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Signed On Feb 7, 2005, 14:02
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
72. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 22, 2009, 08:37 everyone
You can't email a statue, or a car, or a lounge chair. You're being ignorant here, either purposely or legitimately. You can email a game, it is just a keycode and a license in this case. His entire point, which I fully agree with, is that in the Internet age and with the game being just a license which the key unlocks, you have the option of local pricing in countries with lower cost of living and enforcing region restrictions or you can charge everyone the same price and then completely shaft the people in those lower income countries so they can't buy the game at all.

The internet makes us feel like we are one world, one people, the choirs singing, but we're not... there are fundemental economic differences which force regional pricing. People can't seem to grasp this idea, but it is very true. This regional pricing therefore results in the need to enforce that pricing.

Every industry is different, but the fundamentals are the same.
The gaming industry is not some special industry that should be given carte blanche to do as they please.
The reason behind them doing this has nothing to do with importing and exporting being different for video games. It's because unlike every other industry, the gaming industry has the means to try and dictate how a product is used even after purchase. Which is my problem. Consumers shouldn't be cheering that any industry has decided that it is okay to control, and in this case disable, legitimately purchased merchandise, simply because the technology exist to do so.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
70. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 22, 2009, 02:00 everyone
This is the crux of the problem; if it's one person that travels over there, spending $500 on airfare to save $10 on a game, then it's not a big deal. In the internet age, though, one person there can quite easily buy 10,000 copies and re-sell them to individuals in the US, then it becomes a major problem. It's the problem of having a digital good - there's zero transportation cost involved in selling across borders

Look, there's really only two possibilities here - either
1) The game is sold at the exact same price globally, at a price point which maximizes the revenue for the company (which basically means the US/Euro price), which means the price is vastly out of proportion to income in developing areas (which then means that they'll sell basically zero non-pirated copies in those areas)
2) The game is sold at a cost somewhat relative to (a) the wealth of that country, such that it's actually reasonable to ask people in developing countries to legally purchase it, which requires some sort of control on the good to restrict it to that region, and (b) the nature of the organization purchasing it, such that a cyber cafe / whatever can be encouraged to legally purchase a number of licenses instead of pirating the game, which also requires controlling the ability of those licenses to be spread outside that industry

Global trade isn't some new problem that is only plaguing the gaming industry. People import and export things from all over the world. Video games aren't some special category of item.

Many industries try to limit sales outside an intended market for various reasons, but this is done through the distribution/retailer side of the business. They would never try to go after end-users, they would have no legal standing to do so, and it would be counter productive to alienate customers who want to purchase your product.

To go back to someone else's example - it's the exact same situation as Microsoft selling corporate windows licenses. It makes perfect sense to sell one giant corporate license to a company, both for cost and for ease of use (not having to keep tract of tens of thousands of windows licenses), but if companies start reselling them it would destroy the value of the individual licenses

This is nothing like the Microsoft example. if a corporate key is issued, it would be copyright infringement (aka pirating) to install or resell said licenses outside of the company that purchased the licenses.
No copyright infringement takes place when importing a video game.

Now, if you want to argue that Valve should pro-actively create different types of key #'s, such that it's obvious that they're region restricted / etc, I might not disagree with you... but again, it's probably the case that Valve really doesn't generally want to bother with this (as long as it doesn't become a major problem), and it's only when they start seeing a fairly large # of people taking advantage of the loophole that they need to take action

If they deem it a serious problem, than they should be proactively policing their international resellers.

I've purchased most of the AAA 360 titles over the past couple years, and I don't think I've paid less than 25% off the entire time. If you don't think a game has $60 worth of value to you, if you wait 3 months you can easily get it for $40 (and probably less), without resorting to buying from questionable sources or importing Chinese versions or whatever.

The problem is that most gamers want to have both - they want to not pay full price (generously), but they also NEED to have it the week that it comes out.

Value means something different than cost. A game can have lots of value at $60.00 or little value at $9.99. The point I was making, is that consumers demanding value for their dollar is a good thing for all consumers.There are plenty of examples of industries failing to give consumers the value they demanded, and failing because of it.
A good example in the video game industry would be the game crash of the 80's. Too much crap, not enough value. Many people stopped buying games, and because of that multiple companies went out of business. In their place new players such as Nintendo released products that once again captured consumers interest, and money.

I wonder if Valve and Activisions actions would hold up in court. Obviously no one is going to sue a multi-billion dollar company over a $40 game, but it would be interesting to see if they could get away with such heavy handed tactics legally.

This comment was edited on Nov 22, 2009, 02:18.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
66. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 23:48 everyone
Everyone supports consumer rights to a point, but there is a level upon which you are blindly siding with ignorant consumers in a fight they should lose. At the end of the day it is very clear that these key shops are not legit, are treated as such on Steam, and the people who bought it took a chance to save a few bucks. They lost, and I have no pity for them, end of story.

I think we are probably just going to go around in circles here, but the entire reason I have a problem with this is because, from all accounts, these are legit paid for keys. No different than if I took a trip to Japan, purchased a game and brought it home with me.

The free market works because companies make things people want and are willing to pay for. Trying to save money at all costs, like buying used games or importing from countries with much lower standards of living is trying to go around the system, not helping the system.

It's not a hard concept... game developer makes game, game publisher sells game, consumer buys game if he considers it worth the money. If he doesn't, he waits, or never buys it at all. All the talk of piracy, used sales, resellers and such is just bullshit cheap-ass crap from people who want to save a buck at all cost, period. If you like games, support developers and publishers.

Value conscience consumers incentivize companies to be more efficient and offer more value in their products. Which in turn benefits all consumers, even you.

This I agree with, no other industry than PC gaming treats its customers to such high level restrictions. I assume this is directly related to the insane level of whining, thieving and sense of entitlement PC gamers tend to display. I say that as a life-long PC gamer who has never pirated anything you can buy. I go to a lot of forums and read a lot of news comments and the average PC gamer seems to be a pissy little brat who also happens to be old and stuck in his ways who thinks all payments for products should be under the honor system.

My guess would be that the reason they have implemented "high level restrictions", is because many game buyers have rolled over and accepted it.
A perfect example is one you mentioned, used games.
The secondary market is a well established fact for every other industry on the planet, yet game publishers make statements about how they are looking at ways to eliminate the used market for video games and many gamers applaud.
There seems to be no realization on the part of many gamers, that regardless of whether you personally buy/sell/trade used games. That by eliminating the used game market, it vastly decreases the value of the new product you are buying.

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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
62. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 20:07 everyone
Yea, hackers, people who stole credit card numbers, people who had their accounts hacked bc they told someone their password.

All their own fault.

So in other words, you've never heard of an instance
"where someone buys a steam game and gets banned" except for the cases where that is exactly what happened, but they deserved it, at least according to you.

The fact is that in many cases it isn't so cut and dry, such as this case. From all reports these were legit foreign CD keys that activision was paid for, yet were banned anyway.
Such a case only lends credence to people who have been weary about putting our trust in a third party for profit company as the gate keeper to our legally purchased games.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
60. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 17:31 everyone
When you install the game - it most certainly DOES say that. You know that part where you just click NEXT 4-5 times? Yeah, it was right there.

I'm pretty sure someone reselling a CD key isn't going install the game first. That would make the CD key useless.

I have NEVER heard of an accord where someone buys a "Steam" game and gets banned.....I think you are confused.

If you buy from Steam - that is your license.

You've never heard of someone being banned from steam and losing access to their games?? Obviously you've never read the steam message boards.
"steam" games refer to retail boxed games that are sold from various retailers, yet still require steam to function.

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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
57. Re: MW2 Key Bans Nov 21, 2009, 16:34 everyone
Simple...if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. You are not going to get a game that costs $50+ for $10 or whatever. End of story.

After your comment I checked on pricing. On a large cdkey resellers website, they are selling MW2 for $51.70.

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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
56. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 16:29 everyone
I support Valve's right to restrict access to their service for customers who haven't actually paid for it. This is MW2, a game not developed by Valve, published by Activation, so if a 3rd party doesn't want to support the game through their service when it wasn't purchased through thier service...isn't that their perogative?

But I think they're missing a golden opportunity here to allow these people to pay the additional cost to upgrade to a fully legitimate copy of the game.

The problem is that the game has specifically been designed to only work via steam. It isn't some additional service, such as Xbox live.

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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
55. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 16:26 everyone
I do not defend publishers no matter what and can point to endless times I have not, but what I will say I do is care about the industry and its success, for a myriad of reasons, the most common sense of which is I like great games and want to see more of them made, especially on PC.

I too want a strong gaming industry, but not at the expense of the consumer. Unfortunately, I think we would disagree about whether instances such as this, make the industry stronger or weaker. I see a situation that will almost assuredly encourage additional piracy and create more hesitancy for some consumers (such as myself) to embrace digital distribution.

Yes. The publisher sets a price in a region for the product they invested in and the developer created. If the game is not worth that price, move on, buy it later or don't buy it. Saying the game is worth getting but then going to endless means to give as little compensation for the product you are about to enjoy to those who created it is being a cheap ass, you're damn right.

The free market works by companies trying to make as much money as possible, and consumers trying to get as much value as possible. A balance is created by the two opposing forces.

They sell a restricted license and when it is found to have been used in a way not licensed, they revoke it. Seems pretty simple to me. If you buy an unauthorized key to a license that is not allowed to be sold to you in the internet equivalent to a back alley it's your fault if it ends up not working out very well.

No other industry would go after their end-users for problems in their distribution chain. Which is actually the crux of the matter, no other industry could. Too much power has been taken by the gaming industry in the form of DRM and digital distribution to dictate terms, even after a sale has been completed. It's ironic really, because unlike almost every other industry, the gaming industry has to contend with the reality that people can easily obtain their product free of charge at any time. They should be working to create additional customer loyalty, not squandering what little they have left on small potatoes like this situation.

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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
42. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 10:12 everyone
The simple fact of the matter is that a lot of people will go to endless means to get the cheapest price possible and screw the developers and publisher. I don't really feel sorry for these people, at all.

If you are surfing reseller sites to try and get MW2 on release week for half-price, you deserve to be treated like the cheap-ass you are. End of story.

I'm not sure if you just like playing devils advocate, or you're simply a shill. But in almost every comment I read of yours, you endlessly defend publishers no matter what they do.
Let me get this straight... Publishers and devs should make as much money as possible, but consumers who try to get a good deal are "cheap asses"?

If publishers don't feel they are making enough money off these bulk/foreign licenses than all they have to do it stop selling them. At the very least, they should be going after the retailers who originally purchased the licenses and not the end user.

If I break a reseller agreement, the company I'm dealing with comes after me (normally, simply by not selling to me anymore) not my customers and by extension their customers.

This comment was edited on Nov 21, 2009, 10:13.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
38. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 09:17 everyone
There's some guy outside with a trench coat and Rolexes saying, "Psst - wanna buy a watch?" You can buy one if you want. You can even pretend they're real. If you really believe they're real, though, you're a fool.

And what if Rolex decided to sell the exact same watch in different markets for 50-75% less than the US. Would you support them somehow remotely disabling said watches if someone decided to import some from Asia and resell them in the US? How much control should a company be able to maintain over their product after it has already been sold?
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
36. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 09:02 everyone
I've also seen (J), but I'm not sure what that means.

I think (J) is jewel case only.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
34. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 08:42 everyone
Pretty sure anything from Gogamer with an (I) in its titles is a international version.  
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
33. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 08:38 everyone
No, they're keys that were sold in bulk for use on cyber cafe LANs. They aren't licensed for use in home PCs, therefore Valve were in their right to bin them.

It's like trying to activate Windows XP with the devils0wn FCKGW key...

First you admit that these are legally purchased keys; simply being used for a purpose other than activision intended. Than go on to compare it to a key exploit that allowed people to use a fraudulent volume license to pirate windows XP. Talk about apples to oranges...
If you wanted to make a somewhat valid comparison, you would need to look at people selling OEM/student versions of windows on eBay.

This comment was edited on Nov 21, 2009, 08:39.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
21. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 02:58 everyone
When you buy a game, it specifically mentions that it's for personal use and not to be resold or used for commercial interests etc.

Most of my games certainly don't say anything about that on the packaging. If the publishers can't get a handle on bulk/foreign licenses than they should discontinue selling them, not try to punish consumers for making legal transactions.

I'm sure steam per their TOS they can pretty much do anything they want. It doesn't make it right, and certainly doesn't mean consumers should applaud them for doing so.

Personally, I am unwilling to hand over control of legally purchased products to a third party. Which is why I don't use steam for full price purchases (I have lower standards for $9.99 games).
This action by Valve, even though it doesn't affect me, helps to reinforce why giving a third party control of your purchases is a bad idea.
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
18. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 01:25 everyone
If these are fraudulent keys than fine ban them. But, it sounds like these are legit keys that are simply sold in bulk and/or sold in other regions for less. Hence the reason they are calling them grey market instead of fraudulent. Obviously activision makes something on these keys or they wouldn't sell them in the first place.  
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News Comments > Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys
16. Re: Steam Bans Grey Market MW2 Keys Nov 21, 2009, 00:57 everyone
This is exactly the reason why I refuse to buy "steam" only games. I'm not going to purchase something which I can be locked out of or banned from using on the whim of some company.

Global trade is the norm nowadays, it is foolhardy to believe that these companies didn't realize that by selling their games cheaper in other regions, that copies of those games would be imported back into the regions with higher pricing.
How many games on Gogamer are international versions? Are these "grey market" as well.

It's hilarious that companies complain about piracy while consistently running off their paying customers... How much do you want to bet that most of the people banned will simply pirate a copy of the game, and most likely future steam titles as well.
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News Comments > Supreme Commander 2 in Spring
7. Re: Supreme Commander 2 in Spring Nov 18, 2009, 14:39 everyone
After the terrible xbox port of the original (based on reviews). I wonder if they'll build the sequel from the ground up for consoles. If so, it will be worse than the original.

What I would love to see is a rts set in modern times using the supcom engine.
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News Comments > id Software Hiring
3. Re: id Software Hiring Nov 11, 2009, 23:51 everyone
May I venture a guess? Fallout Online. All the pieces are in place; just saying!

Other than the fact that id has zero experience developing an MMO? No, I don't think so ...
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News Comments > Borderlands' Firm Street Dates
121. Re: Borderlands Dates Oct 25, 2009, 17:56 everyone
PC Warez version is out - whole 5 days before EU release date- whole day before american release (Unlock) date.

I would hold off on d/ling that if I were you. It appears to contain a trojan horse.
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News Comments > Borderlands' Firm Street Dates
10. Re: Borderlands' Firm Street Dates Oct 24, 2009, 14:01 everyone
"Because you are so fucking worried about piracy, you are telling those people who spent 50 dollars on your game 'FUCK YOU, YOU CAN'T PLAY IT YET."

I know what you mean, I bought it on Steam and Pre-loaded, WHY IN THE FUCK CAN I NOT PLAY IT YET!?!?!? I already paid for it and it is taking up space on my HD, yet I have to wait until it can be unlocked via Steam. Wah! Wah! Wah! Life is so fucking unfair!!!

Seriously, gamers have have the largest majority of whiny bitches of any hobby anywhere.

This comment was edited on Oct 24, 2009, 14:03.
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619 Comments. 31 pages. Viewing page 15.
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