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| [April 10, 2008, 08:31 am ET] - Share - Viewing Comments |
NCsoft announces they are not being soft on those running unauthorized servers
for their games, naming names in describing the actions they are taking:
Thursday 10th April/... BRIGHTON, England – NCsoft®, the world-leading,
publisher of massively multiplayer online games such as Guild Wars®, Lineage® II
and City of Heroes®, today announced that it was stepping up its fight against
the growing menace of intellectual property theft. This action comes as a direct
response to the rise of illegal online game servers throughout Eastern Europe,
particularly in Greece and Russia where NCsoft’s fantasy-based online role
playing game, Lineage II, is extremely popular.
The fraudulent servers in question are being used by players playing at home and
in internet cafes, but such unauthorised servers often feature – or require
users to download – illegally modified and potentially harmful game data,
thereby changing the intended online experience.
NCsoft’s European office has identified several prominent illegal servers across
Europe and is in the process of taking action against individuals and
corporations deemed to be in breach of international copyright laws. In a
lawsuit that was commenced last year in Greece, NCsoft successfully obtained a
court order against Internet Cafe business, ‘e-GLOBAL’ following which four of
its cafes were raided and illegal software was seized. This led to the shutting
down of illegal servers on which pirate copies of Lineage II software was
loaded. Georgios Katostaris – Chairman of the Board and Managing Director,
Constantinos Zygouras – Vice-Chairman of the Board and Managing Director,
Athanassios Dobros – Deputy Managing Director and Dimitrios Koutsoukos –
Administrator of the company under the name ‘INTERNET DYNAMICS LLC’ have all
been made personal defendants to the proceedings that are continuing in the
Greek Courts in which NCsoft is seeking damages as well as criminal remedies.
“Illegal game servers, such as those operating from e-GLOBAL, have a hugely
negative impact on both NCsoft Europe and its customers,” commented Max Brown,
NCsoft Europe’s Sales & Operations Director. “They seriously affect the player’s
experience of our products and rob the company of potential revenue that is used
to further enhance the player experience on official servers. NCsoft’s loss in
revenue from e-GLOBAL’s operation is estimated in excess of six million Euros.
We are defiant in our resolve to stamp out theft of NCsoft’s intellectual
properties and are prepared to take the strongest measures to do so.”
NCsoft has a proven track record in combating illegal servers, having worked
with the FBI in November 2006 to shut down a substantial unofficial Lineage II
server run by US-based website, L2Extreme.com. Following multiple raids across
cities throughout the US, L2Extreme’s fraudulent servers – which claimed to
support 50,000 active users – were taken offline, as was the L2Extreme.com
website.
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| 63. |
Re: ... |
Apr 16, 2008, 18:35 |
Kash |
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That was meant to show that if other individuals/companies could afford to run those servers for free, then it can't really be that demanding for the company itself to do so. There is a huge difference between the costs in both hardware and bandwidth necessary to run a userhack server supporting max 100 players and an actual server that can support 5000+.
Not to mention that I doubt the userhack servers have operators monitoring them 24/7, customer support staff, etc etc.
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| 62. |
Re: NCsoft Servers |
Apr 15, 2008, 13:31 |
Warskull |
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Are the "illegal" servers running on stolen software? I assume NCsoft never released or sold in any way shape or form it's server software to run this game so I think using that software is clearly illegal.
If the companies/groups/persons built their own servers from scratch, which I highly doubt, and didn't charge any money, just offered it as a service that people who legally purchased the game off store shelves can use....I don't see anything wrong with that. (But I'm guessing the copies of the client side software are illegal as well...)
I can't imagine they could have built the server software themselves but if they did NCsoft needs to just suck it up and live with it.
If not NCsoft has every right to go after people using their software. Especially if they are charging a fee for using it which I'm guessing internet cafe's do. I don't remember all the details, but there was a big fiasco with the source code from Lineage being stolen and sold. It was apparently done by ex-employees. I think the Lineage II server code was among that which was stolen. So it is more than plausible that these servers are actually using stolen code.
This message was edited at Apr 15, 13:32. |
| 61. |
so where's this free money? |
Apr 13, 2008, 18:29 |
Kosumo |
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I may be getting this wrong, but we are trying to find out who in this thread is a Scientologist right?
I'm going for the out of here pick of nin, althought he may or may not have posted in it!!! 
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| 60. |
Re: ... |
Apr 13, 2008, 17:31 |
Prez |
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Whoa there partner. I don't think anyone owes me anything, and I'm not trying to be arrogant. I fully expect anyone who plays the game to pay for it. I am just talking about how they use it after the sale.
I'm not seeing the "illegality" of using your own server to play a game, that's all. Is developing a server on which you can run any MMO on any different from modding the game in any other fashion? You are changing the original code in either case, but there has never been a case that I know of where modding a game has been declared illegal simply because it alters the intellectual property of the publisher or developer.
I'm just making this point because people are expected to bow down to copyright law without question, whether it is fair and reasonable or otherwise. |
| 59. |
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Apr 13, 2008, 17:08 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Other than persistence, is it any different than starting up a dedicated server of your own for BF2 or TF2? Yes. With those games they give you the software to run those servers - with this they reverse engineer copyrighted material to produce it. The whole point is that these games are created as a service, not as a standalone game. Sure I'd love to play MMORPGs if I didn't have to pay monthly but that completely undermines the point of the game and the developers producing it. The example I gave earlier was completely appropriate - someone develops a coffee, then someone else reverse engineers it and gives it away for free... although the original developer isn't paying for the making of the coffee they are still losing the profit they would have made from people buying it from them.
It seems people here think that everyone else owes them something and it's rather arrogant. Anyway, I'm done arguing this. There is clearly an ideological difference here that cannot be settled. Bye.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies."  |
| 58. |
Re: ... |
Apr 13, 2008, 15:19 |
Prez |
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Upfront admission: I'm a simpleton. But anyway, I figured I'd give my perspective.
EULA's are basically non-binding agreements if court rulings pertaining to them are any indication. As such, I honestly don't see the problem with someone setting up a closed server, completely separate from the publisher's paid servers, and letting people connect to it. Other than persistence, is it any different than starting up a dedicated server of your own for BF2 or TF2? I just don't see any difference. If you want to play on the developers' servers, and partake in all the benefits involved in doing so, then fine; pay the monthly fee. If you want to forgo such benefits and play on an unofficial server that someone else is paying for, then have at it. I simply don't see the problem here.
I might even consider buying and playing a MMO game if this was more prevalent - I loathe monthly fees, and I refuse to play a game that can end any time the developer/publisher goes under or just quits supporting it, leaving me with a $50 coaster. |
| 57. |
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Apr 13, 2008, 14:39 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Well it's finally nice to see you admitting your point is completely subjective. My point is not completely subjective - the value of something in a capitalist society is.
Regardless of your backpedalling here, you very clearly stated that they don't sell the game - which is demonstrably false. Whether there is a monthly charge or not is irrelevant to the issue of the game itself needing to be paid for. You buy the first months service, which includes the install media.
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that the whole issue of this discussion is whether reverse engineering IS illegal everywhere? Yes, there is a single case where it's been deemed illegal in the US. But the US is not the whole world. And one case, while setting a precident, isn't conclusive. Copyright applies, which prevents the reproduction of a work with the exception of fair use. Copyright is VERY well established internationally. Reverse engineering the server software is clearly not "fair use".
Hard to hear anything else when you've got your fingers in your ears and you're humming loudly. That's true, but has nothing to do with this discussion.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies." |
| 56. |
Re: ... |
Apr 13, 2008, 10:13 |
Bhruic |
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Whether it is in gamers interests or not is completely subjective. My opinion is that EA Sport games exploit users, hence I don't buy them. I also don't buy MMORPGs because I don't feel they offer value for money. However, if I was to play them then I would pay for them. Well it's finally nice to see you admitting your point is completely subjective.
Which you have to pay monthly to use. Otherwise you CANNOT use it. Regardless of your backpedalling here, you very clearly stated that they don't sell the game - which is demonstrably false. Whether there is a monthly charge or not is irrelevant to the issue of the game itself needing to be paid for.
Nope. That's merely what you've interpreted to justify your point. The service is access to the game, which includes servers, updates, content and customer support. Not in the slightest. You can't get any updates or content if you don't connect to their servers. And "customer support" is a requirement for any game that is published.
There is no official third party software to run servers - it is reversed engineered, which is illegal. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that the whole issue of this discussion is whether reverse engineering IS illegal everywhere? Yes, there is a single case where it's been deemed illegal in the US. But the US is not the whole world. And one case, while setting a precident, isn't conclusive.
Again, all I hear is excuse after excuse to justify stealing and depriving a company of money they SHOULD be paid Hard to hear anything else when you've got your fingers in your ears and you're humming loudly.
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| 55. |
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Apr 12, 2008, 23:37 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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It's funny because I'm giving an example of something not in the interest of gamers, just capitalism. And yet you are arguing against it. It just illustrates a completely inconsistent world-view on your point. Whether it is in gamers interests or not is completely subjective. My opinion is that EA Sport games exploit users, hence I don't buy them. I also don't buy MMORPGs because I don't feel they offer value for money. However, if I was to play them then I would pay for them.
First off, they are selling the game, at least, in most cases. Which you have to pay monthly to use. Otherwise you CANNOT use it.
Second, the "service" they are selling is the servers. Nope. That's merely what you've interpreted to justify your point. The service is access to the game, which includes servers, updates, content and customer support. Nowhere is it suggested that every penny of subscribers goes to server upkeep - if you look at the revenue generated by WOW it's obvious that that isn't the case. That's more bullshit made up by you to justify stealing.
And finally, you've yet to show anything beyond the EULA that says consumers aren't allowed to play on 3rd party servers, and it's been pointed out to you repeatedly that EULAs aren't binding contracts. There is no official third party software to run servers - it is reversed engineered, which is illegal. That's not just based upon the EULA but general copyright law.
Again, all I hear is excuse after excuse to justify stealing and depriving a company of money they SHOULD be paid. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T PLAY IT.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies." |
| 54. |
Re: ... |
Apr 12, 2008, 18:50 |
Bhruic |
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It's funny because I'm giving an example of something not in the interest of gamers, just capitalism. And yet you are arguing against it. It just illustrates a completely inconsistent world-view on your point.
If you use something you should pay for it. The people on these servers aren't. NCsoft sells the service, not the game - the service requires you to play on their servers. First off, they are selling the game, at least, in most cases. Second, the "service" they are selling is the servers. Thirdly, yes, if you use it, you should pay for it - except the whole point of playing on 3rd-party servers is that you aren't using "it" (NCsoft's servers).
And finally, you've yet to show anything beyond the EULA that says consumers aren't allowed to play on 3rd party servers, and it's been pointed out to you repeatedly that EULAs aren't binding contracts.
So for something you claim is "simple", you sure fucked it up.
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| 53. |
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Apr 12, 2008, 17:07 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Funny line coming from someone who once said: Why's that funny? That's ENTIRELY my point. If you don't like something then don't buy it - that's how capitalism works. The consumer has the power. In that case I was talking about EA screwing customers, which is why I don't buy or play any EA Sports games. I have no idea why you went back to an unrelated post I made a week and a half ago... that's a bit obsessive.
If you use something you should pay for it. The people on these servers aren't. NCsoft sells the service, not the game - the service requires you to play on their servers. It's absolutely simple. You are wrong.
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn |
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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies." |
| 51. |
Re: ... |
Apr 11, 2008, 22:06 |
Bhruic |
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Do you read anyones posts but your own? Maybe read PHJF's and theyarecomingforyou posts... I did read their posts. And they presented their opinions. Their opinions do not equate with facts.
Right back at you.
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| 50. |
Re: ... |
Apr 11, 2008, 21:16 |
Dagok |
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Uh, so we are "wrong" because we are talking about not knowing how it works in Europe, so you cite a US case and then admit that you don't know how it works in Europe. Way to prove your point. Do you read anyones posts but your own? Maybe read PHJF's and theyarecomingforyou posts...
Othwerwise, I'm done. You are an idiot.
----------------------------------------------------
Burnout Paradise, Bioshock, Ratchet & Clank ToD
Join the "Blues News" Steam Community Group. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/bluesnews/ |
| 49. |
Re: ... |
Apr 11, 2008, 18:16 |
Bhruic |
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But whether you care or not if they stay in business does not give you the right to circumvent their business structure and revenue stream. Doing so is illegal in most countries, and even if it's not, it's ethically wrong. What's disturbing to me is your morals and ethics seem to be very skewed, and then you justify it with asinine arguments. Actually, it's not illegal to circumvent a company's revenue stream in most countries. That doesn't mean there aren't illegal ways of doing it. But there are also plenty of legal ones. As for it being "ethically wrong", perhaps so. On the other hand, there are plenty of companies that have made it a major business practise to do so. Perhaps they are being ethically wrong, perhaps not, but it's not like it's uncommon.
What the fuck does that have anything to do with the situation at hand? Nothing. It's an example of a situation where costing a company its revenue stream is an entirely justifiable action. You keep spouting off as if there is no possible way that it could ever be justified. I'm giving one (of many) examples of how the world isn't as black-and-white as you keep insisting it is.
Uhhm...if it was legal...then nobody would have a problem with it and NCSoft wouldn't be taking them to court now would they? If it was legal, nobody here would be questioning it. Your arguments are bafflingly stupid. No, what's stupid is your lack of comprehension. Seriously, are you just incapable of following an argument, or are you being willfully idiotic? That post was made to counter a specific argument that someone else put forth. Whether it has any particular bearing on the NCsoft case is irrelvant - I wasn't claiming it does. In that particular discussion we were talking about whether a player should have the legal option of playing on free servers. That's a completely separate argument from whether NCsoft should be taking anyone to court.
Oh, and even assuming your comments were relevant - yes, it's entirely possible that NCsoft could be taking them to court even if it were legal. Because it's up to the courts to determine if they are legal. Your argument is the same as saying that someone wouldn't be charged with a crime unless they are guilty.
This message was edited at Apr 11, 18:17. |
| 48. |
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Apr 11, 2008, 18:07 |
Bhruic |
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Actually you guys are all wrong.
Granted this is US law. Things are much different in Europe. Uh, so we are "wrong" because we are talking about not knowing how it works in Europe, so you cite a US case and then admit that you don't know how it works in Europe. Way to prove your point.
Everything I've said has been on the basis that they have the right to defend their property, not that they are definitely doing something illegal. Your argument is 'what property? They aren't losing anything'. I'm not questioning their right to defend their property. However, I'm still not convinced that reverse engineering a connection protocol is "property". I'll refer back to Gaim/Trillian as examples. Your Blizzard example is a good one of how in the US, at least, they do apparently consider it valid property. Fair enough. That still doesn't show how the rest of the world handles it.
And how are they supposed to do that if you think they shouldn't take the server hosts to court? Your first few posts were all aligned with the reasoning that they shouldn't be taking these servers to court in the first place. No, they weren't, as I already explained.
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| 47. |
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Apr 11, 2008, 16:25 |
Dagok |
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...here you are telling me that everyone should be looking out for the welfare of companies they have no direct connection to. Nobody is telling you to look out for NCSofts best interests. But whether you care or not if they stay in business does not give you the right to circumvent their business structure and revenue stream. Doing so is illegal in most countries, and even if it's not, it's ethically wrong. What's disturbing to me is your morals and ethics seem to be very skewed, and then you justify it with asinine arguments.
It's not my job as a consumer to look after the revenue stream of a company.
If, for example, a tire company gets forced to recall a bunch of tires at a large cost to itself, I'm not going to bemoan the fact the company is losing money - it's a necessary side-effect of shipping out a defective product. What the fuck does that have anything to do with the situation at hand? Nothing.
Similarily, if someone were to find a way to legally provide a free server alternative to what NCsoft was providing, that wouldn't bother me in the slightest. That's part of market place competition, and is generally a good thing for the consumer. Uhhm...if it was legal...then nobody would have a problem with it and NCSoft wouldn't be taking them to court now would they? If it was legal, nobody here would be questioning it. Your arguments are bafflingly stupid.
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Burnout Paradise, Bioshock, Ratchet & Clank ToD
Join the "Blues News" Steam Community Group. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/bluesnews/ |
| 46. |
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Apr 11, 2008, 16:12 |
Dagok |
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It hasn't been tested, so we don't know how it'd go. The same would be true for NCSoft. Sure, it's likely to go in their favour, but it's not certain. Actually you guys are all wrong. This has been tested with the Battle.net case. Which I'd like to point out was not even a pay service. So as I said before, whether its a pay service or a free service is irrelevant.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09/02/news_6132467.html
A federal appeals court has ruled that computer programmers do not have the right to reverse-engineer Blizzard Entertainment's video games to improve their playability. Granted this is US law. Things are much different in Europe. Everything I've said has been on the basis that they have the right to defend their property, not that they are definitely doing something illegal. Your argument is 'what property? They aren't losing anything'.
I really think you may want to go through, read what people are saying and comprehend it before responding.
No, my argument is that until it has been proven they have done something illegal And how are they supposed to do that if you think they shouldn't take the server hosts to court? Your first few posts were all aligned with the reasoning that they shouldn't be taking these servers to court in the first place.
----------------------------------------------------
Burnout Paradise, Bioshock, Ratchet & Clank ToD
Join the "Blues News" Steam Community Group. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/bluesnews/
This message was edited at Apr 11, 16:27. |
| 45. |
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Apr 11, 2008, 10:13 |
Bhruic |
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Play the game. Pay the money. End of. Funny line coming from someone who once said:
That is not in the interests of gamers... just capitalism. |
63 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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