes to mind...)

4. Piracy helps some products.
Piracy DOES help some products and, for the record, I pirated Max Payne and then liked it so much I bought it...that helped the developers now didn't it?

5. Puts bright young boys behind bars.
Come on! Get a life. You need to open your eyes to the fact that the government only cracks down when it serves it's best interest. It is sad but true. If there weren't so much money in the Microsoft lobby I guarantee this would not be the issue it is.

6. What about our RIGHTS?
I agree with number 80 about how frighteningly conservative and totalitarian the US is getting but, as I said in #37, I also support the rights of developers who do good work to get paid for it. That is why I buy the games that I like.

Macros

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 11:18.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Actually, I feel that in some ways I am actually doing the gamer developers a service by trying out the 'full' versions of their game before buying it. As I mentioned below I feel that many developers do themselves and their team a disservice by releasing the demos that they do. For instance, I played the A v P 2 demo a few months ago and was HORRIFIED! Then I played the complete game at a friends house a few days ago and now I am certain I will purchase it in the future. So, I guess I feel that I am not stealing when I demo 'full' versions (especially since I can't think of a single major title in the last year that didn't release some kind of demo) I am just giving the game a real chance to shine.

Macros

p.s. To see what I mean read the posts about Medal of Honor...have you ever heard such angry people? I'll bet alot of money that is going to be an incredible game...but some of those people will judge it based on this demo...

p.p.s. Actually, I wasn't arguing that poor quality software necessarily increases piracy. If you re-read my post I think you'll agree. What I was saying is that it is a vicious cycle. I also say that even if all games were bug free and marvelous they would still be pirated. I AM saying, however, that my own piratic tendancies would be greatly reduced if I hadn't been burned so often by buggy releases.

For the person who attacked me for 'being stupid and not doing research before buying'...don't make ignorant claims unless you know for certain that that is the case. I read almost every review that I can on the net before I even think about buying a game. But that has not stopped my high end computer from simply not running certain games that I have purchased. And many stores will let you return software...but only for a copy of the same game! So, clearly, as I said before, this is all a viscious cycle. Consumers want to download warez to make sure that they are not being tricked into buying a buggy piece of shit game but then this very piracy forces programmers to lower their overhead to make a profit thus cutting down developement time and releasing buggy software. Now I realize that I am among the few 'moral' pirates and that, as said before, if all games were half price and bug-free there would a large group of people downloading warez. I agree. I'm not sure what the answer is. I still stand staunchly by my earlier statement that selling buggy software that the developer KNOW doesn't work properly is stealing. And I will say that I, for one, will buy a game if I think it is great even if I beat it in a few days (like Max Payne....I own it now) because I consider great games to be works of art...and I collect them as such. So, to continue the art metaphor, I download the 'poster' of the great work to see if I like the artist. If I do I go out an purchase the real Van Gogh.

Macros

p.s. I know most of you programmers are saying 'bullshit' pirates never buy software. But, there are a few of us 'moral' pirates out there....

p.p.s. Programmers REALLY need to learn how to release demos. I am a subscriber to PC Gamer mainly so I can play the demos on the disc. So many of the demos I have played have been so poor that when I actually saw the finished game I was shocked that it was good. Do yourself a favor. Only release demos that showcase your game...don't release buggy crappy demos that run like a crippled dog. (THIS MEANS YOU Alien Vs. Predator 2...your marine SP demo looked worse than the original game...and this also means you Medal of Honor...stink-o-rama.

None of the programers have yet answered my question. If you sell the public a faulty program for which they can not get a refund and you take their money is this not ALSO stealing? See my post 37 and let's see an answer or two. I DO agree with the sentiment that pirates are screwing some developers out of well deserved cash, but the half released software that has been being shat upon the store shelves lately is inexcusable. And, for me, there is a direct correlation there. I WILL NOT pay $50 for a game until I am sure that it will work on my system and be a good game. How do I make sure it will work? I download it and play it for a few days. Then, I buy it.

This is all a very interesting debate. And,as usual, I find myself agreeing with some aspects of both sides. I DO download warez but, as mentioned before, I do it to try out games. ALL games that I spend any time playing I purchase because, no matter how good the rip, there are still always things left out. I will not deny that Piracy causes problems for developers who deserve the money and the prestige that commerical success should bring (looking glass studios comes to mind although certainly piracy was only ONE reason for their folding). But I want to suggest this analogy to all the developers that are throwing around moral absolutes: Since the car analogy was used earlier I will use one of my own. Would it be acceptable for a car maker to release a car that only started one out of every ten times you got in to drive? WOuld it be acceptable to release a car that would stop suddenly for no apparent reason while driving and refuse to restart? Would it be acceptable to release a car that only worked in 8 out of every 10 driveways? I think you'll agree that the answer is a resounding no. I do sympathize with how difficult it must be to make software that is almost bug free and functions as promised. But you will all have to agree that this problem of releasing half finished software has reached epidemic proportions. I realize it is a viscious cycle. The more piracy the less money for development, the less money for development the less time for development cycle...etc. But, as I said before, there are no absolutes. I use warez as a means of determining that a game is worth my money and that it will function on my system. And, in my opinion, to demand money for a product that won't work is ALSO stealing. So before you get on a high horse ask youself how you would feel about driving a car out of a dealership, being unable to return it except for the same model which also won't function, and being promised a 'patched engine' sometime in the future so your car might run properly....just something to think about.

Macros

No reason to be offensive "dude" my point was simply in comparing the original game to the sequel. The original Unreal netcode sucked donkey balls. It took them almost a year and a half to totally fix it. I never said anything about the netcode of UT...because Unreal 2 won't be a sequel to UT...logic....hmmm....maybe you should try it.

Mark

p.s. I prefer UT to Q3 just for your info. My point was that these developers only have to surpass their original creations and that, for many, that won't be all that hard.

I used to jump aboard the "if it is delayed for incredibly long time it will be shiet" bandwagon but lately there have been some truly notable exceptions. Max Payne is an amazing game in every way...it went through almost all of the same growning pains as DNF (engine change, early hype...), Halo looks amazing and is extremely fun, is it the revolution everyone said it would be....? probably not, but it is a great game. Deus Ex set the standard for all FPS/RPGs for the future after over a year of jeering 'vaporware' cries. Even going back a ways, Outcast, in development for years and worth every second. Could this game be another Daikatana? Sure. Should we attack it until we know? Nope. I think we have to remember that this game has a harder mission than almost any other game before. Sequels to beloved games have it hard as it is, but Duke had so many things that worked well that MUST be there in the sequel that we are indeed talking about a magnum opus. I mean the level of interactivity and humour that MUST be in DNF for it to be a success has not been seen in a true 3d video game (NOLF comes close but no cigar) Other sequels had a much easier time. RTCW....it just has to involve killing Nazis, beautiful graphics and the addition of online play. Doom 3...it has to be scary and atmospheric with the best graphics ever. Unreal 2 ...has to have graphics that destroy the competition and online support that doesn't suck. I think you'll agree that all of those are somewhat easier than a game with a signature character, who can completely interact with the enviornment, add jokes that combine whismy with stupid belly laughs. This is alot to live up to. I, for one, think they are going to deliver. If they don't, well there are lots of other games to play. My point in all of this (I know I have digressed a lot) is that DNF could be bullshit vaporware. It could be they are just afraid to release it. On the otherhand it could be a whole lot of really creative developers realizing what is humanly possible and implementing every wonderful idea. Wouldn't you rather have that? A game that near perfection and achieves everything it set out to do. I would prefer to be optamistic and hope for that in this era of buggy, half-finished game releases with patches to add functionality.

Mark

p.s. don't let me down 3D realms.....

I'm perfectly willing to give the boys at ID a chance...but a revisitation of the Strogg world doesn't really excite me. What DOES excite me is the involvement of RAVEN. They have yet to make a bad game and they seem truly brimming with great ideas. Hopefully they will find a way to make the plot and the enemies more compelling. I never did like blowing away robot cyborgs....the demons in Doom were far more interesting and scary. I have been playing a whole lot of Undying lately and, believe me, they better have something awfully special up their sleeves to compete with the screams and creatures in that bad ma ma jamma. I don't care what engine they are using.

Macros746