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| [August 28, 2008, 02:24 am ET] - Share - Viewing Comments |
Edge
Online has some quotes from Harald Seeley taken from an upcoming interview
with the Engine Business Manager at Crytek about controversial remarks by Crytek
CEO Cevat Yerli about the dire impact of PC piracy on sales of Crysis
( story). Harald concedes that not everyone who pirated their
first-person shooter would have bought it, but he thinks there is an argument to
be made that those still playing the game and downloading patches (they
apparently still have more active users than unit sales) could be considered
lost customers: "I think we can safely say if they were still playing the game
by the time our latest patch released, and if they were playing on a pirated
copy, then they were a sale that didn’t happen but probably would have had it
not been possible to obtain the game illegally." He also makes observations
about DRM, saying: "For example, the consoles themselves are, in one sense,
simply very good DRM technologies that consumers welcome and pay for, in order
to receive the benefits that come with them…"
273 Replies. 14 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 273. |
Re: BS. |
Sep 2, 2008, 15:13 |
xXBatmanXx |
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I donate plenty of money to charity, I occasionally pay for donation-supported freeware, and I pay for games and music for the privilege of experiencing it. Was I always this way? No. In college I downloaded games and music as it never even occurred to me that there was an obvious problem with this. As I matured and thought about the issue, it became quite clear that what I was doing was immoral, so I stopped doing it, and purchased the games and music I downloaded.
As for human nature, well, I can't even read this thread without thinking pessimistically about human nature, much less looking at the world around me. It comes down to this: if human nature were so noble, we wouldn't need law or government to set boundaries on behavior. Since we do, then human nature is self-evidently not "good" enough that I should be optimistic about everyone's, or even most people's intentions. Lastly, I make the statement that most people will take things for free rather than pay for it based on my observations of those I know. This is self-evident, and I defy you to assert the opposite. Don't delude yourself. Just look at the posts in this thread if you believe otherwise. +1 for one of the best posts on BN in a while.
(being anon allows a lot of the asshatery that goes on via the internets.)
The cause of all these evils was the lust for power arising from greed and ambition; and from these passions proceeded the violence of parties once engaged in contention.
This message was edited at Sep 2, 15:14. |
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1, 2 ready set! Gimme Gimme AquaNet! |
| 272. |
Pricey |
Sep 2, 2008, 12:02 |
Tumbler |
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You bought your music up front, and then you are effectively downloading a duplicate. I can find no logical difference between this and making a backup copy of your discs for safekeeping. So I can go buy a game I want, then I can download it on the internet because it's like making a backup copy? This works for me. If I don't like the game after I download it then I can delete it and return the unopened box. Right?
The problem still remains that there is no way to confirm someone owns the software,song,movie or not so downloading it from any site other than the "official" sites is going to be considered piracy. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Unauthorized downloading on the internet is either piracy for everyone, or piracy for no one.
The core issue here is why are people not buying games, crysis in particular:
1. Piracy - People can get it for free so why pay?
2. Cost - Too expensive/Bad Value per dollar spent.
3. DRM - Software becoming too restrictive/Intrusive.
4. Quality/Reliability - Bugs, crashs, problems in gen.
5. Support - Company's don't finish what they started.
6. Computer Hardware - PC simply not up to speed.
My personal feelings on Crysis are that it was a game ahead of it's time. My PC played the demo ok, but with everything turned down the game looked almost exactly like Far Cry and I didn't like the game enough to upgrade my PC. Company of heroes was another game I felt was ahead of it's time, it was a great game but I had a PC that just couldn't do it justice. I didn't get into the game until the expansion pack arrived.
Planning on future hardware for PC games right now is a risky bet. I think Crysis Warhead is going to do much better than crysis if only because people have slightly better computers today and it costs less.
I think DoW2 is going to do a lot better than CoH because people have stronger hardware today than they did when CoH came out. (This was a game people mentioned as being heavily pirated)
And it should be noted that DRM has ever been on the list of why people choose not to buy software until recently. Putting the disc in the drive was typically the only thing paying customers had to deal with. I don't recall product codes being an issue, they only became necessary when online gaming really took off and it seems reasonable to have something to identify legit copies online.
I have no problem with companies going after pirates, I don't pirate games so go crazy, do whatever you like to annoy them. But what you're doing is annoying and affecting me, your paying customer, and I've passed on plenty of games because of this.
If you choose to keep going on this path and make games so restrictive that we'll essentially get permission to play a game on a system similar to how we do with XBLA or on steam then I'd expect to see your prices cut substantially because you're taking value of your product away from me.
$50 for a game was acceptable when I figured I could sell it later for $30-40 if I didn't like it. If you take that away and don't drop the price I wish you luck with finding customers because I won't be yours anymore.
This message was edited at Sep 2, 12:03. |
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Ironclad FANBOI! & Stardock too! |
| 271. |
Re: ... |
Sep 1, 2008, 21:12 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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Copyright originates from Britain and the US was one of the last countries to recognise the Berne Convention, so I don't know where you get this idea that the world revolves around the US. Not that it matters as your point was whether I'd read the Constitution, which would be a no because I don't live in America. Worm around all you want but you'll only look more of an idiot that you've already managed. Yeah, maybe you should consider things that have happened within the last century. The US has been the driving force behind the copyright treaties for the last few decades, and are currently using WIPO to get everyone else into line. The UK has been going right along with everything the US asks for, as have most other countries.
My point wasn't about whether you'd read the Constitution, but that the US Constitution is what defines the purpose of copyright law in the US, and that the US guides copyright law for the world. No other country has a greater IP interest in extending and expanding copyrights.
This message was edited at Sep 2, 10:05. |
| 270. |
... |
Sep 1, 2008, 15:52 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Then you're either from someplace that takes their copyright cues from the US, or someplace that doesn't really care about copyright. Copyright originates from Britain and the US was one of the last countries to recognise the Berne Convention, so I don't know where you get this idea that the world revolves around the US. Not that it matters as your point was whether I'd read the Constitution, which would be a no because I don't live in America. Worm around all you want but you'll only look more of an idiot that you've already managed.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies."  |
| 269. |
Re: ... |
Sep 1, 2008, 12:39 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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No, but then did you actually consider I could be part of the 95% of the world's population that does not live in the US? Fail. Then you're either from someplace that takes their copyright cues from the US, or someplace that doesn't really care about copyright. Which is it?
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| 268. |
... |
Sep 1, 2008, 06:15 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Have you actually read the Constitution? You know, the thing that gives Congress the power to create copyright laws? No, but then did you actually consider I could be part of the 95% of the world's population that does not live in the US? Fail.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies." |
| 267. |
Re: ... |
Sep 1, 2008, 03:31 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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Nonsense. It exists to further capitalism, which rewards content producers with financial gain. It's not like capitalism is a crime either. Have you actually read the Constitution? You know, the thing that gives Congress the power to create copyright laws? It happens to give a reason for it. It's not to reward creators either.
This message was edited at Sep 1, 03:31. |
| 265. |
Re: ... |
Aug 31, 2008, 18:08 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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Copyright laws exist to reward content producers. I really wish people would quit saying this. That's not why copyright law exists. It exists to ensure that the public domain is continually supplied with new works. Giving creators a "limited" monopoly on the work is merely the mechanism. A means to the desired end.
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| 264. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 31, 2008, 12:13 |
Prez |
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Ataneruo:
I can't assert the opposite, as much as I wish I could - I recognize the ugliness inherent to human nature. Having said that, I am one to take people at their word, having no evidence to the contrary. Is my trust betrayed? I'm sure it is regularly, but that is between the person doing it and their conscience.
And it is quite possible that the pirates here on Blues will have the same epiphany you did, so I avoid judging them too harshly, especially given the transgressions of my own misspent youth.:)
This message was edited at Aug 31, 12:14. |
| 263. |
... |
Aug 31, 2008, 10:08 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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yes, but ALL car dealers will let you test drive cars. not all games come with demos. very very few come with demos these days. All, hey? So you're saying I could test-drive a Rolls Royce? Please. Also, even if they don't produce a demo that is no excuse to pirate a game - that is simply a lame cop-out. If a publisher doesn't produce a demo then don't buy the game but don't steal it and pretend you're doing them a favour.
how fucking stupid are you? Ermm.... okay?
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies." |
| 262. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 31, 2008, 06:45 |
Ataneruo |
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The difference between you and the rest of the posters here, Prez, is that you are not trying to have your cake and eat it too. You bought your music up front, and then you are effectively downloading a duplicate. I can find no logical difference between this and making a backup copy of your discs for safekeeping. All the others defending piracy in this thread are pretty clear about using products for free without up-front payment and feeling that it is their prerogative to pay if and how much they want to. Logically and morally different. Illegal? Possibly, but I'm not certain.
What I am certain about is that if a particular dealer says that you can't test-drive their car before buying but must buy their car upfront, then you are free to go to another dealer, or get along without a car. Nowhere do you have the prerogative of saying f*** you, I'm taking the car and I'll pay for it if I deem it worthy.
I donate plenty of money to charity, I occasionally pay for donation-supported freeware, and I pay for games and music for the privilege of experiencing it. Was I always this way? No. In college I downloaded games and music as it never even occurred to me that there was an obvious problem with this. As I matured and thought about the issue, it became quite clear that what I was doing was immoral, so I stopped doing it, and purchased the games and music I downloaded.
As for human nature, well, I can't even read this thread without thinking pessimistically about human nature, much less looking at the world around me. It comes down to this: if human nature were so noble, we wouldn't need law or government to set boundaries on behavior. Since we do, then human nature is self-evidently not "good" enough that I should be optimistic about everyone's, or even most people's intentions. Lastly, I make the statement that most people will take things for free rather than pay for it based on my observations of those I know. This is self-evident, and I defy you to assert the opposite. Don't delude yourself. Just look at the posts in this thread if you believe otherwise. |
| 261. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 31, 2008, 04:31 |
Prez |
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This discussion would go better if the personal insults were stopped. The good points people are making on both sides are being drowned out by hostility.
Most Blues stories on piracy illicit many an eye-roll because they guarantee a long, drawn out battle of words between people with uncompromising stances.
On the legal side, I am pretty sure that most everyone agrees that downloading a game for any reason is illegal under current copyright law. Okay, case closed. If your whole point is based on the legality side of copyright, then I'd say that you're point is well-taken and you should move along. The ethical and moral aspect of the discussion is what is driving the thread towards the 300 post mark.
In that regard, no matter what side of the argument you fall on, you should try to understand that morals and ethics aren't exactly the same for everyone. Virtually all of the admitted pirates on this site pay for games at some point (this is me taking people at their word). This says to me that they aren't strictly the kind of person that the word 'pirate' alludes to; that is, someone who downloads a game simply because they are too cheap to buy it, or one of those knuckleheads who cries out "Information wants to be free!!!". The gray area, and the point of contention here, is not the legality of their methods but when and how (and even if) a developer should be fairly compensated for the use of their product.
I myself, much like other admitted "pirates", adhere much more to the basic principle of fair use. Honestly, I couldn't care less about what copyright law states I should do- laws don't hold much weight with me in and of themselves simply because many of the worst acts committed by people are done with the power of law behind them. There are some things I feel comfortable doing that others don't. There are some things that others here feel comfortable doing that I don't. That disparity alone doesn't mean I can declare myself the final arbiter of morality as it seems some of you might wish to do of yourselves. I use a personal example illustrating my point that happens to pertain to the music industry, but can be just as relevant to software. I would not download an artist's music track simply because I wanted to have it and was too cheap to pay. But I would and in fact have downloaded mp3's for albums I own on Vinyl Records (remember those?) but not on CD. As I understand copyright law, this is strictly prohibited and illegal. Fine. But that to me is completely and utterly irrelevant. Speeding is illegal, and I bet we all do it regularly. Why? For different reasons. Personal reasons. I'm sure very few of them are because we're bad people with no regard for other peoples' safety. The real question, and my personal guiding light, is what I am doing unethical? Is it immoral? Is it unfair to the artists who created the works? In my stated case, it isn't. As far as I'm concerned. You may (and probably do) feel differently. I feel that I have justly compensated the artists for the enjoyment I have received by buying the original LP's, so if I want to download and burn them to CD, I feel no guilt or reservation in doing so. Some of you, on the other hand, just read that and are disgusted by how blatantly and nonchalantly I admit to "theft". Your version; your morality. Not mine.
I have stated in other threads that I downloaded Crysis before buying it because I wanted to see if it would run on my machine, and if so, how well. The same with Supreme Commander. Even if the games in question have them, I no longer trust demos - I have had 2 separate instances where a demo would install fine but the final gold master copy on disc would not. Regardless of the legality of it, the end result is that the developers of both titles were justly compensated - I bought both games once their adequate performance was assured.
I therefore qualify as a "pirate" under the strict, legal application of the term, but I really don't consider what I do to be at all unethical. If you don't agree, I respect that.
This message was edited at Aug 31, 06:06. |
| 260. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 31, 2008, 02:08 |
manic half |
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50% isn't exactly a reliable number. Much better to have a source that I trust 100% of the time, such as myself. Given the ability to judge games for myself, what logical reason would I have to bother with any other source? that.
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| 259. |
Re: ... |
Aug 31, 2008, 02:07 |
manic half |
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All I hear from you about piracy is that you should be able to try products before you buy them, which is bullshit. Demos exist to test games - you can argue that they may not represent the game accurately but then neither does a 200 mile test drive in a new car and no car manufacturer is going to offer you a 20,000 mile demonstration. yes, but ALL car dealers will let you test drive cars. not all games come with demos. very very few come with demos these days.
what if the car dealer said 'oh no, you cant test drive it. you cant even sit in it. just look at it and decide from that'.
how fucking stupid are you?
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| 258. |
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Aug 31, 2008, 01:46 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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If the government passed a law requiring that you sleep on the floor, would that make it right? No, it'd be stupid and not worth following, kinda like copyright laws. Copyright laws exist to reward content producers. Compensating someone for their work is very different to a pointless law requiring you to sleep on the floor and you know it.
All I hear from you about piracy is that you should be able to try products before you buy them, which is bullshit. Demos exist to test games - you can argue that they may not represent the game accurately but then neither does a 200 mile test drive in a new car and no car manufacturer is going to offer you a 20,000 mile demonstration. If you're not sure whether a game is worth it then don't buy it but don't make up bullshit about you pirating games to see if they're worth the money. Stop worming about to justify your stealing - just accept that you're a thief and be done with it. Don't pretend that you're on a moral crusade - you a cheapskate, pure and simple.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies." |
| 257. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 30, 2008, 23:41 |
Jerykk |
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And most of everybody wouldn't buy it, and there would be major profit loss. That's an assumption. Looking at the reality of the situation, movies, games and music are essentially free right now. Anyone with a modicum of technical savvy can obtain all those things with ease. The question is, why don't they? Why do people still buy movies and music? Your view of humanity is rather pessimistic. You expect the worst out of people and believe the only way they will do anything good or honest is if they have no other choice. While I believe there are people like that, I also believe there are many who aren't.
Remember, most people pirate because they don't want to pay for something they can get for free, not because they want to find out whether or not they want to pay for it. And you know this... how? Do you have an intricate understanding of every mind in existence? Or do you simply assume that everyone is a thieving scumbag unless the law prevents them from being so? I find this somewhat ironic from someone who is constantly preaching morality. In fact, I think you should ask yourself this: If you could obtain something for free (legally) but also buy it, would you ever buy it? If your answer is no, I think the problem isn't with piracy but with you.
Anyways, you really need to stop thinking of a game like buying a car and more like watching a movie. You pay for the privilege of using it, not according to how much you like it and what its inherent worth is to you. I do think of it like watching a movie. I watch movies before I buy them. On very rare occasions, I'll first see a movie in a theater but in those cases, I'm largely paying for the huge screen and bigass surround sound speakers. Paying for the "privilege" of anything is dumb. I'm sorry but playing a crappy, disappointing game isn't exactly a privilege. I pay for the quality of the experience, not for the privilege of experiencing it.
Are you trying to say that in all your years of trolling the internet, you have never come across a source of reviews that you don't trust more than 50% of the time? 50% isn't exactly a reliable number. Much better to have a source that I trust 100% of the time, such as myself. Given the ability to judge games for myself, what logical reason would I have to bother with any other source?
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| 256. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 30, 2008, 21:17 |
Ataneruo |
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That's the whole point behind piracy. If everybody pirated stuff before they bought it, they'd know exactly what they were getting and how much it was worth to them.
And most of everybody wouldn't buy it, and there would be major profit loss. That's the whole point behind piracy being immoral and therefore illegal--you are using a product without paying for it and therefore denying the provider their right to their asking price upfront. Remember, most people pirate because they don't want to pay for something they can get for free, not because they want to find out whether or not they want to pay for it. This is pretty obvious but I will continue to repeat it as long as people refuse to acknowledge it, which apparently in your case Jerykk will be forever.
Anyways, you really need to stop thinking of a game like buying a car and more like watching a movie. You pay for the privilege of using it, not according to how much you like it and what its inherent worth is to you. That part is irrelevant, and any human with a brain can do a fairly reasonable job of figuring that out before purchasing, dubious reviews be damned. I have never gone to see a movie based on a single review or recommendation. Are you trying to say that in all your years of trolling the internet, you have never come across a source of reviews that you don't trust more than 50% of the time? Do you not have any friends who play games? Seriously.
This message was edited at Aug 30, 21:26. |
| 255. |
Re: No subject |
Aug 30, 2008, 20:09 |
Jerykk |
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I cannot take someone seriously who abates piracy as anything but the theft of intellectual property. When have I said piracy is anything other than copyright infringement? I agree that it is completely illegal. The thing is, I don't equate legality with morality. I find copyright laws to be "wrong" and as such, I have no qualms with not obeying them. If the government passed a law requiring that you sleep on the floor, would that make it right? No, it'd be stupid and not worth following, kinda like copyright laws.
As you've mentioned, reforming copyright laws to be more balanced between IP owner and consumer is tricky business. However, until that happens, I'll continue to use piracy as a means to an end.
As many before me have said, if these "subpar products" are so bad there is no need to download them then. How do you know if something is subpar without trying it first? Entertainment isn't objective. It's completely subjective. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Halo and Gears of War got great reviews but I thought those games were crap. Had I bought instead of pirated them, I'd have gotten screwed over.
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| 254. |
Re: BS. |
Aug 30, 2008, 20:01 |
Jerykk |
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The fact that they have a lot more money than you and can afford to hire more lawyers than you is more an issue with the legal system than it is with the idea of IP. What? Did you miss the whole part where copyright laws are clearly written in favor of the IP owner at the expense of the customer? This has nothing to do with how much money I have.
If you want to do something about this, then go ahead and enlighten people about what a quality game is and how they should not support a company that produces poor quality products, rather than encouraging them to steal from the company. That's the whole point behind piracy. If everybody pirated stuff before they bought it, they'd know exactly what they were getting and how much it was worth to them. Dubious reviews, misrepresentative or nonexistent demos, hype, brands, etc, all become completely irrelevant as every game is judged on its individual merits. As a result, good games sell well, bad games don't and the world becomes a better place.
The only problem is that my idea requires an honor system where people buy games after they've proven worthy. Unfortunately, there are some who would never do so. But that isn't a problem with piracy. It's a problem with people.
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