'm00t'

It's funny you should ask me to offer up a few suggested scenarios for a "Cooperative" based game. I actually have two ideas for two games that I dreamed of making with the help of a few talented individuals. But, being an artist has it's limitations - That would be: "No *one* can do everything *themself*."

Thankfully it won't require the enlisting of 3DRealms.. they take forever you know ;)?

One idea deals with a possible future (Sci Fi/ Horror) and the other has to do with the present eminities. One will be extremely adventurous and graphically violent in content and the other will be based on fun and extreme competition for all ages...

... Well, not quite. No 0 - 12 years old. That's all I can say. I'd be selling my idea before it hit the table for an offer :D.

I think my email is on my 'The Dude' account?


This comment was edited on May 15, 13:11.

Hey m00t,

Thanks for the bit of education. But, I guess I should point out a few things.

1) I brought up the engine design legacy versus non because they are relevant to the ease at which a developer can employ procedures. If you have a game engine heavily encumbered with particle effects, physics, model deformation, etc, etc... people become fatigued and sometimes forget to concentrate on other aspects of realism.

2) The Doom characters *ARE* bitmap mapped based then converted to a sprite(much like an animated gif image) then moved along the background or map.

3) the movement of walls and floors.. well, I'm not techinically proficient with game design language, but as you said I remember a term called scaling. A procedure which allows a designer to rotate an image on an "X" and "Y" axis or zoom in and out on "Z" axis hence, movement as you say.

4) Okay, maybe the Doom engines had no polygons, but vector graphics and scaling utilized the same principle of moving a static object along it's axis. in the case of Doom, a large image map is basically the same as moving a solid object around. WHICH is in the family as a single Polygon stretched into the shape of a rectangle or box and manipulated.

Then Quake changed the dynamics of the doom legacy to polygon based objects which move more fluid.

5) Doom, Quake, and Quake 2 yes you're right, used triggers... if you want to count that as scripted be my guest? I don't, at least no in the sense that the entirety of using code is on big script. and Quake 2 on a few of the monsters deployed AI on a miniscule level.

As for your rendition on the difficulty of setting up a non-linear or dynamic environment. I don't buy it. It does take time, I grant you that. Money? that's debatebale because that's dependant upon how the team chooses to preplan the story and who's included at the thought level. But, it is doable. Bureacracy creates the problem in my opinion. Resulting in the programmers throwing their hands in the air voicing: "It's not doable in the current time constraints!" That's why some Bot(s) AI looks good and some doesn't.

AI that selects multiple targets through choice, or ducks, takes cover, focuses on a specific key holder. All this is being done , but the right people are at the wrong places somtimes. As for id "Oh well??" I'll give you some examples of some rather decently evolved Co-Op, albeit dated now: Hidden & Dangerous 1, MOHAA, and a few bargian basement titles Dirty Dozen. And I'm sure it was quite a feat. But, these titles came out and were rather challenging and I don't recall any substantial delays, dodging or many complaints in making these titles???

Over all 'm00t' I am a better Artist than a programmer. I understand some aspects of programming, but I really don't think I can competently compete with the big leagues unless I was in a position of Project Lead. Then I would be kicking asses and taking names.


5) This is just getting too lengthy and too tiresome to debate.


This comment was edited on May 14, 13:28.

"WOW!" 'm00t'

There's a problem with a statment you made, that would be this exerp: "And co-op (good co-op) is hard to do...
Co-op in Quake and Doom was patched on top of the single player game. It was very easy to cheat the scripts and get through the game faster and was horribly unbalanced."

Actually the original legacy based Doom series were bitmap/ sprite based characters and the walls were polygonal. What this meant is that the subroutines that involked the simple manners of telling one avatar to focus on the first John(s) that moves or strikes resulted in a food fight.

Not even Quake 1 or 2 used a scripted environment (God I hope I'm not wrong.. But, I know I'm not). If you recall the days of making Quake movies, that was the only time a semblance of a scripted environment took place using Quake and those TCs.

By the turn of the passing few years: 97, 98 (almost a decade ago) scripting became a big: hence Half Life and Stracraft and Unreal. But, if you took note you would notice Starcraft had the flexibility in it's code to respond to more than one avatar.. Kudos to Blizzard.. ahem the dev team.

Scripting is just an easier way of handling the experience of *your* human controlled avatar versus the computer controlled avatar(s)when the Lazy developer wants *YOU* to keep on path with a linear cinematic experience for the ticket price of $49.99. Valve just shrink wrapped in better than the others.

That simple, Dude. These modern day Picasso's want to bill everything as some ornate feat to carry out. When in reality they are at the limit of their capabilities. In other words: THEY are FULL of SHIT.

Simply put: "The Peter Principle"

The real reason why Co-Op is not built into a game... And I mean this for every code monkey out their involved in some aspect of C+++ or any variant cocktail coding. "THEY'RE FUCKING LAZY!"

The Powers-that-be have decided it's cheaper to build a game based on a linear track than a dynamic. Hence, you have a mummification or dumbification of good ole know how; variable routines that can be called on from a library of possible choices for a specific characacter profile. I'm a half ass code user and I know more about situational responses than guys making the games...

It's late though... I gotta go


This comment was edited on May 14, 03:06.

Hey Tango,

While your perspective and insight rings tons of logic... and made me pause for a moment. My mind came back to present day as I just can't help but be overcomed by the overwelming feeling that Id has never really been good at implementing AI for any variant of their games. Carmack is a Scene Designer/Canvas Maker not a Scriptwriter/ Painter.

Presently, Id has supposedly the best talent on the market, so they say. I don't know about that??? id's not a think tank in the world of FPS. That's for sure.

But, you did hit on a point that made me think hmmmmmmmmmm?? Maybe, just maybe id had Micro$t pay for use of the id proprietary engine. Since both corporations seem to do all the handshaking with lawyerly conduct. Which would mean if the Xbox dev team is spearheading some cooprative function in the Xbox version then coop should turn out far worse than the idea that Hollenshead is bald faced side stepping on.

I myself still feel id has sold us short. But, now I am feeling a bit more justified in my rhetoric that the Coop thing could be a bad decision for id to deal with. On the bright side id realized they have their limits. They don't have the talent for such a feat and "Viola!"

When and if I do buy Doom 3 (which I'm sure I will buy it on some involuntary impulse) I will except the notion that I am purchasing a game based on the best efforts of a once descent company... now meeting the mark of ho hum.

HALF-LIFE 2 should be far more intoxicating


This comment was edited on May 13, 19:16.

True. I'm aware of what the consensous was on the Doom3 PC version from past commentary. And you're right, Micro$ needs a gimmick considering they can't invent anything on their own volition.

I really didn't want my comments to become to long winded as I have tendancy to do that. I wanted to express more disdain for id/ an-id-subsidiary giving something more to the console market regardless of platforms plus or minus. And in typical fashion every comment Todd Hollendshead makes, never makes sense. Especially his comments on scripted sequences. Maybe id needs to consult with the folks at CRYTEK (aka Farcry) and take example about their procedures on AI in a multi user environment.

It would be very disappointing if the Doom3's AI is just marginally better than the leaked Alpha??? (I'm sure it will bem much better)


This comment was edited on May 13, 14:14.

"WHAT A CROCK!"

I agree with all of you. How short sighted does Mr. id CEO Todd Hollenshead think our memories are? id has just shown to us *all* they have given into the pressures of money and politics they couldn't refuse from Microsoft...

I guess the bad boys of game design have now become the suit and ties of monopoly. What a bunch of Mary Poppin fags!" Please excuse my use of fervent disgust.

... If I might recall years back, Carmack made very vocal/ written statements "We are a private company and will not play to the will any corporations..."

"yeah!" "yeah!" what a steaming pile that was.

And not to sound redundant, but I need to echo my feelings. WTF does Xbox Coop have to do with being a better experience than PC? I can guarantee the genius Todd signed a contract of exclusivity with Micro$ stating: "id would not provide any coop upgrades/innovations to the PC version for reciept of this money for x amount of years"

What a joke... Id is now Microsoft's "BITCH!"

I hope the entire PC community turns their back on Id... I for one don't even visit the id website anymore, It's become too much legal bureaucracy. This is simply too much hegemony for me.

Half-Life 2 is looking like it will have the better experience day or night.

That's just so perplexing to me, how a show rated so high, and the main characters in the show can garner million dollar paychecks can have such a uninanomous lack of viewership??? I just don't get it? I never watch the show becuase it bores me watching everyone being such whiners and ass kissers. The only person(s)I know amongst my: "friends", watching this powder puff show are women in foriegn countries that think Friends is the standard of American lifestyle.

and "Everyone loves Ray" trails right behind. I guess it's who ya know that gets you paid?

interesting??? More doom...

I see doom....

-bwa-,

Actually, coop with interaction of AI entails a whole different set of scripting and variables. Particularly how avatars react to multiple agents in game. Especially...

Here's an example:
Although Quake 2 is designed for Coop, if you notice the shortcoming in it's coop programming can be observed when the non-players always focus and shoot at the guy who shot first and it can become a turkey shoot for the guy standing on the side lines... That's not fun at all

Serious Sam was a lot better but it could still end up being that way sometimes. But the offset, was just the sheer volume of monsters would compensate for the idea of thinking you could just camp out and do a turkey shoot.

Now when I use the term 'turkey shoot', I mean domesticated turkeys. Because, they're so stupid they'll just sit there watching their comrades getting blown to bits and not do much panicing sometimes trying to eat their fallen fella. "Now that's pathetic!".

... In the sense of a game hosted for 4 player, but only 3 players, partake in the exploits and the companion player needing control by a human from time to time. It's not as easy as it seems but, it defintely isn't impossible like the guys at Illusion try to make come off.

It's just too bad, when companies are in their infancy cooperative modes are a non-issue and implemented by default. Then as companies arrive at a more realized stage all of a sudden everything gets marginalized and cost, of course cost meaning: how much can we recieve for adding the same the ole shit we did for nothing, becomes the key reason...

"I don't buy it!" Illusion is being incredulous and lazy.






-The Dude-

Vic B.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 22:50.

I'll put it in very simple terms...

Money causes most companies to see their orignal ambitions in a much different light. H&D 1 was designed on an open ended time frame by guys in a far more economically challeneged corner of the world having fun. In poland, the guys had nothing better to do than to hone their skills. But, now that they have contracts and media attention they develop their products from a much different persepective. It's called "the-more-money-the-more-you-get" syndrome. Illusion Softworks doesn't own their product anymore, they just work there.

Welcome to effects of capitolization...

Take form me, I was a "GI-NORMACE" fan of H&D. I ended up finding a secondary but shitter solution, I started playing this game called "Deadly Dozen" (both the WWII European and Pacicific theater versions) a H&D ripoff that played just as good.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 16:57.

"WOW!" How did I miss being called a moron? Well, 'space captain' as your name implies, you obviously must have been in orbit around some other planet at the time Valve surfaced as a company... were you struck by a couple astroids while you were out there?


1) Valve formed in the mid 1997/...

2) Half-Life was never intended as a "Mod" and always had retail as the target market.

3) Quake 2 was released in late 1997

4) Half-Life was delayed in 97' for engine optimizations because of the out-moded Quake 1 engine. which in turn delayed public expectation for retail commitments

5) Half Life was released in Late 1998, "Who YA!"

Lastly, Sierra is a distribution channel and marketing firm for Valve.. they "do not" own one percent of Valve. Why is you think Valve can develop a product for unspecified timelines... you idiot

Get your facts straight before you blow little golden nuggets of stupidity on my satirical anthems

So smart guy here's a dumb quiz for you: does iD own iD or does Activision? And how would you categorize their relationship?

OH yeah, and "Gunman" was so buggy it never made to the Half-Life sanctimonious status or approval for add-on/expansion. The developer Rewolf had to make their money back for the losses in dev time and cost and repair... that's why it went retail . At that point the only thing "Gunman Chronicles" had in common with Valve's 'Half-Life", was the engine and Sierra.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 19:05.

I might still have them, we'll have to talk about it offline... you know the ever watchful eye????

Jedi.. I missed your infectous, impetuous, pompous propagandizing, rebel-rousing stylized mannerisms too

May I ask you? Do you have a spot of tea before or after you take time to rake me through the coals or are you purely in exlax- mode most of the time?


Anyway "cheers!" to you also Jedi. I'm sure I'm in deep shit now that I've resurfaced. Which, in actuality, I do have a life outside of visitng Blue's. I just took a little break from the research I'm doing on what some would deem a completely worthless project [ you know? that techie stuff? making a better solution: I'm working on the delivery system at present. I'll deal with the Vars later ]... and decided to come to the fantasy zone to toss a few biscuits.

Get ready for more malapropisms.

I do realize that some of you here are paid as professionals in this forum and do quite well at living the dream...

"OH!" :O and just to stay on subject Sir 'Chance'. It's obvious Valve burst the iD bubble. They did it when Quake 2 came out and continue to still do so. Now that doesn't diminish the fact that Doom and Quake are fun games. For me, Doom was "the" game and Quake was short but sweet. But now iD can kiss my ass. Valve, plainly has a game that challenges many more areas of the psyche than the nightmarish images iD's satanic facination conjures up.

But, I know my words fall on deaf ears because you see this from a totally different perspective. you even brought up football as a segue.

If you ask me personally, I thing iD really fucked up when they became too letigous and bit at anyone trying to improve on their lack of vision (not innovation)

A classic, to me, that blows Jdoom , Zdoom and other incarnations was the Mod Quake Generations. That was such cool Mod. Yeah, yeah, I know about the 3D models you can import into the Doom revisions. They suck and the maps are still flat. An idea perhaps? iD let it slip through their fingers like liquid gold. Loosing what I think was an excellent opportunity. Anyway, ASTAS' Folks

Anyone need the files? I found them in china a long time ago. and now they're buried in the archieves. it's considered serious contraband by iD

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 02:23.

I read about Dillusions?

trolls????

WTF?

but, I still don't understand the points.

"WHEN!"

The fact is...

...Valve did an outstanding job in creating a sequel. Not to mention more eye candy than you can bitch at for 4 years and intelligence that will have you kissing your great-grandpa's tired wrinkled ass [I could have actually used verbage more contemporary and mature but I get the feeling some of you fellas could care less]. Regardless of Valves public cry of foul, compremise, theft, boohoo to the loss of 1/4, 3/4s vital code. No one as of yet has created a demo out of the suspect code anyway...

Whereas iD has not only had their Alpha-demo passed around like a 2 dollar whore in Naval bachelor party (thanks to Kazaa). Might I add: "did not do the game any justice", considering how poorly the avatars are scripted. I just hope that's not a reflection of something we can expect, more zombies??? not to forget the massive hematoma of past employees.. and egos the size of Walmart.

So, to all you whiners.. iD can kiss my ass red, white, and blue, and black *AND* yellow.. they're punks HA HA HA

I'll still buy the game anyway... but it WILL quote: "be my bitch" (famous last words of JR)

Half Life2 sets the bar for years to come. Something of what could/ should be expected for true gaming experience.

No if, ands, or buts, about it you conjuctaphiles

I don't care if I had no hands or feet. Half Life 2 is worth every cent it cost...I was really blown away by the achievement, were as in typical fashion Doom came in in those true vivid 16 colors. Not even worth converting to DVD for an encore big screen performance.

As my closing point.. at least you don't have to sit around outside rocking in chair on your Ma's porch like some shriveled up toothless curmudgeon waiting for 50 FUCKING years for some so called steaming pile of shit: "Duke Nukem 4 Ever"... because it's now a dried up, crusty, wind blown turd.

"WHEW! I'm exhausted"

This comment was edited on Dec 15, 23:00.

Is this really Blue? or is this the conglomerant...something strange is going on here with the OOTB comments here... I mean I'm getting an ERIE Feeling here...

This comment was edited on Dec 10, 04:19.

This is really old news????? H&D2 has been out here In Los Angeles since Tuesday

I'm sorry to hear about your loss 'Blue'. But just like you I have felt that same sting and the emptiness of loosing family close to me. You're not alone. I'll share with you that in the corner of my mind I hear and see the image of them and I know they are saying to me: "Vic, continue with the pursuit of your dreams and those things that make you happiest. Live your life to the fullest."

I think you are doing the noble thing Blue... The proper thing and that is to get back in stride with what you enjoy most. Life is full of unexpected challenges and family can be one of the greatest when realities such as this are visited to us.

I'm glad you are back ....

As well, like everyone else expresses Blue. I'm sorry to hear about the unfortunate circumstance your mother Mrs. Blue is in.

My heart goes out to you and your strength and sacrifice for your Mom trumps all else. Everything else is secondary. I'll still be here waiting for your Blue's updates no matter how great or minor. Blue, your site is my favorite communion point.

take care

HA HA HA Danny Boy!"
This is in reply to a prevous post you made to me here:
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=43282&boardid=1&id=103287&view=flatnew&start=0

Once again you have made a case of ignorance for yourself.
Simile, is when you take two words that don't mean the same and put them together as a word...

you know? like M-E-T-A-P-H-O-R? You have a long ways to go man.. ha ha ha ha.

You can't win with me Dude, matter a fact Blue just posted a new item that states ATI has said HL2 will definetly be arriving on the shelf by Sept 12, 2003. But Valve will not support it with comments. I'd say that about plays into the role of modesty. ;p

-The Dude-

Vic B.

This comment was edited on Aug 3, 13:35.