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User information for NewMaxx

Real Name NewMaxx   
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Signed On Jul 4, 2007, 21:44
Total Comments 1190 (Pro)
User ID 41686
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News Comments > Saturday Tech Bits
23. Re: Morning Mobilization Mar 12, 2017, 14:51 NewMaxx
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Mar 12, 2017, 09:02:
Having now read the article in full, the CCX and Infinity Fabric architecture do indeed appear to cause the Ryzen to behave as though a Ryzen chip is two 4-core CPUs on a single die. While that may sound like a distinction without a difference, it's actually quite important, and the benchmarks are clearly showing substantially more overhead for a context shift across the Infinity Fabric as opposed to a context shift within a CCX.

tl;dr Operating Systems leverage shared L3 caching to minimize the overhead of swapping processes and threads across multicore CPUs. Since Ryzen partitions its two CCXs, no such optimization is possible for context switches between CCXs. Windows can be patched to minimize cross CCX context switches, but when such a switch is unavoidable then there's nothing Windows can do but incur the extra overhead baked into Ryzen's architecture.

I state how it is configured in my first reply below, but in order to elaborate a bit to support your reply here I'll add more. Nothing you say is wrong - I'm just going to distill it down a bit.

First, the L3 cache in Ryzen is a overfill ("victim") cache, which means anything that doesn't fit into L1/L2 ends up in L3. Second, the interconnect between the two banks of L3 cache (two CCX modules) is rather slow and also has to handle other tasks (e.g., PCI-e). Therefore, if information is in the other bank relative to a CPU requiring that information (assuming the L3 is full), you take a high latency hit. The design is inherently more similar to a dual-CPU. It's possible to optimize for this but it's a bit like "optimizing" for the last 512MB of the GTX 970 - Ryzen's design is far more consistent, of course, but the opposite end would be mirroring the cache (a la SLI/Crossfire) which would be devastating for a 8-core CPU or more intelligently distributing the "spill" which, again, would be more like a 2-CPU situation, but without the dual RAM banks. AMD simply made compromises to bring cost down on this chip, and people expecting miracles are ignoring the realities of trade-offs.

This comment was edited on Mar 12, 2017, 15:08.
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News Comments > Saturday Tech Bits
10. Re: Morning Mobilization Mar 12, 2017, 01:56 NewMaxx
Agent-Zero wrote on Mar 12, 2017, 00:39:
seems to imply that a single Ryzen processor appears to act like a dual CPU system, is that correct? thats bizarre, because I figured that multi-core CPUs were already acting like that to some degree, but i suppose it must be different in terms of how the system buses work with that

The R5/R7 chips use two banks of L3 cache instead of shared like, for example, Intel's Broadwell-E. So, yes, it is like a dual-CPU (with each 3/4-core having CCX for one bank). Also, CPUs in the past - like the Core 2 Quad - had a similar configuration with L2 cache. It was often said this kept the Q6600, for example, from being a true quad core (and more like a dual C2D).

This comment was edited on Mar 16, 2017, 19:21.
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News Comments > Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands Released
29. Re: Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands Released Mar 7, 2017, 20:09 NewMaxx
HoSpanky wrote on Mar 7, 2017, 17:58:
Has anyone been running hardware monitors while playing this?

Been playing at 1080p60 at Very High with annoying shit turned off (DOF, Motion Blur) but Turf turned on and AF kicked up. CPU usage is upwards of 70% (6700K @ 4.4) and GPU usage hits up to 55% or so (75% of core speed, 75% usage = 56%, memory not considered) with a 1080 @ 2050. I recorded (x264) tons during the two betas and hit maybe 90% CPU usage at worst, IIRC. There's just certain graphics settings that don't work well. NVIDIA usually puts out very specific guides for these...
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News Comments > Morning Mobilization
4. Re: Morning Mobilization Mar 7, 2017, 17:17 NewMaxx
The Slashdot comments are pretty informative, worth reading through. Like most things it's not as simple as it looks.  
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News Comments > Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands Released
6. Re: Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands Released Mar 7, 2017, 12:58 NewMaxx
Performance is still pretty awful by my standards. If I can't get a consistent 60 FPS at 1080p, something is wrong. That's not even on max. Luckily I find it acceptable enough to play since the game is compelling...

I'll be doing a lot of videos on this one (to add to my six closed/open beta ones) so should be fun!

FYI - weapon/attachment map
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News Comments > Shroud of the Avatar Free Trial
25. Re: Shroud of the Avatar Free Trial Mar 5, 2017, 20:38 NewMaxx
Made a video of roughly the first 30 minutes of the game. Wasn't very impressed although I'm sure there is more to it...not sure if I can force myself to go further, though. Feels too clunky.  
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News Comments > Shroud of the Avatar Free Trial
7. Re: Shroud of the Avatar Free Trial Mar 4, 2017, 17:34 NewMaxx
I'll check it out and probably make a quick video but from my understanding (and following of it), this was mostly a money grab with a community centralized on "whales."  
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
85. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 4, 2017, 16:03 NewMaxx
CJ_Parker wrote on Mar 3, 2017, 16:56:

That's right and let's also consider that multithreaded programming is extremely complex.


X370 isn't a very convincing chipset and it's certainly not one to last several years.

I like to describe multi-threading to people as going "wide" vs. "tall" (a la Civilization city strategies). There are benefits to both so it depends on what you're doing but, ultimately, going "wide" is less efficient somewhere along the line. The reason we don't have very few cores without HT at high clock rates is because of the physics - and a lot of people don't understand that. However, we've hit the wall for 4/8, so I do think moving forward 6/12 and 8/16 will be more compelling - but probably not until 10nm.

The chipset is relatively overpriced and underwhelming for what it is; but, hey, you're designing a board that can handle everything from a 4/4 to a 8/16. Certainly I think some of the income will be coming from the motherboard sales. Compare it to a nice X99 with a 6-core...yeah...hell compare it to a decent Z170 (I paid $114.99 for mine after rebate - with dual M.2 slots, ALC1150, etc.). It's just simply satisfactory; no more, no less.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
84. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 4, 2017, 15:47 NewMaxx
Simon Says wrote on Mar 3, 2017, 16:37:
Well... this explains a lot... Botched rushed release... I'll wait until these issues are fixed then take a look at it again, still, if these are true, its a BIG BLUNDER on AMD's part.

AMD has the intention of fixing many of the problems by the time R5 comes out but I don't expect a fully mature product until the refresh. That being said, the 6/12 chips should be excellent, but IMHO the 4/8 chips will be underwhelming due to the halving of cache because of how they designed this chip (heavier reliance on cache to compensate for lower memory performance). Of course, less die space given to cache has its benefits in TDP and overclocking, but it also means they can be looser with binning, so I don't see it (4/8) as a compelling product. Nevertheless on the whole I see Ryzen as a pretty solid undertaking, not a blunder by any means.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
83. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 4, 2017, 15:38 NewMaxx
Dev wrote on Mar 4, 2017, 09:37:
I'm in a similar boat. BUT, fortunately I found out there's a PCIE bus adapter that you can use m.2 drives with, with zero loss in performance (since there's no controller chip slowing things, just a direct bus interface).
So I'm looking at putting the Samsung 960 pro or evo into my older system.
Note: Only thing you miss out on is BOOTING to the m.2 (since it's mobo support that's needed). However, you can work around that, including by sticking a usb boot sector on a thumbdrive into a USB port that then boots the m.2

All true, just keep in mind there are different kinds of M.2 cards and slot types. For the drives you want to make sure to get NVME over SATA as you don't get the benefits of avoiding a SATA controller otherwise (higher sequential speeds, much higher I/O operations, lower latencies, less CPU overhead, etc). The two you mention are NVME, I'm just pointing that out for other people. Of course, NVME drives are expensive as hell, with Intel's 600p being the cheapest but not very great. Keep in mind M.2 drives have the tendency to overheat and will throttle when they do so - so consider your cooling situation with regard to the PCI-e slot.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
82. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 4, 2017, 15:36 NewMaxx
Dev wrote on Mar 4, 2017, 09:49:
Microcenter sells CPUs at a loss figuring they are drawing you in to buy the other parts there, which is why they don't sell them online at that price.
But if you are near one, you are set!

Yes, that's true, I mention that in another one of my posts. Keep in mind you can get the cost down (online) to that with intelligent buying via combo deals, promo codes, and rebates. I picked up my 6700K over Black Friday for $299 (when Microcenter had it for $259, along with $30 off a motherboard combination) with a $129 motherboard; however, there was a $22 combo, a $15 rebate on the motherboard, and $25 off with a VCO promotion. So I ended up paying $367 which still beat the Microcenter combo, AND I didn't have to pay tax.

(P.S. I paid $123 for 32GB of DDR4 then, too, thanks to a 5% mobile coupon and a 16GB RAM kit on sale for $64.99 - again no tax, and MC couldn't match that; voila, <$500 total)
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News Comments > Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands PC Details
4. Re: Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands PC Details Mar 3, 2017, 23:36 NewMaxx
I ran both betas with Very High settings (with some annoying effects disabled) at 1080p with my GTX 1080 and 6700K @ 4.4 with 32GB of RAM, on a SSD RAID-0. Anything more suffered too much in performance terms...which is pretty crazy. It's certainly possible to get high FPS most of the time but even that was only acceptable by my standards.  
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
73. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 3, 2017, 07:50 NewMaxx
Ozmodan wrote on Mar 3, 2017, 07:23:
Well I was in Microcenter yesterday and they had two systems side by side, both identical except for processors, neither overclocked. One a 1800x the other an I7-770k. Tried both, there was no difference in gameplay at all, in fact the AMD actually seemed a bit faster in spots. If you open a bunch of other apps the Intel systems became slower significantly. I usually have 4 or 5 other apps running even when gaming. So for me the AMD just owns the Intel I7 in this scenario.

I just do not overclock anymore. It is just a good way to ruin your computer. I build a lot of systems for people and have seen more people burn up their system overclocking them even water cooled rigs.

I appreciate your subjective viewpoint. It's surprisingly relevant when you're choosing a component.

As far as overclocking is concerned, you've touched a nerve for me. The vast majority of people (including review sites) don't know how to overclock. I'll give an example of a PC I built two years ago for a friend. 4690K, moderate air cooling ($40 range). I pushed the voltage and speed as far as it would go until it hit my limits - <90C with newest Prime95 (AVX) on Blend and Small, and once it passed 12 hours of those I dropped it a multiplier (100 MHz) and left it there. Ended up being 4.4 GHz at 1.185V - fantastic results, infinitely stable, no potential damage with 10 years of running.

The problem is you have people saying, for example, a 6700K can do 4.8 on good air with such and such voltage (let's say 1.4V), and they tell you NOT to test with AVX Prime because it "kills CPUs and is no longer relevant." These guys drop 1k+ a year on computers and have a new CPU before your head can finish spinning. You follow this line and you end up with a charred failure after 1-2 years because you hit throttling temps when x264 encoding a few months after you got it. I've actually, literally, seen pros say that "just use it in your system until it BSODs" as a stability test. These are the people who are ruining overclocking.

Don't listen to them. They're full of shit. Keep your voltage low, temps low, and pass the hardest test under the sun, then drop another 100 MHz from there to be on the safe side. You'll be fine. P.S., for Ryzen 8/16, that means <4.0 most likely.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
67. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 3, 2017, 01:34 NewMaxx
Slick wrote on Mar 3, 2017, 01:14:
So the 65w part can draw up to the same limits as the 95w parts? I believe this is around 120w?

It's weird calling it a 65w part, other than it's just underclocked out of the box...

I am interested in power draw, would like to know if the 1700 and the 1700x draw the same power if they're both OC'd to 4ghz, also that 4ghz is indeed achievable with proper cooling on a 1700

Intel and AMD have always determined TDP differently but even then thermal is different than power. Power can definitely spike beyond 120W, in fact the "levels" tend to be ~140W and ~200W since the motherboard's design is also important. All else being equal, yes, a 65W design has similar limits to a 95W design. However there's binning (quality of the silicon) and efficiency (higher voltage allows higher clocks without noise, higher voltage means more heat, more heat reduces efficiency), so you have diminishing returns on top of the SKUs (tiers). There's a ton of reasons to have different SKUs that I won't go into here, but evidence is that the 6/12 chips will have the same cache layout as the 8/16, which means higher TDP per core relative to clock but higher performance relative to that ratio.

An average 1700 will probably be binned lower and require higher voltage (and more power, plus heat) than a 1700X to hit the same speeds, but the diminishing returns on a 8/16 chip means that the 1700X and 1800X don't offer a whole lot more. This is due to the fact that the more cores you have, the more severe a penalty you have for increasing clocks. You can see this exhibited in mobile design (where you have lower raw clock speeds and often a configuration with separate "fast" and "slow" cores). I could go on but, anyway, from an overclocking and value standpoint, the 1700 is the way to go. Unless you're talking the R5 6/12 cores; that's a different story.

This comment was edited on Mar 3, 2017, 01:44.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
65. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 3, 2017, 00:35 NewMaxx
Slick wrote on Mar 2, 2017, 23:57:
I read this entire thread, and I'm surprised that no one has answered what I'd have thought to be the most important questions:

1) is the 1700x/1800x worth the markup compared to the 1700, with regards to stable overclocking?

2) what's the deal with the 1700 being a 65w part, and the 1700x/1800x being 95w parts? is the 1700 really limited in OCing?

Basically, can we all get away with just a 1700 and still manually OC to get performance equivalent or near a 1800x? That's the $329/$499 question!

1) No.

2) TDP doesn't really mean much. For example, one review showed the 1700X doubled power usage by going to 4.0 GHz. It's a measure of thermal output only, and even then it's measured differently. Also the 1600X (a 6/12 part) is a 95W TDP part. It's essentially meaningless.

1700 for manual OC is probably the way to go, yeah.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
63. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 2, 2017, 23:09 NewMaxx (one of many) "A weak memory controller on Ryzen could also be to blame for the lower than expected gaming scores."

Showed too much of my hand: it's already known in review circles that AMD is planning a microcode update and BIOS update
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
60. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 2, 2017, 20:43 NewMaxx
eRe4s3r wrote on Mar 2, 2017, 20:29:
Where you reading these AMD statements? (out of curiosity) more importantly, do we know when R5 releases and at what prices?

R5 was expected for Q2 although usually it's the latter end of the stated period. The 6/12 chips are cut-down 8/16 (same cache layout) so that limits their ability to bin as finely, meaning they delayed it to get the R7 sales out the door (which clearly worked). As for pricing, the 6/12 are slated to compete with the traditional i5 range and then some ($209-259). As far as my other statements, I probably showed too much of my hand, but if you read through the reviews you'll see there's BIOS updates coming for better memory support and likely a microcode to fix any lingering memory latency issues.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
59. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 2, 2017, 20:32 NewMaxx
eRe4s3r wrote on Mar 2, 2017, 20:27:
Meh, reviews should show what people who buy the matching mainboard / cpu should expect right now. Insofar they show reality. Imo R5, and more importantly, response from INTEL will be the far more interesting things to watch for future proofing..

Agreed. Keep in mind you can get a 7600K + MSI M5 for $335 right now while even the cheapest Ryzen (R7) setup with similar motherboard features is $500+. I got my 6700K + 32GB DDR4 + Z170 (again with the perks) for <$500 a few months ago. The question of value is still relevant, and it's relevant now. I agree the 6/12 with kinks worked out and more motherboard selection (plus hopefully price stabilization) will make it more clear-cut. I wouldn't expect miracles until the refresh, though, and that's likely a ways out.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
56. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 2, 2017, 20:26 NewMaxx
HorrorScope wrote on Mar 2, 2017, 20:01:
Update I was reading on a subject of reviews with wildly differentiating game results. Leading candidate as to why? Different MB's and the consensus think that bodes well for Ryzen once they are all figured out and updated. Will keep an eye out on that, if it matches the 7700K or say within 5'ish percent, then all the rest and possible better future proofing come into play, maybe.

Yes, BIOS updates and microcode updates will help quite a bit. There's also a refresh in the works that should really do well. I've been saying wait for the 6/12 for a while now since by the time it's launched most of this stuff will be worked out, and it'll be a great value, especially for overclockers.

As far as gaming performance goes...future games, esp. DX12-only ones (optimized), will benefit from 6+ core/threads which will help Ryzen a bit especially in VR. It's likely Intel will maintain the overall gaming edge, though, at least if all you're doing is gaming.

For those giving various data from various views: just keep in mind, AMD's stock tanked today because of perceived poor gaming performance. It's definitely an issue. AMD already said (prior to launch) it was releasing a microcode update and BIOS update to fix a lot of the memory latency and cache issues.
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News Comments > AMD Ryzen Reviews
47. Re: AMD Ryzen Reviews Mar 2, 2017, 18:08 NewMaxx
RedEye9 wrote on Mar 2, 2017, 17:54:
it looks that the Ryzen Integrated Memory Controller has been excellently tuned as it turned in great scores.

AMD has already admitted issues with it that will be fixed in future microcode updates as well as "Zen 2." Some places you can see it are in 1080p gaming and the VR latencies, but it shows up most prominently with memory latencies. Also, [H] still said it had a deficit in comparison to Skylake. Keep in mind they weren't able to really push it in that review, and we're still lacking comparison to Intel for other memory features.
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1190 Comments. 60 pages. Viewing page 12.
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