Scallywag Sally wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 13:52:
Noice discussion! Don't see that happen much here lol. Allow me to pause my Marvel Rivals Diamond 2 (I know, I'm that good) progression for this *grabs popcorn*
Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 11:52:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:39:Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:17:
So what games do you think are woke?
Cutter recently identified this newly announced Tron game as woke.
https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&boardid=1&threadid=276874&id=1447580
Do you agree, or do you distance yourself from that kind of usage of the word?
Would you have to decide if you didn't like what it was doing first?
What can it do? How far can it go before it's your new kind of woke... the bad kind of woke?
No, the new TRON game isn’t woke just because it has a black female protagonist. Representation alone doesnt make something woke -- unless it’s forced into a setting where it clearly doesn’t belong, like shoving diversity into a realistic portrayal of 16th-century Bohemia. The KCD fans would go postal over that, and rightly so -- but that’s another discussion.
"Wokeness" is when the story stops being about entertaining or engaging and starts preaching. Writing TRON off only based on a character’s race or gender is fucking ridiculous.
See, we'll have to disagree here. I agree with Cutter. I think the new Tron game is woke.
Or more accurately, I think it was woke of the developers to choose to make the protagonist of their sci-fi game a black female, likely as a an attempt to rectify the dearth of such representation in games.
But as you said, I'm operating under the "outdated definition", the original definition, the real definition.
The good kind of woke, not the bad kind of woke.
And for you to determine the difference, your own definition requires you to evaluate how you feel about the (original definition) wokeness.
It only enters your "woke" if you feel condescended to, if the wokeness feels like it has an air of moral superiority to you.
I'm glad that just having a black female protagonist isn't the bad kind of woke to you but rather the good "outdated" kind.
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 10:17:fujiJuice wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 08:19:Oh, we’ve seen.
Perhaps you haven't seen how they are responding to the California wildfires.
Republican congressman calls for halting of disaster relief to California
Un Fucking Believable
Beamer wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 09:39:fujiJuice wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 08:19:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 07:12:fujiJuice wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:54:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:39:
For me, "woke" media often crosses the line when it shifts from presenting ideas to prescribing them, framing one perspective as the only “enlightened” one. That’s where the sense of moral superiority comes in -- it’s not the topics themselves but the way they’re delivered.
So is conservative media woke? Sounds a lot like the things I have seen from them. In fact they quite often say people that don't agree with them are evil and they preach their own values as the only true way. Are Donald Trump and Elon Musk woke? All they do is espouse their own beliefs while condemning everything else, no exceptions.
No, conservative media isn’t “woke” by the definition I’m using. Wokeness is tied to a specific style of moral superiority in media -- prioritizing virtue-signaling over storytelling or constantly redirecting attention from one issue to another. For example, using a hurricane to repeatedly highlight systemic inequities can feel like an unnecessary politicization, especially when it overshadows the primary story. It’s this tendency to make everything about one overarching narrative that turns people off.
Perhaps you haven't seen how they are responding to the California wildfires.Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:39:
Preaching, regardless of the source, isn’t great -- but it’s not the same as being woke. Calling Trump or Musk woke just twists the term into “anything I don’t like,” which makes it meaningless.
It certainly seems as though that is how you are treating it.
Like Sepharo I'm curious what games you consider woke.
You mean like using a fire to constantly highlight systematic inequalities can feel like an unnecessary polarization. Unfortunately, since the guy you're responding to agrees with those politics, he can't see how it's what he rails against, only at a higher level. Especially since he complains about private individuals doing it, but has no issue when politicians he supports are doing it with the California wildfires.
The people that cry loudest about small government and freedom of speech seem to always get angry at private individuals while defending their own politicians doing the same thing.
fujiJuice wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 08:19:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 07:12:fujiJuice wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:54:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:39:
For me, "woke" media often crosses the line when it shifts from presenting ideas to prescribing them, framing one perspective as the only “enlightened” one. That’s where the sense of moral superiority comes in -- it’s not the topics themselves but the way they’re delivered.
So is conservative media woke? Sounds a lot like the things I have seen from them. In fact they quite often say people that don't agree with them are evil and they preach their own values as the only true way. Are Donald Trump and Elon Musk woke? All they do is espouse their own beliefs while condemning everything else, no exceptions.
No, conservative media isn’t “woke” by the definition I’m using. Wokeness is tied to a specific style of moral superiority in media -- prioritizing virtue-signaling over storytelling or constantly redirecting attention from one issue to another. For example, using a hurricane to repeatedly highlight systemic inequities can feel like an unnecessary politicization, especially when it overshadows the primary story. It’s this tendency to make everything about one overarching narrative that turns people off.
Perhaps you haven't seen how they are responding to the California wildfires.Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:39:
Preaching, regardless of the source, isn’t great -- but it’s not the same as being woke. Calling Trump or Musk woke just twists the term into “anything I don’t like,” which makes it meaningless.
It certainly seems as though that is how you are treating it.
Like Sepharo I'm curious what games you consider woke.
fujiJuice wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:54:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:39:
For me, "woke" media often crosses the line when it shifts from presenting ideas to prescribing them, framing one perspective as the only “enlightened” one. That’s where the sense of moral superiority comes in -- it’s not the topics themselves but the way they’re delivered.
So is conservative media woke? Sounds a lot like the things I have seen from them. In fact they quite often say people that don't agree with them are evil and they preach their own values as the only true way. Are Donald Trump and Elon Musk woke? All they do is espouse their own beliefs while condemning everything else, no exceptions.
Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:17:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 06:10:
The thing is, this isn’t just my personal take; a significant portion of the public perceives "wokeness" in media the same way I do. That perception shapes how these stories are received, whether Sepharo agrees with it or not.
For me, "woke" media often crosses the line when it shifts from presenting ideas to prescribing them, framing one perspective as the only “enlightened” one. That’s where the sense of moral superiority comes in -- it’s not the topics themselves but the way they’re delivered. When it feels like creators are more interested in lecturing or virtue-signaling than telling a story, it alienates people who don’t already agree with the messaging.
I'm not aware of Star Trek: Discovery's controversies. But I can imagine why you might find its handling of social topics great: it probably resonates with you? But for a lot of people, I guess the messaging feels heavy-handed, overshadowing the narrative and coming across as condescending (again, not aware of Discovery)? And that’s a problem, because media is at its best when it engages and challenges its audience, not when it preaches to them.
Compare that to GTA, which satirizes everyone and everything indiscriminately. It doesn’t tell you what to think -- it holds up a mirror and lets you draw your own conclusions. That’s the kind of approach that connects with a wider audience, and it’s why many people, like me, push back on “woke” storytelling. It’s not just about avoiding tough topics; it’s about respecting the audience enough to explore them without preaching.
So what games do you think are woke?
Cutter recently identified this newly announced Tron game as woke.
https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&boardid=1&threadid=276874&id=1447580
Do you agree, or do you distance yourself from that kind of usage of the word?
Would you have to decide if you didn't like what it was doing first?
What can it do? How far can it go before it's your new kind of woke... the bad kind of woke?
Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 05:38:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 05:29:Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 05:05:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:59:Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:24:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:09:Sepharo wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 13:03:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 10:52:
The end of wokeness is near, because it doesn't sell. It doesn't sell, because people don't want to be talked down to. The GTA5 example is nonsense. Woke isn't simply "the presence of black people". If you don't get that yet, you never will. And that doesn't matter, because the end of wokeness is near anyway -- so everything that transpired happened while you were blissfully ignorant about it.
This should be interesting...
GTA series... woke or not woke?
The GTA series isn’t woke. It’s a parody of tropes -- it doesn’t lecture or talk down to its audience in a condescending attempt to dictate how they should think or feel.
It's absolutely woke.
It's a skewering satire of America's social and racial inequalities.
It's as woke as Blazing Saddles... a movie that today's anti-wokers think "could never be made today" because they miss the point entirely.
Case in point: you’re stuck using an outdated definition -- just like RedEye. If you haven’t grasped the current meaning of “woke” that people are discussing these days, you likely never will. Trying to have a dialogue about it with you guys is absolutely futile.
Oh, I've definitely grasped the meaning... "Things I don't like are woke."
20 years ago they would have used "politically correct" the same way.
Gotta have that boogeyman.
You’re deflecting. “Woke” isn’t some catch-all for “things I don’t like,” nor is it a lazy rebranding of “politically correct.” It’s a term that’s evolved to represent an overbearing moral superiority that lectures its audience, often in a way that alienates more than it resonates.
The difference with GTA is that it doesn’t do that. Its satire punches at everyone and everything equally, without taking itself too seriously or trying to preach. That’s why it works. Compare that to modern “woke” storytelling, which often alienates by talking down to its audience and insisting on a single “correct” perspective.
It’s not about a boogeyman -- it’s about respecting your audience enough to let them think for themselves.
What if I disagree?
What if I think GTA is preaching?
What if I disagree?
What if I think the way Star Trek: Discovery handled social topics was great and not condescending?
"Condescending" and moral superiority seem to be a big part of your definition.
Why do you feel that way about woke-ness in media?
I certainly don't feel condescended to or that writers feel that they're morally superior to me.
Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 05:05:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:59:Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:24:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:09:Sepharo wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 13:03:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 10:52:
The end of wokeness is near, because it doesn't sell. It doesn't sell, because people don't want to be talked down to. The GTA5 example is nonsense. Woke isn't simply "the presence of black people". If you don't get that yet, you never will. And that doesn't matter, because the end of wokeness is near anyway -- so everything that transpired happened while you were blissfully ignorant about it.
This should be interesting...
GTA series... woke or not woke?
The GTA series isn’t woke. It’s a parody of tropes -- it doesn’t lecture or talk down to its audience in a condescending attempt to dictate how they should think or feel.
It's absolutely woke.
It's a skewering satire of America's social and racial inequalities.
It's as woke as Blazing Saddles... a movie that today's anti-wokers think "could never be made today" because they miss the point entirely.
Case in point: you’re stuck using an outdated definition -- just like RedEye. If you haven’t grasped the current meaning of “woke” that people are discussing these days, you likely never will. Trying to have a dialogue about it with you guys is absolutely futile.
Oh, I've definitely grasped the meaning... "Things I don't like are woke."
20 years ago they would have used "politically correct" the same way.
Gotta have that boogeyman.
Sepharo wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:24:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 14, 2025, 04:09:Sepharo wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 13:03:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 10:52:
The end of wokeness is near, because it doesn't sell. It doesn't sell, because people don't want to be talked down to. The GTA5 example is nonsense. Woke isn't simply "the presence of black people". If you don't get that yet, you never will. And that doesn't matter, because the end of wokeness is near anyway -- so everything that transpired happened while you were blissfully ignorant about it.
This should be interesting...
GTA series... woke or not woke?
The GTA series isn’t woke. It’s a parody of tropes -- it doesn’t lecture or talk down to its audience in a condescending attempt to dictate how they should think or feel.
It's absolutely woke.
It's a skewering satire of America's social and racial inequalities.
It's as woke as Blazing Saddles... a movie that today's anti-wokers think "could never be made today" because they miss the point entirely.
Sepharo wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 13:03:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Jan 13, 2025, 10:52:
The end of wokeness is near, because it doesn't sell. It doesn't sell, because people don't want to be talked down to. The GTA5 example is nonsense. Woke isn't simply "the presence of black people". If you don't get that yet, you never will. And that doesn't matter, because the end of wokeness is near anyway -- so everything that transpired happened while you were blissfully ignorant about it.
This should be interesting...
GTA series... woke or not woke?
WannaLogAlready wrote on Nov 10, 2024, 15:55:
Most of Trump's voters are the poorly educated and mentally ill prepared to inform themselves properly, whose limited mentative capacities don't let them find the truth among all the blatantly idiotic propaganda and lying.
The too simple people, who let their populist political group or rich religious leaders to decide for them.
One example, young male blacks and latins, systemically kept apart from a good education, the better to be duped and manipulated.
They believe that their wealthy masters care for them and not for the money they squeeze from them.
Trump is a cretin, a failed businessmen afloat by grifts, scams and unpayed bills, recognized as such the world over.
He would be a Putin or an Orban, but his mediocrity allows him to be just a clownish Lukashenko.
Only people as limited as him fail to see him for what he is, excepting those who benefit who smirk and applaud.
And the USA is already paying the price, and will for a generation for his stunted insecure personality that knows no sympathy for anyone but himself.
Riahderymnmaddog wrote on Nov 6, 2024, 17:03:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Nov 6, 2024, 09:58:
* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Nov 6, 2024, 10:42. Reason: Shitpost
I heard you man... as a collective we all bear some responsibility for where we are today. I voted, with my middle fingers. Did it help? I doubt it, but; did it even matter in the first place? I doubt it.
Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 17:35:Xeth Nyrrow wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 16:05:
Are you saying the battle of woke vs anti-woke is what killed this game more than anything? I agree that it's a polarizing force that ended up hurting more than helping but the bad core game play and bland design was the real cause imo. The over-the-top reactions by everyone I agree is a big issue, primarily because of social media's ubiquitous nature. It just amplifies everything and we see the impact immediately instead of days or weeks afterwards now.
I'm saying the reaction to the game was a primary cause in its demise. Optics and publicity are an important part of selling a product. Dustborn has a similar problem (and is also laden with gameplay complaints). Both it and Concord were not overly well received by both sides of the woke/anti-woke divide. One sides blows the DEI dogwhistle and the other side says it's pandering. Thus my previous statement of extreme reactionism and every side playing the vicitmhood card comes in to play.
You can recover from a bad launch. It's difficult as Hell but not impossible. No Man's Sky is a good example of this. So are most Bethesda games (Not you, Starfield. Sit down). What you cannot recover from is a bad look.
I want to be clear that I am all for inclusion and I think there plenty of examples we can use to illustrate where it was done well and naturally. For example, Suvi in Mass Effect: Andromeda was gay and Claire in Cyberpunk 2077 was trans. Those were neat bits of information about them as characters but it wasn't their whole personality. But when you make that one of the points of your game, you're not stepping on a landmine. You're jumping up and down on it with both feet as hard as you can. It's like the corporations that go balls deep on Pride Month. My LGBTQIA+ friends look at it with no small amount of derision because they know it's pandering to generate more revenue. Then you have the other side (MAGAts, "DEI IS TEH DEBIL" mouthbreathers, and so on) that go apeshit as well.
Regardless of their persuasion, no one likes having an ideology, any ideology, shoved in their face and that is exactly what happens when you make "representation" a selling point. Do it naturally and do it in a way that makes sense to the overall universe your entertainment is presenting. Then it becomes part of the universe.
Blue wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 11:26:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:23:Trying to combat what you perceive as an echo chamber can lead to what we have here. You are on a campaign to change people's minds on a topic that you'll have to admit you are intractable on yourself. The fact that you can say "Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people" when others are unable to "hammer" any facts home to you suggests you are not seeing the big picture.Blue wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:02:Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:10:It's a hill you're going to die on at this rate.
With that, he cast light on the hill I'm fighting on; the hill that there's more to "woke" complaints than what the 4chan fools rant about.
That's a witty oneliner Blue. Feel free to ban me, this is my last weekend here anyway, I've decided late last night. Hopefully though, you'll know that almost all of my comments where I'm "fighting on this hill" are reactionary. There's an echo chamber here, where dissent of the echo message is met with vitriol by a handful of patron overlords. Nobody have yet managed to quote or link to any thread or moment where my ideas were challenged. It's all ad hom attacks. Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people. Don't worry, I wonder why I give a shit, as well.
So now it's a crusade, and you're just fighting about the same topic with the same people. Regardless of original intent, that's pretty indistinguishable from a troll or other griefer, . It's growing quite tired, hence my "witty oneliner."