I don't see anyone being defensive here, I think everyone has been trying to pin down what it is exactly you want out of a game. You say you want PvP but then make posts in seeming contradiction of that with talk about reason and fairness which can't really be applied to open world survival games with PvP. I'm not married to PvP playmodes, I just don't think these games would be much of anything without them. Like you said many of these games are really amateurish and incomplete, in many cases without the PvP there isn't much of a draw to playing at all. If this group of gamers you talk about is big enough then someone will make a game for them and I will definitely check it out, hopefully it is everything those people want it to be.

To be fair to games like Day Z though, I do see a lot of discussions on other forums where people talk about being griefed, bitch about PvP and when you finally get the real story out of them it essentially boils down to they got killed in some way they didn't like and only want PvP on their terms when its favorable. That sort of bullshit I won't support, no one likes losing but those people can nut up or go play games like Dead Island where its strictly coop.

I had a bit more to say but I have to wrap this up, headed out to family for christmas. Merry Christmas guys, PvP or not!

What redmask said!

Krovven wrote on Dec 24, 2013, 06:37:

Jerykk wrote on Dec 24, 2013, 02:52:
So basically, you want an open-world, massively multiplayer co-op zombie survival game with no PvP. That could work, though I have to wonder how much threat zombies would pose in the long run.

Sigh, it's like talking to a brick wall. I've already said several times that I don't want to completely remove PvP from the equation. But the games offered currently have no consequences for just killing random people along with no benefit of random people working together. Therefore I may as well just play any number of shooters if I want to PvP.

I truly do find it amusing, how people are so defensive of their survival game PvP. How precious it seems to be to them that they don't even want to see alternative games and ideas instead of all these copy and paste jobs of DayZ. With all of them, including DayZ, being very amateurish and really none of them being very good or even completed.

The discussion is going on many websites and forums currently, with most defenders of PvP not even being open to other possibilities.
And a whole lot of stories from the PvPers saying "I tried to play nice and work with others, but I was just killed by them." Then they wonder why folks want to see something different.

I'd LOVE to see something between dayz and dead rising like you mentioned. I don't see why it always has to be zombies though. I didn't like dead rising much, it was a little silly if you ask me. I also found coop in that annoying because if the person you tried to team up with was a higher level they always had awesome stuff and would kill everything before you go to it. It was super annoying, I'd have a pistol they'd have an electroshock jump slam whatever thinger. They were just griefing me all the time ruining my game by not letting me join in the zombie killing.

Krovven wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 19:24:

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 18:34:
By the way, if you want to completely eliminate griefing try playing Rust on a pvp OFF server.

No thanks. Rust looks like absolute crap and zero fun to play.

I'm not interested in doing mundane work tasks in a game. "Somewhere between Dead Island and DayZ", does not equal building shacks in the wilderness with a bunch of naked dudes running around killing chickens with rocks.

My nephew and I have enjoyed it immensely! The crafting tasks don't take long at all. We usually do some mining while running from one base to another. The shacks are a great way to protect yourself from being killed (or griefed if you insist on calling it that) and the tension of being inside one hiding while people are running passed can be pretty intense!

Krovven wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 19:13:

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 18:26:
I hear it all the time, someone logs in, says they've played for 15 minutes gotten killed twice that that they hate this dumb game and leave. Happened in rust, dayz, etc. People in the forums would say they've been griefed, people would ask how, they would say they were minding their own business and someone killed them. Would you say they've been griefed? I wouldn't.

What was the reason for the other player to kill that person if all they had was a "rock" as you said before? No reason at all, they didn't even have equipment to steal, so yes, I call that griefing. In this type of game, if you are killing another player simply because they are in view on your screen, that equates to griefing.

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 18:26:
Not sure where you are going with your last sentence. I SEE the cause and effect and am discussing portions of it so???

Schools in... CAUSE - player A gets killed repeatedly by other players while they are trying to explore and fight off zombies. EFFECT - player A learns to shoot other players on sight. Vicious cycle ensues where it's extremely rare for random players to help one another or work together.

Griefing is rampant in most games that players have means to grief. Give someone an environment that has zero repercussion for it and that's what they will do all the time.

Considering this needs to be explained to you speaks volumes. But I'm guessing you are one of the people that shoots other players on sight.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult for some people to comprehend that not everyone wants these kinds of mechanics. And that we'd like to see another game with different mechanics, more focused on coop.

krowen lol i already said I understand that. And I'm actually one of THE most cooperative people. I already gave some examples but here are more. I run passed people all the time that are doing their thing and I saY HELLO in in game voice chat. So I am standing there saying hello to a random survivor stranger without killing them or harassing them. I randomly put things in peoples storage boxes, i give food to people who ask. If a bear is chasing someone I try to kill it. For some of these things I've been rewarded or talked to, in other cases they have turned and killed me on site.
logging into a game like dayz or rust means that people are going to mess with you. It's like walking dead. If you have a stockpile of things, people will want to take it. If you take pvp out of it, why would you even stockpile things? Why would you collect guns ammo and beans? What POINT would there be to either of these survival games without conflict?
Now a game with different mechanics sure! They are poor comparisons but let's take something like minecraft or terraria. Cooperative play, crafting, building etc. PVE.
Give me an example, tell me what you want to do in a survival game that's cooperative maybe that will help. What is it you want to do in this apocalypse world with your friends? What game mechanics would you like to see?
I'd also be interested to see how you'd like to encourage coop. Not being sarcastic or snotty at all I'm completely serious.

By the way, if you want to completely eliminate griefing try playing Rust on a pvp OFF server. You will likely quickly find yourself bored as there isn't enough other stuff to do without the player tension. If you think that is a design flaw then again, I'm not sure this type of game is for you. Rust as it stands right now (alpha) is about collecting things to keep you alive and protect yourself from animals, zombies and others. Zombies can one hit kill you if you aren't equipped, same with bears, you can starve to death in about 30 mins from starting a new guy if you don't find something to eat. Once most players are geared up I've found that they leave noobs alone.
Also play using a fricking MIC. Local area chat can do wonders to keep you alive. If you run into someone in the forest try saying friendly outloud, say hey when you run passed someone, drop some meat, toss out some resources, randomly give a guy a tool.
We had some guys come knocking in our door in rust demanding our blood. I (in my best grandmother voice) told them that we were busy baking cookies and they would have to come back in the morning. We put some blood outside in a bag and hoped that would suffice. It didn't. They gave us time like they said, came back, and blew our base open and took all our stuff.
We were griefed? No we laughed our BUTTS off and it was another awesome pvp moment.

This comment was edited on Dec 23, 2013, 19:02.

Krovven wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 18:10:

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 17:16:
harlock most of the people complaining about being "Griefed" have not actually been griefed, they've just gotten killed, some of them ONE TIME and are cry babies.

You'd do better with your opinions to not claim to know what others have experienced.

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 17:16:
Also, many of the people who say "hey some dude killed me and all i had was my rock" do the EXACT same dang thing as soon as THEY get a gun.

Gee, I wonder why? Congrats on coming to the same conclusion as the others here, but not being able to see the obvious cause and effect.

I hear it all the time, someone logs in, says they've played for 15 minutes gotten killed twice that that they hate this dumb game and leave. Happened in rust, dayz, etc. People in the forums would say they've been griefed, people would ask how, they would say they were minding their own business and someone killed them. Would you say they've been griefed? I wouldn't.

Not sure where you are going with your last sentence. I SEE the cause and effect and am discussing portions of it so???

harlock wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 14:32:

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 10:59:
Seriously everyone complaining about griefing, these games are obviously not for you. THE ENTIRE POINT OF THESE GAMES IS PVP.

PVP is not the same as griefing at all... if thats what you think, then i weep for you.. like, woe is you

harlock most of the people complaining about being "Griefed" have not actually been griefed, they've just gotten killed, some of them ONE TIME and are cry babies. PVP and greifing are definitely not the same. These survival games are made for you to be scared and alone. You will not survive unless you take a chance on teaming up with a complete stranger who could kill you at any minute. The tension and the drama CAN be amazing. I'd definitely agree it would be nice if there was a little more incentive to team up somehow because raiding definitely can be more productive than being a nice guy.
Also, many of the people who say "hey some dude killed me and all i had was my rock" do the EXACT same dang thing as soon as THEY get a gun.

Creston wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 12:20:

goatee21 wrote on Dec 23, 2013, 11:01:
SO....it doesn't attach my comment to who I'm replying obviously lol. Sorry all, I was replying to individual posts while I read them.

It's easiest to just use the Quote feature.

AHA!!!!

SO....it doesn't attach my comment to who I'm replying obviously lol. Sorry all, I was replying to individual posts while I read them.

There IS a bonus for grouping and cooperating, YOU DON"T GET GRIEFED.

Seriously everyone complaining about griefing, these games are obviously not for you. THE ENTIRE POINT OF THESE GAMES IS PVP.

Rust will let you buy a server and mess with lots of rules. YOu can even turn pvp off. You will then find that you are QUICKLY bored because the zombies aren't really a threat and you are now playing a different version of minecraft. If you don't like pvp these kind of games just plain aren't for you.
CHEATING is a different story all together.

You drink until your stomache is FULL (you know, you don't feel like drinking anymore????) then you are good to go.

The game is not bad at all, I thought it was fun! Not bad for 7 bucks at all if you like sim type games. I wish the reviews in game were more in depth but over all it's got some neat features and is enjoyable.

Might have something to do with me putting my preorder in roughly......an hour ago. But yeah I haven't seen anything about ps4 day one editions. I ordered from amazon because I just wanted to get the console not buy some huge convoluted bundle.

My ps4 preorder shows delivery date of January 2nd, so if that's still the holiday season then there you go.

loomy wrote on Jul 16, 2012, 15:01:

goatee21 wrote on Jul 16, 2012, 11:29:
I spent twenty on the operation arrowhead and am using arma II free for the rest. I've EASILY enjoyed twenty bucks worth of game time in dayz. It's been a lot of fun so far. Most people who have complained about the game are whiners who probably got killed or think the game is too hard.
The game IS brutal, it's supposed to be. Death sucks, it's supposed to. it takes a long time to run across the map, it's supposed too. Guns attract lots of zombies, they are supposed to. Trusting or not trusting other players is a difficult choice, it's supposed to be.

arma 2 is one of the worst games ever, and dayz cant fix that.

in dayz you run around collecting stuff on the ground. the game ends when someone sees you before you see them.

what a tour de force. dont believe the dayz hype

Loomy, this kind of game obviously isn't for you then. It's ALPHA and there are already so many features I won't bother listing them all.
tension
real weather effects
dehydration
hunger
shaking from pain
drivable vehicles
tension
zombies
small things like filling water bottles from ponds, combining clips, retrieving arrows from zombie corpses, on and on
PERMADEATH - this is what gets most whiners like loomy. If you run around like a COD fan boy you WILL die...over and over and over and over.
tension
A near constant state of dread.
An absolutely pounding heart when you see another human.
Conflicting emotions.
Absolute gaming euphoria the first time you fight off someone trying to kill you and YOU instead are the victor and take their life giving gear.
Even in alpha the bugs in this game mostly revolve around inventory. It's pretty easy to make some of your gear disappear. But if you play it smart, get out of heavily populated areas, you can be nearly fully geared inside of twenty minutes.

Dont listen to loomy, he probably played twenty minutes, got killed, didn't read any directions and rage quit.
day z is a LOT of fun.

I spent twenty on the operation arrowhead and am using arma II free for the rest. I've EASILY enjoyed twenty bucks worth of game time in dayz. It's been a lot of fun so far. Most people who have complained about the game are whiners who probably got killed or think the game is too hard.
The game IS brutal, it's supposed to be. Death sucks, it's supposed to. it takes a long time to run across the map, it's supposed too. Guns attract lots of zombies, they are supposed to. Trusting or not trusting other players is a difficult choice, it's supposed to be.

The mod dayz is really fricking great. The only bug that really bugs me right now is inventory. Everything else is minor. Its pretty amazing really. Toss up a reply if you want to hear more. I've logged a couple weekends in it.

been in the map a bit today. It's a stress test so be warned that its pretty dang jumpy. Hopefully some optimizations will make it run a bit better otherwise it's pretty hard to play to give them any stress test data. I hadn't driven anything yet so running around in the various vehicles was fun. I hopped in a chopper expecting the controls to be like bc2 and they were backwards, I had to bail. Haven't made it in a jet yet but I can't imagine I'd be any good. Overall the beta has gotten me very excited about my preorder. I'm hopeful the hit detection won't be as big a deal a little farther out cause right now it pisses me off pretty good.

Uh no, they say right in number ten it's one of the MANY things they are testing.