User information for Peter

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Peter
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shponglefan
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December 4, 2008
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420 (Amateur)
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54594
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420 Comments. 21 pages. Viewing page 6.
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155.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 19, 2010, 12:52
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 19, 2010, 12:52
Dec 19, 2010, 12:52
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2010, 02:39:
However, "safe" games and genres weren't the only things that publishers funded, unlike today.

So games like Little Big Planet, Portal, Spore, various rhythm games (Guitar Hero, DJ Hero, etc), Flower, Afrika, Mirror's Edge, etc, don't exist?

It is a fact that publishers in the 90's took more risks than they do now. That is why there were a lot more genres back then.

All those genres still exist, dude. The one thing I will grant you is that the publishing landscape has changed somewhat (especially with the rise of development costs and the internet). But your underlying argument that things have stagnated is patently false.

edited to add: Btw, I was trying to think of what was so innovative about the 90's genre-wise. Really, FPS and RTS games are mostly it, and maybe survival horror, although that's more of an action/adventure niche. Pretty much every other genre grew out of the 1980's, not the 90's.

So, big-budget mech sims, space sims, adventure games, flight sims, tactical shooters, turn-based strategy games, etc, are all going to eventually see a resurgence?

I can't predict the future. But all of these still exist today. Adventure games in particular, another "dead" genre has been nicely revived over the last several years.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2010, 14:15.
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151.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 19, 2010, 01:28
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 19, 2010, 01:28
Dec 19, 2010, 01:28
 
space captain wrote on Dec 19, 2010, 01:08:
Jerykk wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 23:58:
Just because many people believe they are correct does not mean they are correct.

Go repeat that in front of a mirror for a little while

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150.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 19, 2010, 01:25
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 19, 2010, 01:25
Dec 19, 2010, 01:25
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 23:58:
What exactly are you disputing here?

Everything. Rebuttal in summary form:

1) You keep arguing about which games that person played without knowing any of what they actually have played; once again making stuff up. I'm not going to debate stuff based primarily on your imagination. My point was this: I think it's unfair and even a little douchy to criticize someone's tastes simply because you don't agree with it.

2) I guess the only thing to do here is fall back on dictionary definitions then: "role playing game: a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master". Cool, debate over.

3) You're all over the map arguing about the 90's. It seems more like it's not about innovation at all, but rather that the "big publishers" don't publish your favorite genres any more. You're not a 90's era gamer by any chance?

4) The fact there was a resurgence of CRPGs in the late 90's is precisely why those predictions were--at the time they were made--wrong. Trying to spin it otherwise is like claiming in the late 1930's that Europe was about to enter a time of peace and prosperity, but then ignoring that whole World War 2 thing.

The future cannot be predicted. All I know is that every time someone tries to claim a certain genre "dead" something comes along to prove them wrong.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2010, 01:54.
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147.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 22:11
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 22:11
Dec 18, 2010, 22:11
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 20:47:
It doesn't matter what RPGs he played before Oblivion and Morrowind. Even if you ignore the fact that Oblivion and Morrowind were weak RPGs, he still can't be considered an RPG fan if he's only enjoyed two RPGs. To be considered a fan of a genre, you need to have played and enjoyed a large number of games within that genre. This is common sense, yet you continue to argue against it.

Again, that's not what was said. What was originally said was, "Both Morrowind and Oblivion were the first RPGS that I could ever get into."

You're reading into things without enough facts.

It is not unreasonable to see what this holds for the future.

You mean like back when Ultima VIII was released and people decried it for its move towards action/platform based gameplay and started predicting the downfall of the CRPG genre? Oh wait, that was over 15 years ago...

If history has shown anything, predicting doom 'n gloom for the future is a pointless exercise.

So what you're basically saying is that if the majority of people are wrong, we should just agree with them.

Uh, when it comes to language and common usage of terms, usage of the majority is what matters; that's the objective standard. That's why your own private definitions don't really matter.

The industry today is a completely different beast than the industry of the 90's. In the 90's, publishers took risks and tried new things.

It really wasn't that different. It only looks that way from a historical rose-coloured glasses viewpoint. Yes, there was some innovation (a lot of it due to technological advances). But there were still a lot of copy-cats chasing the almighty dollar. Or did you forget all the Doom clones, glut of RTSs, and goofy FMV games?

This comment was edited on Dec 18, 2010, 22:30.
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141.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 16:24
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 16:24
Dec 18, 2010, 16:24
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 15:42:
Fucking exactly.

Was I the only alive and gaming in the early-to-mid 90's?
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140.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 16:22
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 16:22
Dec 18, 2010, 16:22
 
Sepharo wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 14:17:
shponglefan wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 14:00:
As opposed to in the mid 90's when people were calling the CRPG genre "dead"?

It would have been like Doom winning best Adventure game of the year.

That's not the point. You said "future of the genre". There was a time when people thought that CRPGs had no future. But then along comes Black Isle and suddenly there are RPGs that everyone heralds as the Greatest Things Ever(TM).

You don't know what the future holds. It's silly to suggest that RPG gaming-dom is toast just because a game like ME2 wins a meaningless award.
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138.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 14:57
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 14:57
Dec 18, 2010, 14:57
 
Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 14:37:
This right here hits the nail on the head and while this one dude said Space Captain and spongephlegm or whatever were wiping the floor with the other guys... I think it's the other way around, especially due to this tiny last thing Seph said.

Except that it's a pretty silly thing to say, given that nobody can predict the future of anything. Like I already said, back in the mid-90's, people thought CRPGs were dead**. This was before Black Isle studios and the games people keep referencing as RPG benchmarks. Nevermind that they had a ~15-20 year history prior to that.

Reality is, genres evolve. RPGs are not immutable and if it wasn't for many earlier CRPGs--many of which wouldn't fit the criteria some people think are so important to RPGs--you wouldn't have the very CRPGs people are using to try to define RPG video games.

** (Also ironic is that Diablo is given credit as helping revive the genre.)

This comment was edited on Dec 18, 2010, 15:30.
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135.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 14:00
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 14:00
Dec 18, 2010, 14:00
 
Sepharo wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 12:00:
No but it's a pretty shitty indication for the future of the genre.

As opposed to in the mid 90's when people were calling the CRPG genre "dead"?
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132.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 11:56
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 11:56
Dec 18, 2010, 11:56
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 04:45:
He said he didn't like RPGs except for Oblivion and Morrowind. If you only like the games that have the weakest RPG elements, it is reasonable to assume that you don't like the RPG genre in general. If you only like one or two games within the genre, you are obviously not a fan of the genre, especially when the two games you enjoyed have minimal role-playing.

Actually, what he specifically said was they were the first RPGs he could get into. You don't know which RPGs he's played and also leveling a criticism that he doesn't like RPGs because they don't fit
your view of what a "good" RPG is extremely judgmental. As others have said, you're not the arbiter of RPGs.

Unfortunately, apathy is not a compelling argument.

No, it's not apathy. It's that you're arguing about the definition of a term when what really matters from an objective viewpoint is how people actually use the term. And in practice, it's used quite broadly. You can claim that your definition is the most logical on the planet, but if no one actually uses it... so what?

It's like claiming you drive the fastest car on the planet, but if you're not out there breaking speed records, it doesn't mean a helluva lot.

Fair enough. I take issue with role-playing even being in the description at all but at least they used "shooter" as the main genre. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for other games like Oblivion, Diablo, Mass Effect, etc. Hell, Mass Effect 2 won the award for best RPG at the VGAs.

So? Why does this bother you so much? Does it make you enjoy Baldur's Gate less to know that *gasp* people call Diablo or Mass Effect an "RPG"?
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127.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 02:59
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 02:59
Dec 18, 2010, 02:59
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 17, 2010, 21:33:
Not so in my case, I liked Oblivion. I don't understand why saying it wasn't an RPG is a criticism.

The original criticism was that a poster here wasn't a fan of RPGs because they liked Oblivion and Morrowind, but not so much other RPGs. IOW, they apparently weren't a fan of the "right" RPGs, therefore, they aren't a RPG fan or some such crap.

Really, it's just the typical "you're not a member of the club because you like different shite" type of douchy fanboyishness.
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126.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 18, 2010, 02:56
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 18, 2010, 02:56
Dec 18, 2010, 02:56
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 01:37:
Marketing called Borderlands an RPG

Actually, they don't. They call it a "first person role-playing shooter". They also refer to reward systems of "action role playing games" and "RPG character progression".

Reading what they have on their site, it's marketed primarily as a shooter with borrowed RPG elements. Nobody is pretending this is anything in the same class as Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment. So why is this bothering you so much?

Jerykk wrote on Dec 18, 2010, 01:37:
If you don't care about labels or definitions, I'm not sure why you're bothering with this debate.

Because:

a) There's a third side to this debate. It's the "it doesn't really matter/get over it" side.

and b) Boredom.

This comment was edited on Dec 18, 2010, 03:15.
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121.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 17, 2010, 13:56
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 17, 2010, 13:56
Dec 17, 2010, 13:56
 
Verno wrote on Dec 17, 2010, 13:39:
People seem more interested in using the RPG term as backup for their derogatory speeches about games they dislike anyways, let's be honest here.

True that.
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120.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 17, 2010, 13:54
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 17, 2010, 13:54
Dec 17, 2010, 13:54
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 17, 2010, 13:12:
When I said "when RPG started" I was referring to pen and paper RPGs, the origins of the genre.

But we're talking video games, not PnP.
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117.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 17, 2010, 12:19
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 17, 2010, 12:19
Dec 17, 2010, 12:19
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 16, 2010, 23:24:
Well if you want to spin it another way I guess you could say Jerykk and I and the others are resisting the word evolving into something else. When RPGs started it meant, definitively, what we are saying it means.

Except it didn't. Many early RPGs were quite simple in design and didn't feature the criteria that some here in this thread seem to think is so important to the RPG definition. For example, per Jerykk's list, the original Wizardry wouldn't qualify as an RPG.

The definitions people are using here tend to apply to a limited set of RPGs, that's it.
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109.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 16, 2010, 16:03
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 16, 2010, 16:03
Dec 16, 2010, 16:03
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 16, 2010, 15:07:
You get people complaining that Fallout 3, Borderlands and Oblivion suck because they're terrible RPGs. Then don't consider them RPGs!

That seems to be a problem with expectations. People need to think outside the box a little.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 2010, 16:29.
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108.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 16, 2010, 15:59
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 16, 2010, 15:59
Dec 16, 2010, 15:59
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 16, 2010, 15:04:
So you're saying this doesn't describe Final Fantasy 7 to whatever they're at now (as well as Metal Gear, actually.)

I would say that JRPGs are more diverse and some of them offer more freedom of choice than most PC gamers give them credit for. For example series like Growlanser, Star Ocean, Persona, etc. I will admit that on the whole, they tend to be more linear and focused than most CRPGs, but they also tend to be more character/story driven as a result.
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102.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 16, 2010, 13:25
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 16, 2010, 13:25
Dec 16, 2010, 13:25
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 16, 2010, 12:15:
The problem with the opposing viewpoints is that they really aren't supported by logic or reason. Their argument seems to consist of "If it calls itself an RPG, it must be an RPG!"

No, the argument is that if something is called an RPG as per the commonly accepted usage of the term in the modern lexicon of gaming, then its a RPG. If you don't want to use the same terms as everyone else, that's your call. But you're not the decider.
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101.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 16, 2010, 13:22
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 16, 2010, 13:22
Dec 16, 2010, 13:22
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 16, 2010, 04:04:
The most commonly accepted definition is too broad and in many cases, contradictory. For example, games like Diablo, Oblivion and Borderlands claim to be RPGs. Why? Because they have stats, loot and leveling. However, many other games share those same features, yet do not claim to be RPGs. In God of War, you can choose from a wide assortment of weapons and then level them up as you progress through the game. Call of Duty has leveling in multiplayer and you unlock new weapons, gear and perks as you reach higher ranks. Practically every genre these days incorporates leveling of some sort. It's become so generic that it can no longer be used as the sole qualifier for RPGs. If you refuse to accept this, then you must believe that Dawn of War 2, Call of Duty, Battlefield, Darksiders, Command & Conquer 4, and God of War are all RPGs. If you truly believe that, then the word has lost all meaning and the whole concept of genres might as well not exist.

Here's the thing, though. It's okay to have overlap. Game genres as a whole are not nearly as rigidly defined as they used to be, since advances in technology and game mechanics have effectively blurred mechanics that used to be isolated to a single genre.

Games like Diablo, Oblivion, etc, are often (at least insofar as I've seen) characterized as "action RPGs". Again, overlap between broad genres.

The way you define RPGs, they might as well not have existed until Baldur's Gate came out. Many old-school dungeon crawlers, for example, wouldn't qualify as RPGs. Neither would many JRPGs (i.e. Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, etc). Yet what else are you going to call them: "story-driven turn based adventure games with loot and leveling mechanics"?

It's not a bad thing there's overlap. It's not a bad thing that other genres are borrowing elements originally confined to RPGs and blurring the lines. Just because everything doesn't fit in a nice neat box is okay.
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100.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 16, 2010, 13:01
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 16, 2010, 13:01
Dec 16, 2010, 13:01
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 16, 2010, 03:53:
Again though, words have meaning. If RPG can mean anything then what the fuck is the point of the term?

That's not what I said, though.
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94.
 
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced
Dec 15, 2010, 23:40
94.
Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Announced Dec 15, 2010, 23:40
Dec 15, 2010, 23:40
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 15, 2010, 13:44:
Japanese RPGs are a separate category to me because they're not RPGs and barely games. 100 hours of grinding, 80 hours of overwrought video, not a single choice to be made.

You don't actually play JRPGs do you?

The problem with this whole "what is an RPG" debate is that too many people have a narrow CRPG-centric view of RPG gaming. It's okay to have RPGs that don't fit a narrow mold, and it's not going to make those RPGs people have in their little box any less of an RPG. It just means the real-world definition of an "RPG" is a little broader.
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