Fortunately no western developer is dumb enough to think its fans want to watch 4-5 hours of pre-rendered cut scenes. That's pretty solely in the realm of FF and MGS, two games that haven't been fun for me since the early 90s, in part because they became more about watching incoherent cut scenes and less about doing anything.

Fortunately for us westerners developers aren't going to stay short sighted as you make them out to be as there are more things than just cut scenes that can be added to take advantage of the extra space.

Even without adding a single bonus feature or cut scene, there are games that are taking up multiple DVDs on an Xbox that would fit on a single Blu-ray.

Trying to downplay more capacity to create is ignorant plain and simple.

This comment was edited on Aug 28, 2009, 12:27.

shows a large consumer indifference towards it for the moment.

Same with the transitions involving 3.5 disks, VHS, Cds, and DVDs. This is expected, not some kind of indicator, no matter how marketing people try to make it one.

Stop wasting time on stupid projects like Home that no one seems to care about.

I share this sentiment, however 7 million people regularly visit Home, and that number is on the rise. They have added an extreme amount of content, with plans to add more. Game launching from inside Home is on the way. As a revenue stream, this may be a very nice addition for the PS3. I doubt I will ever use it however.

Netflix was the biggest cool surprise with the 360. I already had netflix but the "free" streaming on demand of TV shows and movies is a HUGE plus. HUGE. I love it. No waiting for the mail and no waiting in line at a rental place. The convenience factor is 100%

Once you adopt Blu-ray, you ultimately get a component Blu-ray player as well. Samsung makes the best ones with HQV. Their firmware offers free Netflix streaming (which I don't use after a few samples and see no need for as physical media is so much better). Sony doesn't really need Netflix, it has an insane library to stream already for people that think its cool. It would be a nice option, but like I said, renting physical media yields a better picture anyways.

The problem with this scenario it doesn't take streaming into account which is a serious growth market.

The problem with streaming is that it doesn't look like Blu-ray or even good upscaled media, and there was even an article posted here on Blues not too long ago that it would be a decade or so for streaming to be comperable HD to even upscaled DVDs on a premium upscaler.

There's a place for it with people who like to stream (I personally hate using streaming at all). That place is pretty much TV shows and news, stuff without a lot of visuals. I still buy regular DVDs of stuff like "House" and "Boston Legal". Because it's nice to have a Blu-ray of it, you just don't have to have it with upscaling on TV shows unless they have special effects like "Stargate" or something animated (yeah animated stuff looks pretty damn good).

Battlestar Galactica Blu-ray set was uttterly amazing, especially since it was all pretty much shot in high def video tape. With Sci-fi stuff, gaming special effects and cut scenes, heavy special effect movies, Blu-ray is a *must have* to me. It makes special effect and animated content look amazing.

Over time being the key words there unfortunately. This kind of thing takes years.

I totally agree, but being ahead of the curve and forming a library congruent to the future standard has a big advantage as it has a much, much longer shelf life. I was one of those guys buying PC CDs like Battle Chess and other more obscure titles well before there was anything truly remarkable and I was listening to the same debate about floppies and modems being all you needed...

DVDs took root eventually in the games market, it's been nice not having to install tons of floppies or CDs. I still have some of the large CD install games like Farcry. Blu-ray is doing the same thing DVDs did for the CD transition.

But back to the quality aspect, why pay to stream lower quality when for the same price or cheaper you can get a Blu-ray version rented. The only real advantage streaming has that I might be interested is if I wanted to sit down and watch more than 12 hours of content on a single day. Otherwise Netflix can get me 5 BDs every couple of days.

That's a really ludicrous suggestion and this discussion was going so well beforehand. Microsoft has shelled out over a billion in warranty/repair costs. The vast majority of consumers get their systems warrantied, they don't don't go running out to buy new systems.

No, it's not ludicrous... I have 2 Xboxs... I have had to return them 3 times (we have all but stopped using them around here or we would probably wuld have had more returns to speak of). When you return a RROD it's only warrantied for a very short time where you are then faced with a choice of paying $99 for refurb service from Xbox, or you say screw it and buy an arcade version and slap your old hard drive on it for a little bit more, with newer 65nm chips and 45nm processor instead of craptastic first run refurbs that have probably been in 3-4 people's homes already... The advantages of that is to get newer and better internal architecture and hopefully improve the odds you will not be in RROD anytime soon. It is artificial inflation of sales figures due to astronomical failure rates. There are even videos and tutorials on how to do it which I have posted to Blues before. Intentional or not, it has impacted the sales figures legit install base and you truly can't count on every Xbox sold as a potential 3rd party sale anymore.

With PS3, you have to consider early sales to people wanting to best Blu-ray player and who could care less about gaming. So PS3 has it's issues too. However, new slim sales, for the most part, are gamer centric, and I think when compared side by side, PS3 install base will have a higher ratio of true install base than when compared with the 360.

Attach rate is a different story, but then that is always shifting and is in a state a bigger flux now. One can quote old figures, basically taking a few battles and declaring a winner of a long protracted war, or you can just wait and see where things settle after GOW3 hits, and it's effects are known (things between here and there are going to keep the shift occurring). I already know that buying in to PS3 early is going to have the better outcome, but I can understand why some are skeptical about Sony. I also know it's hard to make a transition after being in Xbox land awhile, I did it, but I am very, very happy I made the switch to PS3 earlier, rather than waiting for the inevitable.

This comment was edited on Aug 28, 2009, 12:24.

I swear I'm just going to stop buying DLC since I can just wait six months and get everything in a single pack.

I am starting to take the same approach too...

The info I have been finding (rumors) is that the Amazon Xbox ad is apparently a response marketing move to Sony releasing a 250gig PS3 Slim with controllers and GT5.

There's also a rumble there may be a Sony press conference today for some reason. No idea what it's about, and they have failed to post the PSN update.

This comment was edited on Aug 28, 2009, 11:08.

That's all fine and good but we're talking a difference of 40GB here. I'm not even sure how you cram a Blu-Ray full with current development techniques in the industry.

That stuff adds up when you toss on 4-5 hours of 1080p movies and cut scenes plus a game. This will continue on PS3. I think the Blu-ray perk is just now being utilized. It's a cheap and easy way to make the PS3 version better and unique, without refitting it to the machine. I think the Movie+game thing is great stuff and I imagine we will start seeing more of that. This link Blue just posted shows what I mean too...

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/08/27/why-uncharted-2-couldnt-work-on-xbox-360/

it costs them very little to include an extra disc for retail.

Depends on the game, if it's a port/conversion, and what kind of business deal is involved. Overall, DVD is an old tech losing it's value. It's like going back to the days when we had to install games off 5-6 floppies. Evolution always allows for better development when it comes to capacity. With Blu-ray, for the most part, as you said, you can be pretty generous when you set out to plan what to include. With DVD, it's always a limiting factor you have to be conscious of, regardless of who's paying what.

Very large hard drives are conveniently very cheap and you don't need to manage a stack of discs.

We are talking about Xbox 360 right?? You either get a stack of discs, or I imagine a highly priced HD if you go by what has been available to date.

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-120GB-Hard-Drive/dp/B000OYKQBU

I got a 500 gig HD for my PS3 and installed it for the price that Xbox 120 gig goes for. I am afraid to even guess what a 500 gig will run once Xbox'd.

Unfortunately people don't really seem to be adopting Blu-Ray at the rate where it will matter for this console generation.

This is a paradigm shift to me due to Netflix (similar to how digital recording services would not be considered in ratings when deciding to cancel a program). People are renting more, I used to exclusively buy, now I rent. Yeah it's because they are overpriced but also because I don't need to buy everything I want to watch either, a change in habit I think many are going through now that Netflix is well marketed, and easy to use (fast). So yeah sales are lower but Blu-ray is being used. It will only go 1 direction every year, and that is a bigger install base. This Xmas should see some serious HDTV install base growth, that's the fertile field that Blu-ray needs.

That's not even getting into the technical details like how 1080p isn't discernible from 720p on most sub 42" HDTVs.

I wouldn't go that far at all and I think people will be able to get bigger HD over time. I think projected HD is going to be huge in the next couple of years once the laser models are perfected and even the portables are improved. Your buying decisions now due to software library accumulation should be focused on the future too.

Sales figures don't bear you out here, sorry. The 360 is the only system showing any growth figures so far this year.

If you divide total Xbox 360s sold by 2 you see PS3 trouncing Xbox. You have to account for the enormous returns on Xbox hardware. It's astronomical... That and the system has been out a lot longer. PS3 has to take a cut out of it's sales as well because many systems were sold as BD players, not game systems. But even looking at the third party sales won't tell the true story due to many core gamers having both machines and sticking to Xbox on them because they want to work on their achievement points and have a friends list. They haven't made the shift yet... The live statistics are quite nice due to the fact they have been cultivating the service during the life of 2 consoles versus one on the PS3. So they had a pretty healthy head start.

This console generation has proved that there is room to support three large competitors.

I am not so sure that is true anymore. There was a time I really thought that. But if I go by just my own buying habits (and I have a tendancy to buy more than the average gamer even if I only have a slight interest in a game) I have ceased buying 360 and Wii games. I just cancelled H3ODST, Risen, Section 8. I picked up Metroid trilogy simply because it's an awesome deal and got the wife the shirt hehe. Other than that it's all PS3, PSP, some DS, no PC. I am no longer buying Xbox then PS3 later if it's released. It either shows up or it doesn't. I can only assume with this economy, the way the game dev news has been going, and how people have really become polarized on these things, that the real picture is just now being deciphered. I think that there's a lot less support for what exists now.

They have to be patient as their revenues depend on retail.

To me Patient and Microsoft are oxymorons. They make long term plans like any company, but I see them rushing headstrong in to those short term goals and throwing money at whatever they didn't think of, or whatever becomes the grease for the machine. It has it's strengths and weaknesses. I do not think they have the same economy of wait time Sony has clearly engineered for itself.

In terms of DRM neither company is innocent,

It's really not a binary issue, pass/fail on guilt or innocence. They are going to do DRM on DLC, simple as that. The real heart of the matter is what is reasonable. With Sony you get 5 different devices to use your content on you can deactivate and reactivate at your whim. With Xbox you get 1 single device, can only change that 1 time per year last I checked via their web page. They cut some slack if you RROD (and they are willing to push the change instead of trying to coax you in to using your web site change).

Luckily with PS3 with Blu-ray, the disc games you don't have to worry about DRM at all, excepts for DLC or something. If Xbox goes full digital sooner (which I still completely see happening), then that's all games from that point on being under some pretty unacceptable DRM.

As for Securom and rootkits, yeah that is bs and Sony took a whalloping for it, deservedly so. If you want to let that steer you into an even more draconian DRM sceheme with Xbox, that's your call.

This comment was edited on Aug 27, 2009, 22:12.

you just said that PSN didn't have them two posts now ago and now you're saying it does.

Feel free to quote me as I did not say this...

I'm making an effort to be cordial to you in this topic but I won't continue if you persist in being rude.

Fair enough.

This doesn't make any sense, what does Blu-Ray have to do with game distribution?

It makes a huge amount of sense. Blu-ray allows for the complete work on 1 disc. It allows cramming every kind of extra feature, special addition, even a whole movie in addition to the game like we get with Watchman the complete experience. For Xbox to ever do anything even remotely close (it's already having to slice and dice the big games across multiple dvds and I am sure paying large amounts of money to dev houses to do it) they will have to develop or rent something like Blu-ray, or go digital only with people adopting very, very large hard drives.

Secondly, Blu-ray locks in people just by existing. Once most people get used to it, and hooked on it, they are sold, especially if they have a nice high end HDTV. Watching the additional Batman content is amazing. Even Red Alert 3 has incredible in game cut scenes that would be cut down to a lower res for disc space on Xbox.

Xbox is losing people to PS3. If they were not, we would not be having this discussion at all and I would still be on Xbox. To end that, Xbox has to find a way to lock people in above and beyond friends list, achievement points, paid subscription, and proprietary discs that can still be pirated. They will have to go digital to compete with PS3 on the Blu-ray level, and to lock in people to 360 software purchase on a level that can't ever be resold. It will lock them in a mindset of having hundreds of dollars spent on a Xbox library and they are less likely to adopt a new piece of hardware because of thinking they will lose or not make use of their investment, whether true or not. They will feel like they have wasted a lot of money if they abandon it at some future point. Rather than face that feeling, most people would rather continue the bad habit of spending, and rationalize that it's the right thing to do, whether it is or isn't.

When it's announced, then go ahead and make that point.

No I will make it now. The pipework for a competitive app market is PSP Go, followed by a program to encourage small apps... You want to pretend it isn't obvious and on the way, go ahead. I am commenting on a comments section of a forum.

As for the PSP 2k-4k line, Sony publicly said during E3 they realize many of their customers prefer pysical media and they are going to continue to produce it. I would want to phase out the 3000 line too, it's embarassing. In addition to those facts, to not offer another PSP would invite people to abandon the platform if they don't want a digital only service. Something that wouldn't be risked when people will more than likely adopt it voluntarily when a phone is added to the mix...

I have been saying it's 10 years away for over a year, but I am pretty sure MS won't be patient, and all the signs I am seeing point to them being a Steam-like console service sooner rather than later. It's more prudent to bail now before you get stuck in a 1 machine DRM system with digital only.

It's prudent to build a collection with a system that is better long term, especially for the physical outlook. Blu-ray is physical media, Sony spent a hell of a lot of money pushing that format, I doubt they intend to abandon it so soon.

Neither one has downloadable retail games that you can't get by simply walking into a store and buying the disc.

This is incorrect... I think it's pretty safe to say that Xbox's Shadow Complex is a retail level game and there are others. I also think that PSN has retail level games that are download only like Wipeout HD. You should stick to PC games, it's apparent you are guessing in console issues.

I don't know why you think Sony wouldn't do it too, they are hurting just as much from used game sales as Microsoft is. It makes great business sense to get rid of your middleman, especially when he's eating your profits by reselling your products.

Of course Sony wants to do it but it would be foolish to go as far as Xbox will have to... Sony doesn't have to because they have Blu-ray which allows them a lot of time to be patient. There is a very good chance the PS3 will never see any kind of majority download only content because of Blu-ray.

Xbox on the other hand has a 2 fold problem, no large portable media system, and a need to try and retain all the gamers they have now by any means they can before the PS3 gets them (which has been happening over time already). This will most likely be attempted with a large hard drive release at some point, and the current big "Games on Demand" push. MS will most likely be the most agressive out of reasonable understanding of past business practices, and their need to do so lacking large scale portable media solutions (to sell at retail).

Why spend money for Xbox to basically have it turn in to a Steam-like console? They are both prisons, no matter how nice the decor is. I would jsut assume stay on PC at that point but niether is a better option. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the PS3 will have physical media a lot longer than Xbox.

I do appreciate you agreeing it's going to happen by providing further supportive facts of why it should.

Sony made claims about physical media at E3. It was there for anyone to hear in the big press conference.

I see the PSPGo is a first run at Apple's Iphone. Expect the phone part soonish. In that market digital only distribution is already established. As for PSP 2000,3000 and soon to be 4000 users, the UMD will be continued.

This comment was edited on Aug 27, 2009, 17:27.

@ Verno - Xbox live has many download only games. Stop misleading people. They are ramping up to make the store bought ones download as well... Pretending otherwise is silly.

To make things worse, you can only use Xbox downloaded stuff on 1 Xbox at a time.

For the few download only games on PSN, Sony allows for 5 different devices that can be reassigned and used on all those devices...

Sony has openly claimed they are aware that their customers prefer physical media and are going to cater to them while Xbox changes it's OS to be more like Steam (ick!).

This is a no brainer...

This comment was edited on Aug 27, 2009, 16:49.

I have the first one and expansion on disc still. I liked it but I won't go the drm route for a sequel.

Even though Xbox lowered it's price, now is the perfect time to make the switch from Xbox to PS3. Price is right, and you can avoid going download only on titles at some point with Xbox. Free Blu-ray, wireless, and multiplayer to boot. Start your collection on PS3 instead with all cross platform titles and make a clean break while you can. You don't want to come to that conclusion later.

Not fun when people beat you at your own game, is it?

You are playing a game? Are you winning? What do you win? Can we all play?

A bit dramatic don't you think?

I wonder if people thought buying silly floppies of this thing called DOS would ever lead to what we have now... No, not silly at all, especially with mass marketing of the modern age. Focused cash streams of this magnitude are extremely potent, and yes, they crossed the streams...

In this case you're 100% correct. Sony has gotten this right. So has Nintendo, though. See anything in common with those two? Maybe culturally? Or nationally?

I am glad you see and understand *my* point, as well as agree with some of it. Nintendo however has not gotten this right, as they are resistant to true technological progress, artificially retard evolution of hardware, and generally cater to a very small subsection of the traditional gamer census by trying to convert non gamers... I can go on and on here, so no, they aren't the same... However the Japanese cultural philosophy of harmony is something that applies...

That aside, you are a zealot,

I don't worship Sony, in fact I have more reasons than most to hate portions of their company for real world tangible reasons. This is about your mind being open to where we were, where we are now, and who you will choose to be the warden and groundskeeper of your hobby. There are too many genies out of bottles to ever go back... There is enough traction that we are here now and we are going someplace else worse... Something I keep trying to impress on people... How much more of MS must people see happen before they stop paying for it? There are plenty of examples on this thread... Your hobby is under assault and being taken over...

It's too late to truly stop it unless you convince everyone to stop buying console products, so you might as well make a political decision and choose who has the best philosophy, a better track record handling the cares and wishes of gamers, good hardware and features, as well as a strong core gamer outlook, and stop avoiding these facts by labeling people as "zealots/fanboys" when they make an absolute proper decision for all the right reasons...

This is about who you are going to empower to decide the fate of gaming for the next 10-20 years, maybe longer... You are essentially choosing your master for the short term (decades) which will also have an impact long term, choose wisely...

Also learn to stop labeling and stereotyping everything you don't understand in life so you can wrap your head around it, it's an insult to everyone and your own intellectual potential... It's an instinct that the weak minded use to control the "forum game" and not actually achieve anything. You are smarter than that Beamer.

which is why we all tend to ignore you.

I don't see you speaking for everyone and you do everything BUT ignore me and you know it! It's ok, I don't care what you all think of my fictitious alias as long as you get the message that your money spent is hurting or helping gaming.

It's not about having fun to you,

How can you possibly say that? I wouldn't care about any of it if the hobby wasn't something I valued. I have better things to do than to impress upon kids what's happening to their hobby (don't say you know it because you keep perpetuating it here...)I won't voluntarily sit and play a game in total ignorance of the war that is happening over the hobby I do value. It's as real as the anti violence in video games. It is as real as it gets and how much more MS/EA/large publisher destruction must one see to understand it? I have watched this industry from where it was born to where it is now, it's sad to see where it's at, where it's going, and then to watch people on these forums duck their head in the sand and give more money to MS or Steam. It's hurting the hobby... stop it if you want it to change.

Trying your horse to one wagon over the long term is the act of an idiot,

I haven't tied myself to anything... Right now backing Sony is the best choice for gaming and they have the best offers across the board.

As for Chrome Hounds, I am just posting something I think is significant in my sig. I thought you ignored me? Why do you care? It's "my" sig! Even further is it's true! I don't see you addressing Verno for his completely fabricated and untrue Warhawk server sig... So you see, you are deceiving others to make personal attacks on me, because you don't ignore me, you find it worrisome the points I raise, which you should... You are also carrying on as Verno would say "Butt hurt" for me jumping your case over Red Baron. Which is fine, feel free to attack me, but don't bullshit other people about why you are doing it, and distort the facts of the discussion. That's an act of Zealotry... You aren't a hypocrite are you Beamer?

That is the EU PSN list, not the USA one.

This is the best info I have ran across at figuring out what is coming out before it's posted...

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2009/08/26/rumored-ps-store-content-for-082709/

Sometimes the Playstation forum has a fan based rumor thread that actually has some good info as well.

After the PSN content is posted (late in the day every Thursday) you will see it listed here:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/

This comment was edited on Aug 27, 2009, 11:15.

The reason Square won't see an impact from PS3 price cut is because Square only has Crystal Defenders that I can remember on the PS3. The other titles are slated for 2010... So it has little to do with the PS3, and more to do with Square actually releasing something worthy of a sale on the PS3...

"Barbarians are at the gate."

and...

"This has all happened before, and will all happen again."

+5 for LittleMe.

You don't care about what's better for the customer,

I have detailed over the last year how much cheaper the PS3 was when you consider free wireless, free online multiplayer. I have posted in depth reviews of games, technical details, hardware information, peripherial information, hands on comparisons of Xbox to PS3 on things I have personally played. I have gone beyond caring about what's best for the gamer. PS3 *is* better and the sooner everyone adopts it the sooner Xbox 360 stops being the lowest common denominator... I am sorry PC gaming sucks horribly but it does. I see more belly aching about what may come out some day than actual playing of games...

The only person here with a personal agenda that is self serving is you in your personal troll bait stalking flame war of me, with your multiple puppet accounts. You labeled me as a fanboy, and have spent more energy and effort trying to paint me as something bad, when I have simply presented facts (with links and references). You, Beamer and Mini-me can attempt to flame all you want, it doesn't change any of that... I will continue to be supportive of PS3 while you slowly gravitate to it and pretend to be pro PS3 the whole time months from now. Glad you are at least seeing the light.

No one cares who is first, third, fourth or whatever.

And that is precisely why we get articles like Fasa being destroyed by MS... You'd do well to learn that son...

@Beamer - Stop being and Xbox fanboy, you are suppose to be a Wii fanboy, remember?

But you're a fanboy who thinks Sony is innocent of all of this, so your opinion isn't terribly valid.

Because I think the grass is green, the sky isn't blue?

I think Sony has a reputation of creating studios. I can't really think of one they killed (I could be wrong). Can't say the same for any of the others... All the big companies do things that I disagree with... But if I had to choose a company to be the "Rock of Gibralter" for gaming, it certainly wouldn't be MS or Nintendo... So pick someone else, stop feeding the beast. Giving me grief for that perspective is silly...

This comment was edited on Aug 26, 2009, 21:34.

PSP 4000 hopefully improves vid screen...

I am passing on this, might check out Star Trek/Star Wars. If I play a super hero game it will be DC online. But I doubt I will.