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Real Name SMA   
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Nickname Scottish Martial Arts
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Signed On Jun 16, 2002, 23:16
Total Comments 3063 (Veteran)
User ID 13410
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News Comments > Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth in October
17. Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth in October Jul 3, 2014, 18:53 Scottish Martial Arts
JediPunisher wrote on Jul 3, 2014, 17:24:
I've been waiting 15 years for a sequel to my favorite turn-based strategy game of all time, Alpha Centauri. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be waiting a while longer, because this isn't it. I hate hex grids, which restrict movement to six directions making the game less strategic... in other words, dumbing it down for the Nintendo generation while simplifying the AI programming. Could be worse, I guess... They could've returned to square tiles and limited our movement to four directions, rather than the original eight.

I'm sorry but that's retarded. In the world of tabletop wargames, which in many ways the Civ games are a loose homage to, hexes have been standard for pretty much forever, because they are superior to squares for turn-based combat games. Yes, you lose two possible move directions, and yes, hexes do not align with the cardinal directions, but what you gain is significant. Namely, the center of a hex is equidistant to the center of all adjacent hexes, where as with squares, the centers of diagonally adjacent squares are significantly further than orthogonally adjacent squares, which creates a "bunny hop" like effect: you can go farther moving diagonally than orthogonally, yet pay the same movement cost for both moves. Squares, through a flaw in their design, privilege certain movements over others, which encourages players not to make moves in accordance with the tactical scenario, but in accordance with metagaming the movement rules. Furthermore, only orthogonally adjacent squares share an edge, where as adjacent hexes all share an edge; this is critical in games in which facing, i.e. any turn-based combat game worth its salt, makes a difference to combat results. Hexes therefore facilitate more complex combat rules, where facing, flanks, supporting units, etc. can impact the outcome, in ways that squares can't.

In short, there's a reason why you'll be hard pressed to find a tabletop war game made in the last 50 years which uses squares.
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News Comments > Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth in October
10. Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth in October Jul 3, 2014, 16:14 Scottish Martial Arts
SpectralMeat wrote on Jul 3, 2014, 15:25:
Slashman wrote on Jul 3, 2014, 15:22:
SpectralMeat wrote on Jul 3, 2014, 15:08:
Slashman wrote on Jul 3, 2014, 15:03:
Did you turn off the advisers and encyclopedia??
I might

So you're a REAL man then! Salute
Well obviously not because I can't seem to get into the game. Maybe it is just not for me, but it does peak my interest so maybe I should try harder

Civ V is pretty user friendly as is. Was there something getting in the way of you understanding the mechanics, or was it simply a case where you understood the game but just didn't enjoy playing it that much?
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News Comments > Standalone DCS F-15C
12. Re: Standalone DCS F-15C Jun 30, 2014, 21:36 Scottish Martial Arts
Frags4Fun wrote on Jun 30, 2014, 19:57:
For you guys who've played it, do newbies have a ton to learn before we can enjoy the game/sim or can we jump right in in an easy/arcade mode to get our feet wet? Also, do I need a flight stick or can I pull it off with M/KB?

A flight stick is essential to enjoy the sim. You can control the game with mouse and keyboard, but not well or enjoyably.

Although the learning curve is not insurmountable or even at all bad, it does exist and this is not something where you can install, load up a dogfight quick mission and expect to shoot something down or even really know what's going on. Expect about 1-2 hours of watching the training videos and skimming the manual, plus another 1-2 hours of practice before you feel like you've got the hang of things. Note that "getting the hang of things" does not mean that you feel at all assured about your chances in combat, just that you know what's going on, and how to do things; becoming an ace fighter pilot will take quite a bit more work.
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News Comments > Standalone DCS F-15C
6. Re: Standalone DCS F-15C Jun 30, 2014, 13:47 Scottish Martial Arts
jdreyer wrote on Jun 30, 2014, 13:19:
What are the enemy planes in the vid? Are they just shooting down other F-15s? Or are those Mig 29s or Su-33s? Can't really tell.

I wish that DCS would focus on one time period and complete that before moving on to the next. Things are really all over the place with WW2, Korean, and modern aircraft.

This does look awesome, though. How does Flaming Cliffs 3 differ from their standard sims? The desc only says " The FC3 aircraft provide an easy learning curve for new players and focuses on a broad range of aircraft rather than a detailed single aircraft." What's missing, exactly? Like the 10 minute manual start up sequence or whatever? This is more of a get-in-your-plane-and-start-shooting-stuff kind of sim? Is the flight model still fairly realistic? I'd like something more realistic that HAWX, but maybe I don't need to go through the entire 10m startup sequence.

They looked like Su-27/33s although given their similarity in appearance, they could have been MiG-29s -- both the MiG and Sukhov design bureaus were working from the same body of research data and thus drew very similar design conclusions when designing their respective 4th-gen fighters.

The modern environment of US and Russian hardware is essentially done, at least in terms of AI objects. AFAIK, the only in service US aircraft that isn't in the game is the F-22A. Obviously only a handful of the various objects are player controllable, but in terms of implementing the military hardware as AI objects, the modern air/land environment is complete.

The goal of ED/TFC and their 3rd party partners is to eventually simulate all military hardware, at least at an AI level, from the WWII era to present, with attendant theater terrain maps, and the most popular/interesting/iconic aircraft as player controllable high-fidelity simulations. Obviously that's a nigh impossibly ambitious goal, so now that the modern era is basically done, TFC/ED's focus is on WWII, at least with regard to AI objects and terrain; TFC/ED's F/A-18C module is still in the works, along with the new terrain engine and the Nevada map, of course. Meanwhile, Belsimtek has already gotten their F-86 module to beta release state, hence its launch next month.

As for the difference between a Flaming Cliffs and full-DCS module, the former does not purport to provide an accurate model of the avionics -- which isn't to say the model is unrealistic, merely that it's not a one to one simulation of the real thing -- and has a non-interactive cockpit. The stand alone Flaming Cliffs modules have fully featured flight models that are as realistic as the full-DCS modules. The MiG-29 and Su-27/33, which are not yet available as stand alone modules, do not yet have advanced flight modules, but those will be implemented in the coming months.

Aircraft startup is generally a 5 or 6 keystroke process, but that does not mean controlling the aircraft is as simple as HAWX or something of that nature. To be honest, I actually find the fully simulated aircraft a bit easier to get the hang of because you manipulate the cockpit directly rather than memorizing a set of key/button commands. For example, the A-10C module fully implements the HOTAS functionality for designating a target, selecting a weapon, and delivering the weapon, where as the A-10A (Flaming Cliffs) module requires that you memorize a change weapons button, a designate target button, a weapons delivery mode button, etc. The difference is that the former uses a conceptually consistent model of avionics interaction where as the latter is simply a single key for a single function.

This comment was edited on Jun 30, 2014, 13:54.
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News Comments > Standalone DCS F-15C
2. Re: Standalone DCS F-15C Jun 30, 2014, 09:25 Scottish Martial Arts
It's not upcoming; the standalone module has been available since the most recent patch, which was released over a month ago. The trailer, however, is new.  
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News Comments > Evening Tech Bits
5. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jun 26, 2014, 09:22 Scottish Martial Arts
jdreyer wrote on Jun 25, 2014, 21:57:
As for Occupy Google, really? There are a lot of worse companies to protest out there. Google would be way, way down the list. Worried about killer robots? Go protest General Atomics whose Reaper and Predator drones have actually killed thousands of people. Google's Boston Dynamics' robots aren't even weaponized.

The killer drone complaint is retarded, but if you live in the Bay Area, the tech industry-drive hyper-gentrification is really rather concerning. I've lived in Mountain View, where Google is headquartered, for 20 years, and the rate of increase in high end development, evictions, and cost of living is unparalleled; the late nineties tech boom wasn't like this. Unless you make 6 figures, at least, you really can't afford to live here anymore, and consequently the character of most Bay Area communities is being remade into something else. Certainly, change is a constant and no community will retain its character in perpetuity, but the rapidity of the change is what's most concerning, particularly when you consider that tech's current day in the sun, just like in the late 90s, won't last forever.

One fifth of the land area in my home town, a town in which all the land was developed when my family moved here 20 years ago, is now part of the Google campus, as if it's some ever expanding Borg-like entity, cannibalizing the city in the process.
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News Comments > Morning Consolidation
7. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 23, 2014, 22:47 Scottish Martial Arts
Julio wrote on Jun 23, 2014, 15:36:
What's a 10 GB download (unless you're on bandwith restrictions). I recall when they had to mail me a floppy with the patched game on it.

If you're in the US, with third world broadband, it can potentially be a painfully long download, bandwidth cap or no. I live in the SF Bay Area, yet my particularly neighborhood only has access to slow DSL service. A 10GB patch means a 12 hour download for me. Multiply that by two if I want to throttle the download so I can actually use the internet while I'm waiting.
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News Comments > Pillars of Eternity Beta Nears
5. Re: Pillars of Eternity Beta Nears Jun 11, 2014, 21:58 Scottish Martial Arts
nin wrote on Jun 11, 2014, 21:44:
jimnms wrote on Jun 11, 2014, 21:33:
PoE's Beta is included at $110 tiers and up. Originally Divinity: Original Sin's Alpha access was going to be limited to the $135+ tiers, and they too sell early access on Steam. So what is your point?

What do you mean? He's not being positive?

I'm not sure Halsy has ever been positive, but he's been even less lately.
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News Comments > DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced
22. Re: DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced May 30, 2014, 20:08 Scottish Martial Arts
Task wrote on May 30, 2014, 19:51:
Wildone wrote on May 30, 2014, 19:15:
sensitive information about its capabilities they would not want the Russians especially to know about

Technically they should have plenty of information. Before the U.S. current government went balls to the wall imperialism stupid over Ukraine, Americans and Russians were jointly joining forces for mock "war games" in mock combats with their latest aircraft like the Mig-29 and F-35, or other types, so they could observe, the pilots could have some 'fun,' and share some info. They also sold aircraft to each other, the U.S. has some Su-27's and Russians have some F-14's and other stuff, etc.

The MiG-29 is a generation behind the F-35. The F-35 has not engaged in any US-Russian training exercises because its not operational yet. Both the Su-27 and F-14 are a generation behind the F-35. The Russians surely have a good general measure of what the F-35 can and cannot do, but unless they've been engaging in industrial and military espionage that puts the Chinese to shame, then they likely don't have access to all the engineering data, avionics data, and computer programming that's detail precisely what the F-35 is capable of.
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News Comments > DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced
20. Re: DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced May 30, 2014, 19:23 Scottish Martial Arts
DangerDog wrote on May 30, 2014, 18:59:
How did they get the details on the A-10? I mean they seemed to have everything about it, just look at the user guide for the sim. At this point they could probably just come up with stuff and probably not be that far from the real thing.

It was initially a "desktop simulation" contracted by the Air National Guard designed to give A-10A pilots practice on the new avionics of the A-10C. The commercial DCS A-10C supposedly has 95% commonality with the ANG version, except for the remaining 5% of avionics functions which are still classified and thus removed/altered for the commercial product. And as Wildone notes, the A-10 is over 40 years old now and much of the data on it is no longer classified. Furthermore, it's an avionics light plane since it doesn't have, and doesn't need, radar and all of its impedimenta -- the Warthog's avionics just aren't that sensitive from a military secrecy standpoint.
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News Comments > DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced
15. Re: DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced May 30, 2014, 18:38 Scottish Martial Arts
DangerDog wrote on May 30, 2014, 16:50:
They're Russian Devs, I doubt they would give a crap about it being classified. That would just make it even better since everything is so hush hush with the F35.

Even if we assume that they'd be willing to never leave Russia again, lest they get arrested for espionage while traveling, the more pressing issue would be actually getting the data necessary to make an accurate simulation. How would you make an accurate start up sequence if you don't know the details of what avionics are on board, and how they're configured and operated? How would you construct an accurate flight model without access to the engineering data? How would you create an accurate electrical, fuel, or hydraulic model without knowing how they're designed? How would you accurately model the capabilities of the radar if all you know about the radar is its name?

To make what you want would require nothing less than theft of a whole boatload of highly classified data. Not even a Russian game dev would go that far.
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News Comments > DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced
8. Re: DCS: F-86F Sabre Announced May 30, 2014, 16:41 Scottish Martial Arts
Quboid wrote on May 30, 2014, 16:02:
What do these include, apart from the aircraft? Is there a Korea map included, era-appropriate units to fight, things like that?

Right now the only terrain map is the Caucausus/Crimea/Black Sea region. They've been working on a new terrain engine for a few years now, which will support additional terrain maps, with a Nevada map and a WWII era Western Europe map currently announced. The Nevada map was supposed to come out a few years ago, but that was before they decided to scrap the work on it in favor of one which makes use of the new terrain engine. The WIP shots look pretty good, but who knows when it will be released.

With that in mind, it's highly unlikely that this module has a Korea terrain map. If it's like other Belsimtek modules it will include interactive training, and a full 15-20 mission campaign, plus a few single missions. Since this is a period aircraft, and given current announced plans, its likely that there will be some period AI objects to go with the module, like the MiG-15 mentioned in the feature list.

Finally, the P-51D module has been lacking in content for a while -- it's really a "fly a P-51!!!" module as opposed to a WWII module -- but there is a DCS WWII module under development from RRG Studios, formed from former IL-2 Sturmovik devs, and Eagle Dynamics has a FW-190 module nearing completion, so the WWII environment should get more interesting soon.
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News Comments > IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears
20. Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears May 28, 2014, 13:48 Scottish Martial Arts
descender wrote on May 28, 2014, 11:56:
All I said it is needed the matchmaking aspect of Warthunder... but your boner for flight sims seems to be entirely too large to have a coherent conversation about them. Yes, every one of the games has had a server browser in them. A completely empty and unused server browser because third party software fragments your community. Server browser != Matchmaking.

You accuse me of being incoherent yet you keep posting shit like this?

NO, 1st-gen Il-2 games didn't have server browsers in them -- just manual IP entry. For server browsing you did need a third party utility like Hyper Lobby, that thing we've spent the past few posts discussing. Here's the thing you don't seem to understand though: Il-2 Battle for Stalingrad, the game that's coming out later this year, NOT the game that came out in 2001, includes a fully featured server browser, as it should, obviating the need for any sort of third party utility and the community fragmentation that comes with it.

And I understand that peer to peer matchmaking is not the same thing as a server browser. The problem with matchmaking in the context of flight sims is that we're not talking about Call of Duty style multiplayer here. You don't hop on for a quick 10 minute match, where one game server is pretty much identical to the rest. Instead, you generally play for several hours -- 10 minutes is generally enough time to get airborne and up to altitude so that you can start hunting -- playing on specific servers, which foster specific kinds of communities, each offering specific kinds of content, perhaps with mod support. It's much more like the early days of Counter-Strike, where you would find specific servers that you would frequent because you liked the admins, regular players, and the maps and mods it would run.

If you just want a quick "Play Now" button, so that you can get in a 10 minute team death match, like CoD, then you aren't the target audience. No aspect of a flight sim is about instant gratification, and the way multiplayer sim servers are found reflects that: you don't want a "Play a Game" button, you want a list with details on players, mods, settings, etc. so you can find what you want.

Furthermore, Il-2 came out in 2001 and while an exemplary title, it is still part of a niche genre -- 90% of War Thunder players would have no interest in playing something like Il-2 or the forthcoming DCS WWII module. Given its age and its limited audience, why are you dismissing 500+ players at peak hours as insignificant? How many more people would really be playing an over 12 year old game even if Hyper Lobby were built in? Looking at player populations for games from 2001 which did include a server browser, I can assure you that we would not be seeing "ten times that number".
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News Comments > IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears
18. Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears May 28, 2014, 11:43 Scottish Martial Arts
descender wrote on May 28, 2014, 10:57:
No one called Warthunder a "sim". Jesus, is flight sim elitism worse than PC gamer elitism? Film at 11.

All I said is that the matchmaking makes playing it online infinitely easier and more likely for the average player to get into than any of the other IL2/BoP games. No one is interested in third party matchmaking software anymore. The convenience of having it built into the game would expand the online player base of these games from a few hundred to thousands. Hyperlobby currently has 69 players logged in (all playing IL-2 Sturmovik 1946). No one cares how accurate your flight model is if no one is playing the game.

Good thing that Battle of Stalingrad has its own server browsing software then! Your claim that IL-2 was never multiplayer focused was inaccurate, and dismissing a game released in 2014 because its 2001 predecessor required a third party utility was pretty retarded. Furthermore, presenting War Thunder as a competing model -- "If only Battle of Stalingrad was more like War Thunder, then more people would want to play it! -- implies that they are similar enough games that someone interested in War Thunder would want to play Battle of Stalingrad, which most wouldn't, if only it had a server browser, which it does.

And have you ever heard of peak hours? 8am PDT on a weekday is hardly when most people are playing a game. Simmers skew much older than average gamers, and at this time of day, all of them are at work or, in Europe, just starting to wrap things up for the day and not yet parked in front of their PC to play IL-2. Try the weekends, when there will be 500+ players on, 500+ players for a game released in 2001. Finally, the community is also starting to shift to Cliffs of Dover which with the Team Fusion mods has actually turned into a very compelling sim.
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News Comments > IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears
13. Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears May 27, 2014, 18:25 Scottish Martial Arts
descender wrote on May 27, 2014, 12:32:
I know that the features are there, but what percentage of the people that purchase these games do you think seek out these online sim groups? My first guess is less than 25%. They had a lobby system built in, but there was never really more than a few dozen people to play with in there. I think what they need(ed?) to do is to include a simple matchmaking mode (a la War Thunder) so that the majority of people that play the game can actually experience some online dogfighting (and therefore become instantly obsessed with it because... obviously). People would be much more apt to try something like that, than to seek out a group of "flying aces" to school them relentlessly.

IL-2 didn't include an in-game server browser because in 2001, when it was released, that was not a standard feature for simulators. HyperLobby support was there from the beginning however, and again, still supports a very active community. You do not need to join a the equivalent of a clan to find a game. You just download a 3rd party utility, and you can find active servers immediately. It's not hard. And frankly, with Gamespy shutting down in a few days, it will be a lot easier to find a game of IL-2 to join than it will be to find a game of Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Aliens versus Predator 2, Arcanum, or Civilization III, i.e. any of the other big releases of 2001.

As for War Thunder, that's a pretty inferior sim, aside from graphics of course, and the community's complete lack of understanding of fighter tactics makes it a trivial competitive environment for veteran simmers. In short, War Thunder is a different game for a different audience.
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News Comments > IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears
12. Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad in September; Beta Nears May 27, 2014, 18:18 Scottish Martial Arts
descender wrote on May 27, 2014, 11:15:
I thought all of these games have been severely lacking in the multiplayer department. I'd wager this game is going to be heavily single player focused as all the others were, so there should be no concerns about "missing DLC planes". You are usually limited in your plane selection by the mission at hand anyway.

I'd be more excited if IL2: Cliffs of Dover wasn't such a butcher job. I doubt this will be good enough to detract my attention from War Thunder. How many different games can recreate the same historical air battles? Snore

1) IL-2 Sturmovik had superb multiplayer and the focus of the series has ALWAYS been on the multiplayer environment. Despite the being over 12 years old, IL-2 STILL has a very active multiplayer community, and still is regarded as the best WWII multiplayer fighter sim among the simulation community. In short, you must be thinking of a different game.

2) The team that developed Cliffs of Dover is no longer in existence, but some it's principals have formed a new studio, RRG, and are developing a WWII module for DCS.

3) Battle of Stalingrad is being developed by 777 studios, the people behind the excellent Rise of Flight.
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News Comments > Op Ed
44. Re: Op Ed May 22, 2014, 18:34 Scottish Martial Arts
A lot of talking past each other in this thread. Here's my contribution to two ships passing in the night.

Because race is something you are born with and does not change, no one can really have the experience of seeing things through the eyes of a different race. Without the ability to compare and contrast in that way, it becomes easy to convince yourself that something like institutional racial bias isn't real: if you have no way to experience the alternative, it's hard to conceive that there even is an alternative. Even if you can envision such an alternative, the fact that our culture looks down upon unearned advantage provides a compelling emotional reason for, say, a straight, white, male to try to rationalize why being straight, white, and male accrues no advantage. To be honest, it's almost unfair to expect anything else: to accept that you may have advantages over others that you didn't earn requires well above average empathy -- we can't "try out" being another race; we can only look at another person's experience and imagine ourselves in it -- and it requires us to denigrate our own achievement. Both of those are hard things.

I don't want to get into too many personal details, but at age 24 I had something happen to me which caused society to stop viewing me as straight, white, healthy, American male. Had you asked me at age 23 what advantages being straight, white, etc. had gotten me, I would have been hard pressed to come up with any. I wouldn't have been the sort to say that minorities have an advantage over whites because of "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!" but I definitely would not have said that being straight, white, etc. gave me any special advantage. If you asked me why I got my job at the time, I would have said because I write a good resume, have strong interview skills, had demonstrated competence in the job I was applying for, and am generally a smart and effective employee. After life changed for me, I started seeing things differently because my experience of how people treated me, and the degree of competence they estimated me to have, changed so dramatically. I was still the same person -- I was still just as smart, with just as much education, with just as strong interpersonal skills, just as hard working, etc. -- but my outcomes in being able to find work, housing, etc. were very different. That isn't to say things became impossible, because my life is pretty good these days, and I'm proud of how far I've come, but it does mean I had some very hard years, came very close to giving up in despair on numerous occasions, and had age 24 played out differently, I surely would be much farther ahead in my career, finances, and family formation.

Someone made an analogy a couple months ago that the fixed aspects of the social role you are born into -- i.e. your race, sex, etc. -- are a lot like the difficulty level of a video game. No matter what difficulty level you're on, you can still lose the game, you still experience challenge and adversity, you can still have a bad go of it and get yourself in a position where you can't win and your don't have a save to revert to, etc. Likewise, even if you're on a really hard difficulty, in most games it's still possible to win -- it just takes a lot longer and requires a lot more persistence. Every so often there's a game with a difficulty that is just flat out impossible and no one can win at it. Now if we imagine that we merely click New Game and the game randomly assigns us a difficulty, never showing us a difficulty select screen, just like we never get to choose who are parents were and the circumstances we are born into, it would be easy to assume that there are no difficulty levels. It would take either restarting the game, which we can't do, or watching another player of the game REALLY closely, or getting access to the game's code and carefully studying it, for us to ever realize that there really are difficulty levels: we just don't get to pick them. And if you're a competitive player of the game, you may be inclined to ignore evidence that there are difficulty levels, because that would imply your success at the game is partly down to the random difficulty level you were assigned when clicking new game and not entirely to your personal skill.

This comment was edited on May 22, 2014, 18:40.
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News Comments > Morning Metaverse
14. Re: Morning Metaverse May 1, 2014, 16:30 Scottish Martial Arts
The Open Internet rules will be tough, enforceable, and, with the concurrence of my colleagues, in place with dispatch."

Is that even English?

The last phrase is a bit of an archaism, essentially meaning ASAP, but yes it is English.
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News Comments > Women In Video Games Initiative
41. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 30, 2014, 01:14 Scottish Martial Arts
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 20:07:
Your argument is that if the numbers aren't exactly equal... then racism (or sexism, or insert-ism-here). That's the least intellectual argument in the history of arguments.

Not equal, proportional.

Do you agree that talent in computing is independent of gender and race? Yes or no? If yes, why wouldn't we want to ensure roughly proportional representation in the field, since non-proportionate representation would imply that some talent is going to waste? If no, if talent is dependent on gender and race, how is that not sexist and racist?

And remember: I already acknowledged that it COULD be true that white and Asian men are just naturally and innately more talented at computer science and programming -- I don't believe that, but it is possible. But if that is the case, if the reason computing is mad up mostly of white and Asian men is that those groups are just better at it than other groups, then those that believe that need to be honest and argue that racism and sexism shouldn't be demonized because some races are just better than others at certain things, and that we shouldn't try to get proportional representation in all fields.

Look, hard as this may be for you to believe, I'm not trying to demonize you; I'm trying to get you to be honest and say what you actually mean. You're adamantly against trying to achieve proportional representation, and your stated reason is that it lowers standards. But the only way I can see it lowering standards -- and you haven't offered an alternative here -- is if the underrepresented groups, i.e. women, blacks, and Hispanics, are innately less talented. The implied premise of your argument then is inherently racist and sexist, but when presented with that, rather than offering an alternative premise for the conclusion that proportional representation will lower standards, you whine about being demonized as sexist or racist. If it's that upsetting to you, then don't make implicitly racist and sexist arguments, and instead present your actual premises, which you claim to be unblemished by prejudicial thinking.

edit: As an aside, I do think it is possible to argue that, in some areas, talent is dependent, to an extent, on gender, and possibly race as well. For example, there is a reason we don't see women players in the NFL: the female body, even an outlier female body, simply isn't going to be competitive in that level of play of that sport. Likewise, you don't see many Asian men in the NFL, probably for a variety of reasons, but partly because it's pretty rare that men of Asian descent are built like, well, NFL players. So athletics is an area where I believe it is legitimate to make the argument that talent is dependent, to a certain extent, on race and gender, and thus proportional racial and gender representation would imply a lowering of standards. Are you willing to make that same argument with regard to computing? Or are you going to continue to state the same conclusion, while keeping your premises hidden?

This comment was edited on Mar 30, 2014, 01:22.
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News Comments > Women In Video Games Initiative
36. Re: Women In Video Games Initiative Mar 29, 2014, 19:52 Scottish Martial Arts
Red wrote on Mar 29, 2014, 18:10:
Eirikrautha wrote on Mar 28, 2014, 23:15:
I feel bad for you. Well not really, because you're just a faceless being on the internet. But if I did have the power of empathy, I would empathize. All this hate. Your stance is the sole voice of reason and intelligence in this thread. Everyone else is trapped in a world of small mindedness, unable to fathom that you cannot overcome stereotypes by promoting stereotypes. You're not alone. But very few people are so enlightened.

Look it's pretty simple:

A meritocracy is a system in which people's social status, economic standing, and, in some cases, political power is determined by their individual talent and willingness to apply it. IF a system is meritocratic AND certain groups of people are persistently underrepresented in the higher socioeconomic and professional tiers THEN one of two conditions must obtain: either certain groups have less innate talent -- an idea which could be true but by definition would be sexist and racist -- OR the system isn't actually meritocratic.

Or, perhaps one could say it's cultural. It's not that women are inherently inferior at the skills associated with programming and thus only a handful are competent to do the job, one could argue, it's that our culture teaches women not to pursue this profession, and teaches men not to accept them in it. If we want more people to live up to their talents and flourish, wouldn't it make sense to try to influence the culture in another direction? Wouldn't then we want to find ways to recruit more women into the programming profession, so that people can see that women are just as capable of succeeding, and thus no talented girl who could become an excellent programmer ever says to herself "computer programming? But that's only something boys do!"?

This comment was edited on Mar 29, 2014, 20:02.
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