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User information for Fang

Real Name Fang   
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Nickname Fang
Email Concealed by request
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Signed On Jul 19, 2000, 18:39
Total Comments 1080 (Pro)
User ID 6315
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
91. Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 19:01 Fang
Book smart is book smart.

Then why use it to close the door on those who already have fewer opportunities?

I don't give two shits about the correlation of the good ol boy system and minorities, I am saying jobs do not benefit (in general) those who bust their ass.

Right, because usually we only care about when things are unfair for us, we don't really care when they are unfair for others (usually, because it benefits us).

bla bla bla comparing me to white supremecists, bla bla bla.

Yeah, I apologize, it wasn't meant as a comparison, but an illustration as to the fallacy of that kind of argument.

Have you been out of college yet?
Your arguments are very similar to the ones I had in college. All books and theories and no real world examples. The "I art holier than thou" because of your education. I did the same thing.

Oh yes, I've been working for 5 years and gained a bit of "real world experience" as an employee and hiring manager. Decided to go back for more punishment. And yes, I can provide anecdotes, but they are pretty weak compared to rigorously done studies.

The underlying assumption that I am challenging you on, is that there are not qualified minorities who can do "X" job or who can graduate from "X" college. I assert that there are, then the question becomes why aren't they hired or admitted? Is it because of our subconscious racism that is illustrated by the 50% difference in reponse rates to similar resumes with white names vs. black names? (which I assert is what AA is attempting to alleviate) And when they are admitted are the higher failure rates due to their race? Or is it some other factors (the historical overt racism that impeded their parents preventing them from helping their children, the current subconscious racism of expected failure or resentment, lack of funds for better study materials/prep courses/better teachers).

You claim that it doesn't work in the Midwest. I could see how that argument can be supported by claiming that there are just too few minorities in the area to support the higher expected rates of hiring them. But the flip side is that with fewer minorities, subconscious racism can be more easily hidden (and more prevalent).

Now I realize that with your "many experiences" things are more ingrained into you. But I'm just trying to challenge your thinking, that things may not be how they appear.

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News Comments > Out of the Blue
88. Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 17:51 Fang
Replying to your own post?

Unfortunatley, reviews aren't based on performance (whoever believes that shit that is not in a sales envirnment....I have some land to sell you) it is all about who sucks up the best and who is buddy with who. A small part of it is how well you perform, but don't make your supervisor or anyone who is above you look bad by working hard!

Wait, you aren't going to start advocating AA due to this now, are you?

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News Comments > Out of the Blue
87. Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 17:47 Fang
In the work environment, it would be better than the good ol boy system of todays Big Business. I out perform my peers, yet I do not get paid equally. Most likely because of my age.

But didn't you read the AA fine print, you were probably hired BECAUSE of your age... Just pulling your leg. Do you think that the good ol' boy system doesn't negatively effect minorities too? (thus the point of the Bertrand study) For their whole lives, not just when they get older? Would it be "fair" to try to compensate for that in some way?

It isn't racism. It is facts. Hard core facts.

That's what most white supremacists said during the founding years of intelligence testing. But interpreting facts isn't always easy.

I don't consider myself a racist, and I have not made any indication to have you put that label on me.

That why I called it subconscious racism.

It has had a negative affect on many in my experience.

Again, this perceived negative effect may have more to do with your perceptions than with the "facts".

And as for "facts". Sure, facts are great, but it all goes into the interpretation of those facts. Now a well-done study gives more weight to your argument then simple anecdotes, so I applaud you for that.

As for an analysis of this study, if lower class standing reflected lower graduation rates then higher class standings (or lack of lower class standings) should reflect higher graduation rates. An interesting thing to look at would be if AA increased graduation rates for whites, since this would mean there were fewer of them in the lower class standings.

I'm just saying the standard correlation does not imply causation. There may be other factors causing lower graduation rates than low class standing. (Expectation of failure by their profs, resentment from white peers and thus lack of study groups which are key to law school, availability of loans for tuition, just to name a few).

But if there is causation, the next thing to look at is if higher graduation rates from "lesser" schools would compensate for the good ol' boy factor of getting a degree from a top law school.

Though I do want to point out that I would really be surprised if there is causation. For some strange reason, a number of my close friends attend Harvard Law. One thing I have learned is that it is *really* hard to fail out of law school (at least at Harvard). You can have people who never attend class, do really poorly in class, and still graduate. Failure to get to graduation is probably caused by other factors. And my guess is that going to a "lesser" school will not alleviate those factors. But to know this for sure, I think another study would need to be done to know if his *estimate* is true. (which you should note, is not a "cold hard" fact, its an estimate.)

Oh, and I scored very high - but according to you, I am an idiot cause I can pass a test.

I never took the ACT so I won't pass judgement on it. Though my point isn't that you ARE an idiot, my point is that (especially at the top levels) the SAT does not differentiate well on who is "smarter" than others from the score. There may very well be "better/smarter" candidates than you who got lower scores.

Claiming that you are surrounded by geniuses all day long doesn't necessarily make you one.

I apologize if you took that statement to imply that I was. The statement was meant to indicate my analysis of geniuses that I am around and indicate the lack of good standardized measurement tools of their intelligence.

As for whether or not I am a genius, it depends on the type of intelligence you are measuring against and what scale you are using. For example, these two true statements can *imply* that I am a genius. I have a 5.0/5.0 GPA at MIT; I am a member of Mensa. But let's take a look at each of these and why they are inadequate to support the statement "I am a genius". I assert that there are people smarter than me in my department with a lesser GPA than me. However, they do not attend class, nor spend most of their time on the subject material. Therefore, a higher GPA really doesn't mean that I am "better" than them. There is also this unique factor of MIT exams and their tendency not to test exactly what was taught in class, but I'll leave that for another time.

But does that mean I am a genius? Well, who am I being compared to? Those others who have a lower GPA than me? On other measurements, like success in research, I'm sure they will outrank me. Against the general population? Well, what kind of intelligence are we measuring? For example, I'm very bad at learning new languages.

As for being a member of Mensa, there have been plenty of studies on Mensa members and how successful (of lack thereof) they are in life. Qualification of being in Mensa is basically just scoring in the top 2% on a qualified standardized or I.Q. exam. You already know what I think about some standardized exams, so I'll just leave it at that.

But I digress.

You believe in it and have data, I don't believe in it and I also have data.

It's not all about data, but how you interpret it, and as I've learned economics at MIT, I know things aren't always what they seem.

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News Comments > Out of the Blue
84. Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 15:57 Fang
Are you telling me that those who get into the school are better qualified than other groups not given a bump in their SAT?

There is an underlying assumpting you are making in using that "information". You are assuming that SAT scores are indicative of how "smart" a student is. What I am saying is that we don't know if they are better qualified, because standardized tests can only measure a small portion of the mental level of a student. There is a reason that MIT doesn't accept every 1600 scorer. So yes, they may very well be better qualified.

And even then, if its a poorly written test... really, the math portion of the SAT is a joke. If you have any intelligence whatsoever, it becomes who can make the least of simple math errors in a timed environment. There is no mental challenge needed to solve those questions, no calculus, no pre-calculus, just stuff middle school students are expected to learn. A much better test would be modeled on something like MathCounts.

And the verbal... gee, do you know the definition of this random esoteric word? Well, we'll give you a score based on that.

I'm surrounded by absolute geniuses every day, and let me assure you that this kind of test is a very poor indication of mental ability. But hey, its a way to put numbers on people.

Ultimatley, I see problems with the system, obviously you don't.

You obviously have me misunderstood. I see the system as inherently flawed. In the end, its inherently subjective. Look at your example, they liked your essay. Completely subjective. What a bunch of BS. How is that supposed to say that you are a better candidate than others? What if they reader just didn't connect with you on a cultural level? Do you think that you got in over others with higher SAT scores but essay's the officers just didn't like? I bet you did.

Do you want a meritocracy? I've been in an absolute one, and I don't think you would it. Because you will be measured, found lacking, and no slack will be cut for you. Am I proposing a way to fix the system? No, like I said, I've been in an absolute meritocracy, and it isn't fun.

AA is a way to combat the racism in people like you, who subconsciously think minorities are under qualified, and whose opinions dictate whether or not they get a good recommendation, pass the admissions process, or get that resume call back.

Likewise - as I give real world examples and you give a model. I say how it IS and you say how it SHOULD BE.

As for my hard evidence, look at the Harvard/MIT/NBER study I linked to in my earlier post. I think that's a bit more than a few anecdotal stories. Also, you have me mistaken, I'm not saying how it "should" be, I'm saying that how it IS, is probably the best we can fix an inherently flawed system.

Gee, you provided another story of a subconsciously racist admissions officer (actually, I don't blame them, they only have standardized numbers to go off of, and who would ever doubt numbers?).

Should college admissions process take into account how much taxes their parents pay, both federal and state? That doesn't seem very fair. Should students be penalized because they and their parents live in another country and pay no American taxes?

If we had a true meritocracy, very few Americans would get into the top schools. "Oh, but we pay our taxes for these schools, we deserve to get in." So we really want a meritocracy until the level that it stops helping us. Things are only fair when it benefits us.

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News Comments > Out of the Blue
78. Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 01:41 Fang
I have worked at 2 places where we HAD to hire someone and ended up letting them go because of performance issues. They were both hired under AA.

Ignoring the subjective matter of "performance evaluations" (the Mt. Fuji book also talks about that), it seems that the true problem is your hiring process is failing to identify who can get the job done. If it could figure that out, then they wouldn't have even been brought in for an interview.

And I'm sure that plenty (as you allude to) have been let go for "performance issues" that haven't been hired under AA. Does that mean AA is the problem? No, your hiring process is flawed in identifying who can get the job done.

And if you're crying that your company "makes" you hire people who can't get the job done, 1) the company is stupid 2) the person is obviously going to fail if they have to work with someone who is already prejudiced against them (never mind that they probably get to write the later performance review).

/edit: And your correlation to getting a job and getting into MIT is very weak. (One of my concentrations was Econ)

That's only because you know little of what MIT is like. If that example, doesn't do it for you, just ignore it. It was for illustration purposes only. And Econ was also one of my concentrations.

Why do they have questions at the big 5 that are "optional", yeah right, about your ethnicity? It is because you need to read the fine print on that application about AA and EOE. Cause if you haven't, you are missing out on some BS GOLD!

Those good enough facts for you?

You should reread the fine print. All it says is that the company won't discriminate against you. (The hiring managers on the other hand... which is the point of AA, to prevent them from doing it.) If you take it to mean more than that, you're mistaken. But its good to use to feel like *those* minorities sure have it easy.

edit: I find your facts very weak in support of your hypothesis.
This comment was edited on Nov 17, 01:43.
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
76. Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 00:57 Fang
Are you sure the best person didn't get the job? How do you know? Maybe you only perceive that this minority who got the job isn't the best person. Maybe the problem isn't with the minority or the system, but with your perception.

Dang, if it were that simple to figure out who was the best person, hiring would be so much simpler. In general, how the hell can anyone tell who's best? You can look at a resume (or who pads the most on a resume), you can talk to them for an hour, but in the end, its usually the first 15 subjective seconds of a meeting that dictates whether or not someone gets hired. Check out "How to move Mt. Fuji" to look at how most hiring practices are done (which is then compared to Microsoft's).

There is no true absolute measure for who the best person is.

It's all completely subjective, and when its all subjective, racism can hide in it. Take a look at France. They go with the whole "stick our head in the sand" out-look on race, and ignore it complete. It conveniently lets them hide the amount of racism they do have.

One of my wife's fellow researchers at MIT Economics department recently worked on a study that sent out the same resume with different names on it (using standard white names and standard minority names). They found that standard white names got a vastly greater response rate than minority names... WITH THE SAME RESUME!!!

Do you know how MIT does undergrad admissions? It was explained to me that they have two hurdles that someone has to get over. The first is whether or not they can do the work at MIT. Let me assure you this bar is high. If they can't cross it, they don't get in. The second is what the person will bring to the Institution. They take into account research passion, extracurriculars, recommendations, cultural background, race and what the admissions officer had for lunch. (ie. its a subjective score).

Is it fair that race is on the list? The process itself is inherently unfair with or without race on the list. Do you know that each year there are some applicants with 1600 SAT scores who are rejected? Why couldn't they have let them in, instead of the white son of a West Virginia doctor with a 1350? Because they deemed that the other guy would bring more to the Institution than the 1600 (either that or they needed someone from West Virginia).

So let me ask, can the person get the job done? I can't imagine that anyone would hire someone who couldn't. That's what MIT does with the first hurdle. After that, its all what you had for lunch.

edit:Here is the paper on the MIT study I cited
This comment was edited on Nov 17, 01:17.
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
71. Re: There is snow on the ground... Nov 16, 2005, 22:26 Fang
It is just a matter of how much so, if we are aware of it, and what we do to negate it.

I believe it's true what Ray said about racism. Also, I didn't realize that you guys grew up in the Southeast, so maybe you guys aren't aware or don't see things as much of a problem, as someone from the outside. It may be easy to write those outsiders off as "northerners" but take my example. I grew up in Austin,TX and Northern VA, not really a northerner. After I spent one summer in North Carolina, I went from being opposed to affirmative action to being a supporter of it, just from seeing the "race relations". I don't really mean overt racism.

Oh sure, overt racism is very rare. But its still very much an "us vs. them" mentality.

For example, is it common for people to believe "Man, those minorities sure have a chip on their shoulder."? I mean, anyone else see the racism here?

Another interesting fact is that it wasn't until 1979/80 that most people quit the KKK in North Carolina (due to some massacre/ambush). Before then, you had a large percentage of white adult males in it. Some would say a majority. 25 years ago. That would place our parents as being right in the middle of all that.

I wonder, how racist are former KKK members? I'm sure many are reformed, but having that ingrained into you for the first half of your life, its got to still have some effect.

Anyway, that's why I'm asking. I've known people from the southeast, and they are really good people, just unaware of the covert racism that's ingrained into them, probably from their parents, and their parents, etc. Since I have only a few data points, I wanted to check with others on outside opinions of the area.

Oh, and please don't take what I said as a "holy-than-thou" view. I realize that Ray's statement holds for me, too, as I try to continue to negate it in myself.
This comment was edited on Nov 16, 22:31.
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
11. Re: There is snow on the ground... Nov 16, 2005, 12:56 Fang
Hint -- if you're going to move, move someplace with a moderate climate -- northern Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. Stay to the cities and you won't have to worry about hicksville... at least outside of Alabama

Zathrus, I'm thinking of moving pretty soon and a lot of my friends have picked that area to live. The one thing that concerns me is the race relations in the area. (ie. Abe Lincoln is *evil*.) I take it you lived there, how did you find it?

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News Comments > Into the Black
8. Re: Stephen Hawking's cosmological riff. Nov 15, 2005, 08:44 Fang
I was never aware that there was a plan to put a man on Mars in the next 10 years.
lol, maybe he was calling the person who asked the question stupid.

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News Comments > Out of the Blue
29. Re: No subject Nov 13, 2005, 00:39 Fang
Once again we see why parenting should be a licensed event.

So said many a white supremacists.

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News Comments > BF2: Special Forces Downloads - New EA Service
25. Re: No subject Nov 11, 2005, 02:21 Fang
Aside from the over abundance of purchase options you're bitching that a T-Shirt isn't worth $12.99 to you? Where the heck do you buy your t-shirts, the salvation army?

LOL, this is too funny. A PC video game t-shirt better than a salvation army t-shirt? I don't know, let me think about that. Does the salvation army t-shirt have any holes in it?

It's not worth $12.99. In fact, they would have to pay me to wear one. So does that make it a negative value for me?

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News Comments > Into the Black
3. Gravity Tractors Nov 10, 2005, 01:21 Fang
They better get the math right though on those Gravity Tractors. Imagine: "Whoops, we forgot to convert from metric to english again... oh gee, the asteroid was really going to miss Earth before, but now it's coming right for us!"

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News Comments > Into the Black
7. Fireballs? Nov 5, 2005, 04:06 Fang
Haven't these people ever seen a shooting star before?

I guess its fitting for the release of Chicken Little.

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News Comments > Out of the Blue
43. Re: Quicktime Oct 24, 2005, 00:54 Fang
Also, you should read the quicktime download page closer. They offer one package bundled with itunes, and one without.

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News Comments > Age of Empires 4 and 5?
14. Re: No subject Oct 21, 2005, 03:59 Fang
Halo was originally designed as an RTS. This was long before Microsoft bought Bungie.

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News Comments > Sunday Consolidation
12. Re: Open Source the old systems Oct 16, 2005, 19:25 Fang
It's not $100. They are losing money on the hardware that they make up on the software.

Plus, while you, the consumer, would think its great, because you get "free" games, it detracts from the time and money that you would give to new games that they are actively developing and hoping to sell. So no, I doubt it would make good business sense to "open source" their old hardware and software.

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News Comments > Battlefield 2 Patch
94. Re: ASE Oct 5, 2005, 16:05 Fang
You could use a 3rd party browser with 1.02? Dang, I've been writing IP's down. For some reason I thought I checked to see if it worked. Maybe my ASE isn't updated. Do you have BF2 filters, or is it just a single item?

I wonder if I need to force an ASE update.

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News Comments > Sunday Tech Bits
6. Re: Acrobat Sep 25, 2005, 22:35 Fang
Hrmm, how do you uninstall the plugins?

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News Comments > Saturday Tech Bits
7. Re: Global IP protection Sep 24, 2005, 18:55 Fang
Why is nobody else disagreeing with me on this? Unsettling.

Because it isn't worth their time.

It sounds like you need to take a course in International Trade (check your local Economics department). You have a lot of misconceptions going on there. And sorry, I don't have the time to correct you. Try spouting this at some economics blog, not a gaming site. I'm sure you'll get more of a response.

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News Comments > Saturday Tech Bits
1. No subject Sep 24, 2005, 01:20 Fang
The nice thing about that Microsoft patent is that no one else can use it, if Microsoft won't let them. Of course, I'm sure they can get it at a price, but here's hoping that Microsoft keeps things too expensive for most.

Hrmmm, maybe someone should go out and patent all the obnoxious ideas out there. You can then refuse to license. I'm sure the EFF might be interested.

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1080 Comments. 54 pages. Viewing page 29.
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