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User information for Fang

Real Name Fang   
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Nickname Fang
Email Concealed by request
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Signed On Jul 19, 2000, 18:39
Total Comments 1080 (Pro)
User ID 6315
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News Comments > OnLive on Skeptics
72. Re: OnLive on Skeptics Apr 2, 2009, 14:57 Fang
So now you're saying we are right, but are arguing semantics to claim we're ignorant anyway?

You answered your own question. If you don't understand the terminology and the fact that one is relatively easy to solve and not "impossible" like so many here have claimed, and the other is rather difficult to solve (which Valve and Cisco tried to address at one point, but never got off the ground); well, I don't have time to help you.
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News Comments > OnLive on Skeptics
68. Re: OnLive on Skeptics Apr 2, 2009, 05:49 Fang
Sigh, like I said, your ignorance is showing.

Both of you cited two other completely different issues here.

The three issues are latency, bandwidth, and QoS. Yes, like I've said previously, QoS is still a concern, which will cause hiccups and graphical glitches. Bandwidth, they have addressed already, 5 Mbps for HD. That's reasonable, but what about when those with cable providers start degrading their connection for using it too much? Tell them to switch to Fios?

Please don't confuse QoS with latency. Two different problems. And if you need me to define those terms for you, well...

Yes, they have many challenges. I think the main one is will the market accept this product at their price points? And they do have technical challenges up ahead, specifically with QoS and bandwidth, where ISP's can have a big impact with their bandwidth management.

But I get tired of the misinformation about latency that gets continually spouted here.

So please, continue with the well-informed critical questions. But don't continue in your ignorance.
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News Comments > OnLive on Skeptics
65. Re: OnLive on Skeptics Apr 1, 2009, 16:32 Fang
If they were putting data centres in cities with direct fibre connections to the home this is totally doable. They aren't and so for it to be at all competitive it requires magic.

Ah, but that has been done. Millions of homes in the US have direct fiber to the home. I'm sorry if you don't. But if you are just concerned about DSL and latency, you still get pretty low latencies with that. Years ago, before I had fiber to my home, my DSL got 30 ms pings (round trip) to cities 500 miles away. Much lower than the latencies you experience with a local Xbox 360 game:

As an example, GTAIV gives 166 ms on a console in a single player game. If you have faster processors than the now aging current-gen consoles, you can make up for the additional ~30 ms of lag you get from network latency. In fact, you may experience even better responsiveness depending on the server.

And all the reporters and devs who have seen this actually in the field, attest that latency is not a problem with their system.

So please, enough with the "latency" problems. It just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
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News Comments > Op Ed
3. Re: Op Ed Apr 1, 2009, 16:13 Fang
Neither. It's a scam.

Quick! Your ignorance is showing.
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News Comments > OnLive on Skeptics
62. Re: OnLive on Skeptics Apr 1, 2009, 14:33 Fang
That shouldn't be that hard since PS3 games are just 360 ports. And it's fairly easy to port a 360 game to the Windows environment.

Ah, you guys don't realize that devs are involved in this. Of course, OnLive wouldn't do any of the porting, the devs would do it.

I don't know what OS they are running, but most likely its a Windows version. And then if all it takes is a Windows port, then getting console games on there isn't too difficult for the devs.

What would be really interesting is if PC devs see greater profits on this system (if it gets sufficient market penetration) than releasing a standalone game at all which can be pirated.

Imagine if the only way you can play the new COD6 single player is through this system. That would suck for pirates. But it's also probably why MMORPG's are seeing some of the highest revenue numbers of PC games, the lack of piracy.

A system like this could really experiment with the business models. Using the standard $50/game model is a little antiquated. Could they use something like the NetFlix model? Or a pay-to-play model? What about a rental model?

This comment was edited on Apr 1, 2009, 17:17.
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News Comments > OnLive on Skeptics
25. Re: OnLive on OnLive Skeptics Mar 31, 2009, 12:27 Fang
Based on Teh Shack's hands on impression, it doesn't sound very positive at all...

Well, given this summary from the article:

The service mainly delivers on its key features, and looks like an exciting option for those tired of constant hardware upgrads. But based on my demonstration--and as someone that demands the highest quality presentation of most games--I'd rather put the subscription cost toward an upgrade of my Nvidia card.

Actually, it sounds like pretty promising if you consider that the target market isn't "hardcore" gamers (as Stardock has eloquently emphasized about proper target markets).

But for all the technical arguments here about why this has no way of ever working technically, this presents a nice rebuttal. It's not flawless, but is it good enough for the target market (aka. the Wii market)?

Personally, I still have doubts about this working on the economics side of things. Will the market pay the subscription price and in the numbers you need to support the server farms? Especially the size of the server farms for blockbuster releases? Maybe they'll just forgo major blockbuster releases or limit the number of users, but that will make subscribers very unhappy.

The only way to really tell is to release it. I guess we'll see.

But please, all those who think they know about technology and keep harping on why this "technically" can't possibly ever work, please stop, your ignorance is showing.
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News Comments > Op Ed
24. Re: Op Ed Mar 27, 2009, 15:57 Fang
To be fair, I would believe encoding done via hardware could hit that number, with the caveat that I'm not a video encoding expert. If they had software algorithms that could hit that number, I would be very interested in seeing them as a computer scientist.

But the follow up question should have been what is the latency introduced by the decoder which would have to be done in software since that is their claim.

And the economics question of the additional cost of the hardware encoders.

Anything can be done with technology (well, almost anything). The real question is the cost, and will a business model support it.
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News Comments > Op Ed
23. Re: Op Ed Mar 27, 2009, 15:38 Fang
Trust me, I know about client-side prediction. You're ignoring the many sources of latency for even something like a single player game.

Though your RockBand example is a good case for why this tech can be "good enough." We're talking < 20ms additional latency and for the most demanding gametype for low latency, it was still playable. Albeit, annoying, but still playable. So maybe selling Guitar Hero on it is not a good idea.

But for something like a console shooter which already has auto-aim and a 30 Hz internal game clock, it will probably be acceptable to the masses.

For comparison, let's take a standard console game, with a wireless controller and hooked up to a 60 Hz display (updates every 16.7 ms). It will most likely be running at a 30 Hz internal game clock. Depending on when your input comes in, it can have a 33.3 ms delay. Though there will be a window in which an input can processed for that "time slice". So your input will really be delayed something like 4 - 37.3 ms, which would mean an average of 20.7 ms delay. This is before taking into account the wireless controller delay and the video display delay.

The flaw in many people's thinking here is that they assume that there is 0 latency in current single player games. Going from 0 to 120 ms latency is a big deal in their minds. But the true jump is more like from a current 30 ms latency to 50 ms. Sure, it's not negligible, and you have to make sure it's not the straw that breaks the camel's back. But it's not a non-starter, at least for the non "PC FPS" crowd.

Do you know the internal clock that old arcade games were running at? When you play those games, do you feel frustrated by the lack of instant responsiveness to the controls? My guess is probably not. For most gametypes, you probably will be able to deal with an additional 20 ms.

Sure you may not want to play CS in a competitive setting on a system like this, but something like Halo 3? For guys who don't even feel the need to use a mouse?

This comment was edited on Mar 27, 2009, 15:58.
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News Comments > Op Ed
18. Re: Op Ed Mar 27, 2009, 11:58 Fang
Heck, when I was back on DSL, my pings were around 25 ms along the coast.

And according to, the US has an average of 6 MB/s download speed from their testers. Of course, that's counting the number who voluntarily take their test, so it will probably skew high.

My point is that DSL is being dropped with the switch to Fiber.

They have already stated that the servers will be located on each of the coasts. That's all you need to be close to most of civilization, right?

Yes yes, they'll include a midwest server farm for "fly-over" country

So if you have 18 ms round trip times for most of your users on the West and East coasts (assuming your users are of the high tech/first adopter crowd), this is small potatoes compared to other sources of latency that's there even when you're playing with your current Xbox 360 setup. Okay, more like a big watermelon. But it's not the Titanic that everyone here is making it out to be.

But then economics is an impact here. The users who have the high speed internet to use your service at a reasonable level, are also the ones with the high end PC's and multiple game consoles. They don't need your service.

My prediction is that this will die on the vine, not because of the technical challenges but because of the business challenges in creating enough revenue to support the computing requirements.
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News Comments > Op Ed
15. Re: Op Ed Mar 27, 2009, 10:54 Fang
NKD, you do know that ping times are round trip times, right? So 50 ms isn't exactly being generous since that's implying a 100 ms ping time.

I get 18 ms when I ping along the east coast. But then I don't have a crappy cable ISP.

Don't get me wrong, I agree OnLive has formidable challenges with computing power and the underlying economics, but I believe latency is being overblown as a problem by those who don't know much about internet topology.

Though I should say while average latency for customers with non-crappy (read non-cable) ISP's shouldn't be a problem, consistency of service (which Eurogamer points out) can be troublesome.
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News Comments > OnLive Interviews
16. Re: OnLive Interviews Mar 25, 2009, 23:59 Fang
I have around 100ms latency to several services (network latency, not counting server-side processing latency which we are discounting here) that aren't a great physical distance away from me.

It sounds like you need a new ISP. What do you have, some kind of cable provider?

Yes, I'm well aware of the complexities of calculating the true "latency" in a game. I was trying not to clutter my basic point which is that most people don't realize that "local" games don't have 0 latency and it's much bigger than you'd expect, especially when taking into account FPS, screen refreshing, and the game's internal clocks. 18 ms is not a deal breaker.

And also for those who are not as well versed, ping times are round trip times, not one way times.
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News Comments > OnLive Interviews
14. Re: OnLive Interviews Mar 25, 2009, 17:15 Fang
Hrmm, maybe if I had a streaming technology that was designed to work in this scenario. We could call it something, like... OnLive!

Let's see, if I did have a proper video streaming technology the local network should add 1 ms to my latency. Let's see, that compares to the video latency of my Xbox 360 hooked directly to my tv which is running at 60 Hz (16.7 ms of video latency for the uninformed).

Yes, that 1 ms of local network latency should make a drastic impact on playability.

My point is: bad example.

Like mentioned previously, the real problem isn't the technology latency issues (there are technical tricks to solving that), but the server scalability and the economics of serving that many customers at once. The processing power required to serve a big product launch would be very expensive to maintain.

I'm not worried about the latency. I get 18 ms added when I ping to servers a couple of states away. This compares to the 40 ms of video latency when my PC will frequently hit 25 fps during games.
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
9. Re: OT - Geekyness of the day Mar 25, 2009, 12:24 Fang
Ah, but at six minutes and seven seconds after 5 AM of the 9th of August of next year, the time and date will be 05:06:07 08/09/10.

This will be the case for the next 5 years.
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News Comments > OnLive Interviews
12. Re: OnLive Interviews Mar 25, 2009, 11:44 Fang
but not in games that require fast reactions, like Burnout Paradise: the Ultimate Box

Yes, because there have never been network racing games.
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News Comments > Op Ed
6. Re: Op Ed Mar 20, 2009, 09:25 Fang
It sounds like your niece has also learned not to share her desire to play with dolls with her dad and her uncle.

Sure, there are cultural impacts, just as we have seen with this misogynist article, but we can't just outright dismiss biological differences in the make up of a person. Hormones do have an effect on behavior and desires. Sex researchers (the real ones) can clearly tell you this.

For more information on the latest neuroscience research, here is a good summary article for you:

From the article: "Several intriguing behavioral studies add to the evidence that some sex differences in the brain arise before a baby draws its first breath."

Don't make the same mistake as the other side and ignore good science because it doesn't line up with your own worldview. As always, the answer lies in the middle.

As a parent, to ignore the different needs of girls and boys does a disservice to them.
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News Comments > Op Ed
4. Re: Op Ed Mar 19, 2009, 22:15 Fang
Please don't interpret my post as saying that girls and boys aren't different in any way. As for the toys example, this has been widely discussed in parenting literature and anyone who is an experienced parent knows if you keep toy guns away from boys and give them dolls instead, they will take the dolls and pretend they are weapons. Conversely, if you just give girls things like trucks, well, you'll have a mommy truck, a daddy truck, and baby trucks. I do speak from experience. My daughter will even make a "family" out of her spaghetti noodles.

My point is that to say that girls aren't programmers because they aren't proficient in higher level mathematics is grossly inaccurate. I say that they aren't programmers because they make better choices.

We should celebrate our differences, but intelligence is not one of them.
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News Comments > Team Fortress 2 Multicore Rendering
6. Re: Team Fortress 2 Multicore Rendering Mar 19, 2009, 10:07 Fang
There are still CPU limitations to the rendering.  
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News Comments > Op Ed
1. Re: Op Ed Mar 19, 2009, 10:02 Fang
That trembling hand article is a load of crap.

A single 20 year old study, and that's why they want to make the claim that women don't make games?

And most people don't even understand statistical analysis to be able to make judgements on studies like these. That's why "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Finally, programming is only a single component of game development. Albeit an important one, but a huge amount is spent on art, animation, game design, and other "softer" practices than programming. If he's going to stereotype, please tell us why there aren't more females in art game development?

It has more to do with choice. Take a brilliant young female. She can put up with the misogynist crap like this in the programming world to make "world-changing" games, or she can decide to study biology and try to make a small impact by trying to find a cure for cancer.

The fact of the matter is that there are millions of women who are more proficient than YOU (yes, you my reader) in higher level mathematics. Ah, but that's statistics for you.

This comment was edited on Mar 19, 2009, 10:03.
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News Comments > Valve on Improving the TF2 Experience
2. Re: Valve on Improving the TF2 Experience Mar 12, 2009, 21:49 Fang
It sounds like its a problem with your router, not Steam. This is a well known problem with certain routers that have started coming out in the last few years. Verizon Fios was giving away a router that was notorious with this problem.

Or do other server browsers not crash your "internet".

My guess is that any other server browser will cause your router to lock up, and having bittorrent running for a long time, or anything else that creates multiple connections (100+) with other computers.
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
13. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 12, 2009, 15:31 Fang
Blue, you'll have to tell us if you switch mail providers to Google or someone else, and your thoughts.  
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1080 Comments. 54 pages. Viewing page 12.
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