I'd much rather use Steam than the "EA Link" or "EA Downloader", in fact I refuse to use the latter at all. I don't mind some EA products but they don't have a great track record for incorporating purchased technology into their products. They bought up some MMO technology and IPs, all of those are long dead. Their "portal" site has seen something like 5 different versions just in the past two years. EA Downloader/Link has gone through 4 major revisions and is still absolutely terrible compared to Steam. Doesn't leave room for a lot of confidence in a theoretical acquisition. I hope this is indeed all just hypothetical stuff.

Maybe this is a smart strategy? Instead of trying to make a huge, blockbuster game that must appeal to everyone and therefore have photorealistic graphics, orchestral scores, Hollywood voice acting, etc, why not just find a target audience and make games for them? Niche games have been sorely lacking since the 90's. Whatever happened to space sims? Vehicular combat? Mech sims? Adventure games? You never see American developers even touch these even though, as you said, there is a market for niche games and it's easy to make a profit because you don't need to sell as many units. Right now the game industry is screwing itself by trying to make every game equivalent to a summer blockbuster movie. Big budget, big hype but competing in a completely oversaturated market and has to sell tons of units just to break even. The key to selling more games isn't slapping on DRM but rather expanding your horizons and making games for specific audiences that aren't catered to by everyone else.

Not going to address the rest of your post because xXBatmanXx gets his panties in a twist if anyone makes long posts around here but you made some good points and I'll definitely think about what you said.

For what I quoted above though, see my earlier post about trying to trim development costs. Part of the problem with Mech games and stuff like that is the genre itself dried up to lack of sales(for whatever reason). Adventure is making a bit of a comeback now but it'll probably never be like it used to. Sometimes you can't just sell to a niche because there isn't enough money there to sustain a company. Publishers have started this trend of buying up developers and consolidating them into big companies then targeting the mass market with their newer games(mass sequels ugh).

It's a tough spot, there's basically three big companies who own most of the market nowadays and they aren't interested in niche stuff for the most part It makes it really hard for a newer company to break into it. Maybe some of this stuff will change going forward, I certainly hope so because I miss MechWarrior, Freespace 2 and all of those other niche titles.

At least he acknowledges what went wrong with Doom 3 and would not want to deliver the same content under a new title.

Yeah for years they were really quiet when people asked them about the monster closet crap and acted like it was great game design. Doom 3 was the first id title that I felt like I wasted money on, so it's good to see them acknowledge it's flaws and hopefully they can get back to making fun games.

DRM these days isn't used to prevent piracy, they've given up there. They use it to stop mass piracy in what's called the "0 day" period, basically meaning release day and for as long as they possibly can to maximize sales. EA was pretty successful with this for Mass Effect's release week, it went 9 days without being properly cracked yet the DRM still let pirates whet their appetite on the game and they supposedly converted "a substantial amount" into sales.

Fine. Oblivion had no DRM apart from a single CD check. It sold ~ 4 million copies. Your argument has no validity. Games without DRM sell perfectly fine.

Oblivion was pretty highly anticipated and advertised as well. You also forgot that Oblivion was heavily pirated in addition to selling 4 million copies Their issue isn't just "did we sell lots of copies?" its more "we want to make as much money as we can because this stuff is really expensive now".

Companies aren't content with putting up with piracy anymore, they are looking for ways around it and sadly for us PC gaming enthusiasts, many are finding them. I agree with you that piracy isn't the sole reason for their woes, the platform itself has many problems totally unrelated to the situation like shifting hardware targets, driver/compatibility issues and etc. Piracy is something that they can try to workaround though and that's what they're doing for better or for worse.

The trouble with trimming development costs is that gamers expect better graphics, a better story thats well written, professional voice acting and etc now, all of that stuff is crazy expensive. Personally I miss the old days where someone could make a game in a year instead of 3+ and it didn't cost 5million. Oh well, such is life.

I'm not defending it, I'm just saying this is what is happening and why. I understand both positions, I don't think it's fair for developers to blame everything on piracy but likewise I think its really unfair for users to say it doesn't matter at all and that they should shut up and take it like men or something silly.

I don't like piracy and won't defend it. But despite piracy, gaming has grown into a 16 (?) billion dollar business. Somehow I doubt it's all so fucking doom and gloom as several developer retards would like to have us believe.

Sadly MMO games and consoles have more to do with gaming growing into a 16billion dollar industry and that's what concerns me. I used to see a lot more blockbusters every year on our platform, now we get console retreads and a few big titles. Hopefully things will improve with digital distribution picking up.
This comment was edited on Aug 2, 01:28.

Yeah for the life of me I can't figure out how to kill a good player in control of the Scout unless I'm a Pyro. This game has been the best money I've ever spent though, they've already added so much to it, other developers should take note!

xXBatmanXx,

Sorry you feel that way but most of us have been discussing things just fine without you, feel free to ignore my posts if people using their brain bothers you so much. I don't recall where Blue said that this place was only for stupid people and short comments, maybe you could point it out for me. I will make an effort to trim down my posts if you make an effort to not be such a jerk
This comment was edited on Aug 2, 00:05.

I thought they blew all of their money sending Richard Garriot to the moon!

You know, I never thought about it that way and you're right that is pretty amusing. I guess it's that whole concept of progression, it's so easy in the games and it's much more difficult in real life. It's easy to see why people are attracted to it now that I think about it.

Yes, I apologize for being such a corporate shill. When I paid money for a game at a store I didn't realize I was supporting a neo-facist government who is just trying to keep us all down. Thank you for setting me free.

Information wants to be free

Did you just watch Hackers or something? Geez, get lost if you don't have anything worthwhile to add to the discussion, the rest of us are debating actual points back and forth. I actually enjoy learning from my peers, even if it means I was wrong in the first place. You're just trolling.

This comment was edited on Aug 1, 20:54.

Or they could have just downloaded it and hopped online immediately. There are many players who don't care about SP and MP is the main attraction of CoD4.

You're just dodging here. Saying that there isn't any lost revenue is false, there is. Quantifying what that amount is doesn't matter, the publisher wants to maximize their profits on their investment.

Deus Ex did get a second chance. It's called Deus Ex: Invisible War. Unfortunately, it was crap and sold as such.

I'm aware that Deus Ex received a sequel, I am one of the many unhappy owners of it. I said games like Deus Ex, games that try to innovate, add unique content and features that aren't present in other titles. These types of games require more of an investment and are riskier in the current climate.

Also true. However, if you make good games and you make profits, you should be happy regardless of how many people pirated your game.

If you made a $100 profit, thats still a profit. Should you be happy? If you really believe this I'd love to see you put your money where your mouth is, work crazy hours on a product and watch someone download it in 2 hours, play it for nothing then proclaim it wasn't worth paying for. All too convenient. I don't see how you think you can justify telling another person that they should be happy they made any money at all when they could've made more. But that's fine, you're getting your wish - publishers have been abandoning my favorite platform in droves because of exactly your type of attitude. I for one am not happy being left with a few major titles backported from consoles, casual games and WoW clones being the entirety of my gaming experiences on the PC.

Allowed? I'm not saying that developers can't make money. I'm saying that they shouldn't whine when they make a profit.

You are saying if any profit is made they shouldn't whine. Do you even understand the concept of profit? Profit can be a penny. It's any money you made in sales revenue minus your operating expenses. I don't think you even grasp what you're saying. So if they made $100,000 in profit they can whine but if they made $1,000,000 in profit they can't complain? Who draws that line, you? Lost money is lost money, of course they are going to both complain and figure out ways to get it back or move their product elsewhere. There's a whole business side to gaming you obviously don't want to understand. No one is saying piracy is the SOLE factor but it has become much easier and accessible to the general public over the past 5 years, people are doing it in larger numbers and it's definitely a contributing factor to the PC gaming industries problem. You're saying they should ignore it and thats precisely what they shouldn't do, they should look at alternative distribution channels and other ways to maximize their profits so that they can keep making great games.

The bottom line is that a good product will sell well and a poor one will not.

Beyond Good and Evil anyone? I can go through Metacritic and find more examples of great games that didn't sell for a number of reasons. You can't lump it all together like that man.

Every dollar amount stated as lost to piracy is vastly overblown, be it for software, music or movies. The folks pulling those numbers out of their posteriors do not have any real data to site, so they make things up as they go along. Also, a vast, vast majority of "pirates" never intend on purchasing the "pirated" software/music/movie, so they cannot be count as lost "sales", as previously stated.

I agree that the music and movie industries trump up their numbers, I don't agree about the games industry. Publishers whined and gamers responded "of course publishers just make stuff up, I wont believe it until the developers say it". The developers whined and people say "oh theyre just lying or exaggerating!". They can't win with you guys.

More DRM does not equal less piracy. Usually, it causes the reverse because potential customers do not want to fight to play a game they just purchased.

Yes it can, see my Mass Effect example. DRM itself is not inherently evil, see Steam as a good example of DRM. DRM done well is transparent to the user, sadly in the past many DRM companies have screwed this up to the point where consumers hate the whole concept blindly.

Sins of a Solar Empire has been sited numerous times as a shining example of a no-DRM game that has done very well, even though it is a PC-only title.

Sins of a Solar Empire is a niche title for a niche market with a small budget. It's sold under 400,000 copies worldwide, you can't even compare to a blockbuster title, they are worlds apart in every aspect. It's core audience is adults 19-34, a market far less prone to piracy. Wake me up when Stardock makes a high budget FPS and tries to sell it on the PC, we'll see how their profits look. I'm happy no-DRM fits them well but it doesn't mean their situation can be applied to every other developer in the industry.
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 20:42.

ToS != EULA. An EULA has not been tested in court. Terms of Services have been tested ever since the phone companies have existed. All those broadband companies who cap bandwidth or limit how much you can download? Those are in the Terms of Service.

You're right, I was using the wrong terminology.

No. The Glider application was judged to constitute copyright infringement. Distributing an application which has no purpose besides to commit copyright infringement, and generating funds off of it is illegal. This has nothing to do with your property. Blizzard is not suing people who run Glider, nor are they saying what you can't do and do with your computer.

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2008-07-15/20080715231135963.shtml

I read the article in it's entirety previously and I don't agree with the judge's decision. I do however stand corrected on some of the details, thank you.

This was definitely true 6 months ago, neither were in great shape in anything but synthetic benchmarks and very popular titles like HL2. ATI has made great strides with CrossFire nowadays though, it's scaling much better than SLI and any glance at a benchmarking site will confirm this.

Personally I'm dubious of the gains SLI and CrossFire provide versus the vastly increased heat and power usage you suffer as a result. SLI/CrossFire is mainly targeting very high resolution scenarios like playing on a 30" monitor. I frequently come across uninformed people who think that they need it for playing games at 1680x1050 on their 22" monitor. An 8800GT or Radeon 4850 by itself is more than adequate for current games on the market at resolutions below 1920x1200.

Okay. Again, this didn't stop CoD4 from being a top seller on the PC. Would these pirates have bought the game had it not been for piracy? Who knows. All I know is that CoD4 has been selling very well for a PC shooter.

No one can say with 100% certainty but it doesn't take a genius to follow the logic that if someone enjoyed the product enough to play it for hours on end and hop online then there's a pretty big chance that revenue was lost.

If the games you make are profitable, people will invest in you.

Exactly. The smaller game developers and publishers might not get a second chance if their profit margins aren't big enough. Game quality doesn't dictate profit margins, your revenue less your expenses does. There are a number of "good" titles that won't be receiving sequels or followups despite their quality. Again no one is saying piracy is the sole factor but it certainly has a negative effect on the market.

In general, good games tend to be profitable. If you make a game that people like, they usually buy it. If you sell enough units to continue making games, you should be happy. Game development isn't going to make you rich. If you only care about money, you're in the wrong business. If you're in this business, you are doing it because you love making games.

That's the problem though, you can't generalize this. "Good" is subjective, you're talking about quality of product and quality of product in this market doesn't always ensure sales. There are a variety of factors that affect whether or not your title is profitable - marketing, support, piracy, channel availability, etc. You can't broadstroke it and say "well make good games and you get monies!!".

Why are you quoting something I never said? I said that CoD4 PC sold well and did a lot more than just break even, despite rampant piracy. Would they have sold more without piracy? Maybe. Neither you nor I (nor anyone else) can know that. All I know is that CoD4 PC sold well and was profitable.

That's exactly what you were saying though, just not in those words. You're essentially saying that it made a profit and that should be good enough. Why are you the sole judge of how much money they are allowed to make? They made an excellent game that's popular and should be entitled to reap the rewards of doing so. Saying "well it sold over 4mil" shouldn't negate the masses of pirated copies. You don't just write that kind of money off, you're talking about potentially millions of dollars here. You do something to protect it - if that means moving your games to consoles exclusively or employing DRM, thats what you do. And that's exactly what publishers are doing.

- The way to decrease piracy and increase sales is to provide unique content that motivates someone to buy it rather than copy it.

I agree with what you're saying somewhat but I'd say that offering alternatives like digital distribution which are more convenient for the consumer is a better way rather than just a blanket "improve your games in some way" type statement. Steam is a great example of this, many of the games on it aren't even cheaper than their retail counterparts but people love it because it's easy and convenient.

- Pirate numbers != potential sales numbers. Anyone who says that isn't educated about economics or the retail market.

I don't really agree with this, the most recent example this being untrue is Mass Effect. The DRM limited the game's exposure for a week yet still provided an effective "demo" of the product. It was an effective way of giving your potential customer a glimpse of the product and letting them sample it without giving it away. If you show people the value of the product then you can definitely convert some people from pirates to customers, its the whole reason DRM companies are shifting strategies. The main focus of most DRM companies now is to prevent you from fully exploring the game, as soon as you complete it the game loses value and your chances of purchase are diminished. People still pirated the game later but the publisher commented that it did help sales significantly during release week(which is the most important sales period in this industry other than Christmas).
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 18:58.

Which is probably why my system works so well, with it's nForce 680i chipset and all. You know, like, flawlessly since June of last year when I set the system up. So far, every game I've installed has worked.

I'm not going to sit and compare anecdotes with you all day because it won't get us anywhere but I will say that I own a small business repairing and building computers for a living. I've been doing it a number of years and while I am certainly not god's gift to technology, I am knowledgeable enough to know the difference between regular user crap and manufacturer issues. I'm well aware of what is normal in terms of compatibility issues and we've dealt with more nforce crap than I care to remember. There's a reason the P35's are vastly more popular. Nvidia has come a long way with the drivers since the Vista launch and I'll give them credit for that but trumpeting themselves as the leader of driver stability and GPU scaling is laughtastic.

No one is saying its impossible to build a stable nforce based machine but it's certainly more of a crapshoot than grabbing a generic P35 and being off to the races.

This comment was edited on Aug 1, 18:34.

Honestly Verno... you've accepted their terms if you play their game. This has nothing to do with your memory and everything to do with how you affect and interact with the live server you're joined to. Their terms, their rules, if you don't like them you can simply stop playing.

See that's the exact problem though. Most Terms of Service have never been tested in court, if you read through the average ToS it basically grants every right known to man to the company. Quite a few them directly violate your own state/federal laws, especially regarding product resale. The average person doesn't have the money to object to them is the problem really. Saying "dont like it, dont play?" doesn't answer anything in the situation really. For the record I don't play WoW, I have enough addictions in my life

Your interaction (with or without Glider) doesn't just stop at your memory... it goes through your little network card, through the internets and onto their server. It's called online gaming.

The sarcasm aside, Glider never actually communicates with Blizzard's servers, it's access is strictly local. The WoW client does any and all interactions with the server. Violating the Terms of Service is welcoming account closure and any number of other actions Blizzard is entitled to attempt but that's on a case by case basis.

The real story is that Blizzard is trying to protect it's giant cashcow and I don't blame them for it. It still doesn't make it right, regardless of how much you or I dislike bots.

I don't think anyone is telling you that you don't have that right. Distributing and selling something that does that is an entirely different concept. They are not related in the slightest.

I don't agree, that's exactly the heart of the issue. They're telling me I cannot obtain a commercial product to modify the World of Warcraft experience on my computer. My point is that they lose the right to dictate terms of use when their game is loaded into memory.

If they wanted total control, they should've used a thin/dumb client design instead allowing the game client to determine things it shouldn't be allowed to like game speeds.

MMO Glider is just selling a product that modifies something in my memory, it does not directly modify any content on the World of Warcraft servers.

b. SLI is still the preferred multi-GPU platform thanks to its stellar scaling, game compatibility and driver stability.

Wow I can't believe someone said that with a straight face. Nvidia's 6xx and 7xx SLI motherboards are notorious for hardware conflicts, shoddy drivers and unwarranted price premiums. It's part of why so many gamers have gone P35 this generation.

I'd be "very excited for our future MCP's" if they could just design a stable motherboard with working drivers. That would be a huge accomplishment. Nvidia may make great videocards but their motherboards are a disaster.

Blizzard has no right to tell me what I do or don't inject into the ram of my computer. The memory is present in my computer, their product loads itself into my property and I can do whatever I want with it from there. Their Terms of Service can claim they have the right but until it's tested in court then no one will know for sure.

They do however have the right to cancel my account.

Piracy is a very small %. They can't count as lost sales because, well, the person who is pirating it probably doesn't have the money to buy it anyway - and/or never would have purchased it.

When I had a huge library of games (from pirating or borrowing friends games), it was because I couldn't afford them. I would buy the blockbuster titles (a few a year) but everything else was out of reach or wasn't avail in my area. I have since gone back and purchased damn near everything. Many games I still have in shrink wrap. I now have a fully legit huge selection of games. Wish I would have kept all of the boxes. Just have stacks of CD/DVD folders.

And yet somehow people are able to afford specific PC components capable of handling modern games along with broadband internet as a poor person who couldn't afford games, amazing! This excuse doesn't fly around here. If you can afford a 500GB hard drive, stacks of blank dvds and custom video cards that usually don't come standard in OEM systems then they can afford to pay for their games or perhaps they shouldn't be downloading 200 of them! Saying it isn't lost revenue is an all too convenient ploy for pirates. I wouldn't have bought it anyways!!! Well I guess we'll never know, boy isn't that convenient?
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 13:54.

I think you either underestimate the capabilities of the pirates or overestimate the difficulty of console piracy. One of the reasons the console market is more popular is because of the need to be more tech savvy to play a game.

I get what you're saying but look at the Wii as an example, there is no way pirates make up even 1 in every 100 people on that system. I think you're over estimating the market itself, the people who just pick one up based on Mario or whatever they saw on TV. People like you and me who are familiar with these things are actually pretty rare in comparison to the installed customer base.

A closed platform provides more control was my point, not total control. As opposed to an open platform where you have little to none which is pretty much what the PC platform is these days - an open platform that's very hard to predict.