Likewise noman. I've been waiting for a good microtransaction MMO for a while.

I'd just like to mention that I both pirate and buy games so yes, pirates can be customers. I'm much more likely to buy a game if it meets any of the following conditions:

1) I know it exists.
2) Is good.
3) Has no DRM.
4) Costs $30 or less.

All of these things are determined by developers and publishers.

Exactly.

In other words, all you're actually good at is trolling, so that's all you do.

I did figure out your troll formula though.

1. Take a small bit of what someone posted, rip it out of context, and ignore the rest.

2. Take said selection and twist the words around, then claim the person said something he never said. (Possibly the exact opposite of what he actually said.)

3. Post "points" that "refute" what you claim the other person "said".

4. Insult them for not giving a "valid answer" to your "points".


So yes, nice job. You had me going there for a while. Congratulations, your troll was successful. Now I know what to watch for though, so it won't happen again. Live it up while you can.

In other words, you don't even care enough about what anyone else has to say to bother spending any time at all understanding them. You don't actually want to debate, you just want to say everyone else is wrong without bothering even reading what they actually wrote. I'm sorry, I had thought you actually wanted to create an interesting discussion. I won't make that same mistake again.

Sorry, that's not a valid answer to any of my or anyone else points.

I'm sorry, but you don't even understand the words being used in the discussion. There's no "valid answer" to give your points, because you have no valid points.

We'll just take your word that you're so much smarter than the rest of us and that we lowly Blues users could never comprehend your unique insight into the consumer gaming market.

It's not a matter of being smarter at all. It's simply a matter of taking a little time to educate yourself and make sure you understand what's being debated before you throw in your two bits. It's not that you don't have the capability to understand, it's that you don't want to.

Vague hints at some underlying fundamental no one else understands do not win debates.

Sorry, but when the points you're trying to make don't apply to the debate, you're not really a part of that debate. There's no debate with you to win. There can only be a debate when both sides at least understand the concepts of what is being debated.

In other words you have no real response to refute my points? Alright, fair enough.

Your "points" were refuted and irrelevant before you ever made them, but you didn't realize that as don't understand the first thing about the debate. It's like you're trying to argue about algebra when you don't understand something as simple as 2+2.

Again, once you have at least a basic understanding of how economics works, come back and maybe we can actually have an intelligent discussion. Until then, it's a waste of my time as you will understand none of the points I'm making.

I suggest you start by looking up a definition of "consumers", and then reading up on supply and demand.

This comment was edited on Jul 31, 2009, 19:31.

Since when are pirates consumers?

Wow. Just wow. You're trying to argue in a debate about economics when you don't know the first thing about it.

I was going to type up responses to the rest of your post, but then I got to that part and realized it was pointless. Come back when you know something about the topic of debate.

No citation needed for his argument: Beyond Good & Evil and Deus Ex just to name a few.

Really? Let's take a look at those games. Let's see... here's something from Wikipedia...

Beyond Good & Evil, initially designed by Michel Ancel, the creator of the Rayman series, as the first of a trilogy, was a commercial failure due to its ill-timed release and lack of popularity.

Nope. Nothing about piracy there. Translated, I think the gist of what they're saying is that it failed due to poor marketing. No surprise there; lots of good products fail commercially for that reason.

Now, how about Deus Ex...

[Deus Ex] received almost worldwide critical and industry acclaim, including being named "Best PC Game of All Time" in a 2007 poll carried out by UK gaming magazine PC Zone. It was a frequent candidate for and winner of Game of the Year awards, drawing praise for its pioneering designs in player choice and multiple narrative paths. It has sold more than 1 million copies, as of April 23, 2009.

So it was a niche game that still managed to sell over a million copies. Yep, sure sounds like it's a horrible failure that barely sold due to piracy.

One thing is for certain though, you do not develop and publish a title with the intent of accessing the piracy side of the market.

Apparently many current game publishers do. Did you miss the title of this story?

People pirating your game does not mean those people would magically be consumers if it was $20 cheaper.

Of course not. It's entirely possible that the game is more overpriced than $20. I've seen plenty of games on the shelf that I wouldn't have purchased at any price, let alone $50. But then, I also wouldn't waste my bandwidth pirating them either. The same is true of most people who pirate. I'd guess a good 90%+. The key point here is that (for most who pirate) if someone considers a game worth pirating, there's also some price point above manufacturing & distribution cost that they'd be willing to pay to get the game legally.

Do you have a link to a study showing that cheaper games entice pirates to purchase them?

Do you have a link to a study showing that they don't? There's plenty of evidence demonstrating that all the DRM in the world doesn't get any significant number of pirates to purchase the software they would otherwise pirate. (Indeed, there's more evidence showing that DRM instead influences people who would otherwise purchase the software to pirate instead so they don't have to deal with the DRM.) There's also plenty of evidence to demonstrate that as the price of a product drops, more people buy it.

Do you have any form of empirical data to suggest that game quality and piracy are linked?

None of this is based on empirical data on either side of the discussion, because it can't be.

Endo claims pirates can be made into consumers by simply "making great games with cheap prices" to quote him. That's what people are disputing here.

Pirates are already consumers. They're just not buying what some of the software publishers want them to. And the next time you want to quote someone, I suggest you actually do so.

Now, as to what I'm actually claiming...

Reducing prices can produce a significant net gain in influencing people to purchase instead of pirate, while DRM cannot.

some of the best games ever made sold horribly and were heavily pirated.

[Citation needed.]

That's what your whole argument is based on. Let's see some solid examples we can all agree on then, ok?

This comment was edited on Jul 31, 2009, 11:02.

According to whom or what exactly?

Everyone I know personally who pirates, and everyone I've seen post about it online who pirates.

I know a fair number of pirates who will not purchase a title unless absolutely forced to, like in the case of an MMO or game with compelling multiplayer.

And did you ever think to ask them why that is? My money says it's because every game out there, from their perspective... a.) sucks, b.) costs too much, or c.) has ridiculous restrictions on the legit version.

A software publisher can get away with a normally unacceptably high price if basically all their target market needs their product (such as Microsoft). Problem is, no one *needs* video games, and the market is way beyond flooded with ones to choose from. Not to mention the fact that video games are simply entertainment, and must also compete with many other forms of entertainment.

Yes, it's true, if you're a software developer you do have to recoup your developing costs by selling enough copies of the game to stay in business. But if the game isn't selling enough to do that, maybe you need to take another look at why your developing costs are as high as they are. Maybe the problem isn't that you're not selling enough copies of the game, but that you're putting too much money into it.

There's plenty of success stories out there to prove that people care more about fun gameplay than expensive whiz-bang features in games. If you're a developer and you're not able to sell enough to stay in business, maybe you're investing too much time and/or money into the wrong parts of your game. Or maybe the supply of what you're selling exceeds the demand, and you just won't be able to be profitable selling it.

In our entertainment industry, piracy has never yet been the difference between profitability and bankruptcy for any company, nor does it threaten to be any time soon.

What nonsense. Developers / publishers care about appealing to those that buy lots of games instead of the people that mostly pirate games.

LOL. If that were true, no one would know what DRM is because it wouldn't exist.

It's pretty stupid to target a group that has little interest in buying your product.

And the vast majority who have little interest in buying a game also won't pirate it. The vast majority of people who do pirate a game would possibly buy it if the game were good enough, the price were acceptable, and they weren't ridiculously restricted on what they're allowed to do with something they bought. Hell, a significant percentage of "pirate" downloads are people who actually purchased the item but just didn't want to deal with the BS restrictions.

And simply cutting the price isn't going to be enough to change the situation, as piracy is a mentality and not simply a money saving measure.

That is only true of the handful of groups that actually do the ripping and cracking. That includes maybe a couple hundred people in the whole world. By far most people who pirate a game do it for one of two reasons: the game is just too expensive, or they just don't want to pay for something that may end up sucking but is non-returnable. Sell it for a fair price, and you take care of the former. Release a demo, and you will get sales from the latter provided your game is good enough.

Almost any gamer will pay $10 for a game they've never actually tried. Many will pay $30. But bump that up to $50 and make it non-returnable, and I'd say you're lucky to sell it at all. You definitely won't be selling it to me. I did buy Demigod the other week though. It was $30, and the license is transferable if I don't like it. For $50 though, I'd have said no thanks.

well said,
Basically if you pirate games rather than buy them, you can spend your whole LIFE on forums whining about publishers, developers and how they are all retards who make shit games that arent worth buying or playing. None of them care. You don't make a game for people who won't buy it. By pirating you totally remove yourself from the market, and the debate. Its like complaining about the government but not voting, why should they care?

And that's where you're 100% wrong. The people the government doesn't care about are the ones that have already decided how they're going to vote. The ones they care most about are the "swing" voters, and after those the people that don't normally vote at all. By the same token, the customers the video game industry has no real reason to care about are the ones that have already decided to buy or not buy the game regardless. Most people who pirate actually do not fit in that category. They're using some of their bandwidth to download the game, that means they want it enough to at least invest *something* into getting it. Odds are if it were legally (and conveniently) available at an acceptable price point (don't kid yourself, $50 for a product you can't resell isn't even remotely acceptable) they would buy it. For me, $50 is just too much to justify even for a game I *can* resell in most cases. Thirty bucks will get you a sale though, if it's a game I want.

This comment was edited on Jul 30, 2009, 10:05.

WoW is like hot dogs. It's not particularly good, but everybody likes it.

Thankfully, I've been WoW-free for over half a year now.

Oh, so it's just adware that's going to be hogging my system and not spyware? That's great, I'm on my way out to buy their trash right now.

Really, who gives a flying fuck what the hell it is. It's not part of the game, and I don't want it on my system. At this point EA could release the best most bug-free game ever developed and I wouldn't buy it.

Again, get frickin' serious. Are you running a PC connected to the internet with any modern software installed on it? Do you have a Creative Labs soundcard? Do you have...etc., etc., etc.?
THEN YOU'VE GOT SPYWARE.

If you don't want anyone to spy on your PC, disconnect it from the internet PERMANENTLY. In any case, spare us this trivial, half-assed paranoid crap.
-L

Which proves nothing, except that you know absolutely nothing (as in zero, nada, zip, zilch, etc.) about spyware, and not much more about computers in general. I'm connected to the internet, play games online, and I can assure you with 100% certainty that no spyware is running on my computer. Just because you haven't the slightest clue how to see what's running on your computer doesn't mean no one else does.

The sad thing is, even without the spyware and yes, even without the bugs, BF2 and BF2142 both still suck.