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Left 4 Dead 2 Details

The Left 4 Dead 2 Interview on bit-tech.net offers a chat with Chet, talking with Valve's Chet Faliszek about Left 4 Dead 2, the upcoming multiplayer zombie-shooter sequel. The conversation covers the game, as well as the initial backlash that surrounded its announcement, which is also covered in a blurb on VideoGamer.com where Chet says that "I once joked that we could put $20 in a box and charge $10 for it, and someone’s going to complain." The bit-tech.net article also offers hands-on impressions of Left 4 Dead 2, and a first-hand account of gameplay can likewise be found in the Left 4 Dead 2 Preview on IGN.UK. Finally, a blurb on IncGamers indicates Valve is toying with a fourth boss for Left 4 Dead 2, which will contain at least three new bosses, a post on GameDaily indicates Valve is looking at creating cross-game play between Left 4 Dead 2 and the original Left 4 Dead, and IGN unveils the cricket bat as a new L4D2 weapon, the second such Shaun of the Dead homage (after Hellgate London). Thanks Dagok.

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37. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 11, 2009, 18:38 Dev
 
I wasn't asking what you'd like to see, I was asking what you thought we would see, realistically. Heck, I'd like to see all the L4D2 content in L4D1, but that's not going to happen.

Anyway, I didn't have a problem paying the full pre-order price for L4D1, and I wouldn't have a problem with paying it again for L4D2 if they hadn't made specific statements on L4D1 that they've broken. Its those statements that is a problem with me.

But I'm pretty sure we aren't going to agree on this.
 
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36. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 11, 2009, 17:33 Krovven
 
Anything that gets pushed out to every single owner of TF2, I think deserves to be called official, even if valve didn't make it

Calling it "Official" does not give Valve extra credit towards released DLC. It's not theirs, they didn't create it, no matter how you want to try and spin it.

You aren't going to throw out a guess at what we can expect for L4D1 content DLC in the future?

No I'm not. I never have with Valve, and never will. I sit back and watch what is released, and choose to play it or not. I could go on and on what I would like to see done with CSS, DoDs, TF2, L4D in terms of gameplay changes and DLC, but doing so at your request is just a trap so you can argue some more.

Furthermore, I couldn't really care any less about what they do release other than the Matchmaking update, as I'm more interested in how they merge L4D and L4D2. Because as I have said before...I don't feel slighted for having paid $45 for L4D because I've gotten so much out of it, and it's a great game as it is now. And I don't have a problem paying another $45 for L4D2 even if it comes stand-alone.

 
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35. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 10, 2009, 22:31 Dev
 
Dagok:
Anything that gets pushed out to every single owner of TF2, I think deserves to be called official, even if valve didn't make it (yes I'm aware that some are community produced maps). Valve promoted them to official status when they decided that they are good enough for everyone to play.

You aren't going to throw out a guess at what we can expect for L4D1 content DLC in the future?
 
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34. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 10, 2009, 13:45 Krovven
 
All I have to say is this...

http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php

25 maps.

There are 8 Arena maps.

Several of the maps are community maps, that Valve determined to be good enough to release via their updates. Valve did not make these and should be given credit for them, as they were available to the public prior to that.

And if you scroll right down to the bottom, you will see they only have 8 Death Maps, for the official 8 maps...as I said before...8 maps.
 
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33. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 9, 2009, 02:13 Dev
 
Dagok:
Ok then, I told you what *I* expected them to do. If what you were saying ISN'T what you expect, then please tell me what you DO expect? (or if you don't like the word expect, then how about what you think might happen?) I know they haven't announced it, but we can still speculate. I just speculated what we will see for DLC for L4D1 in the future is another campaign or two and if we are lucky, another game mode. I'm saying I doubt we are going to see anything else for the game beyond that come out, it just doesn't make much business sense for valve to concentrate on L4D1 with the sequel coming out.
So, what are your speculations for content we might see?

As for the map thing, its kinda silly to be arguing over a guess that I threw out there (I guessed rather than count up all the official maps in TF2). I don't need to twist anything, because it was just a guess. I've been careful to always talk about "campaigns" in L4D1 for several reasons, one of which is thats the term that valve used in saying thats what we'd be getting more of. Another of which is I didn't want to quibble over the survival map (of which there's really only 1 new one).

BUT, ok, since you didn't like me including all arena maps in TF2, we can subtract the well, granary, & badlands arena maps (which are presumably the ones you are referring to by "copy and paste jobs"). We can also subtract the well CTF map too. So thats 4 maps we aren't counting. 24 current official maps - 4 = 20. The # of maps in initial release were 6. So 20-6 is still 14, which is still over a dozen new ones. I'm surprised you aren't targeting my guess about number of new game modes, since I'm more wrong there than the new official TF2 maps. I think there's only been 3 additional official game modes rather than my guess of 6.

Anyway they were just guesses, and if you look the actual numbers instead of my guesses, TF2 has still had more content pushed out for it for free, than L4D1. And remember, valve was the one that said we'd get more and faster DLC for L4D1 than TF2, and my point was, that hasn't happened.
 
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32. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 9, 2009, 01:18 Krovven
 
Actually you play on maps. You can start a game at any map and are not forced to start at the beginning. Versus mode points are calculated per map and totaled as you go. Survival is just another mode, not really any different than Arena vs CTF.

Ok, so your expectations are that we will see "a couple new weapons, a new campaign, a new infected boss, a new character etc, added to L4D" for DLC.

Fuck you are dense. I stated quite clearly, that I don't know what they plan to release, nobody does, because it hasn't been announced. Don't try and twist my examples as a statement of expectation, like you are trying to twist your way out of using the Arena maps as additional official maps, while discounting the additional maps that L4D offers in various modes.

This comment was edited on Jul 9, 2009, 01:26.
 
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31. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 23:36 Dev
 
Dagok:
Pretty much everytime I mentioned I talked about levels in I used the word "campaign." Thats a little differant than maps in TF2.

TF2 you play on maps, not campaigns. In L4D you play on campaigns, not maps (aside from survival mode).


Ok, so your expectations are that we will see "a couple new weapons, a new campaign, a new infected boss, a new character etc, added to L4D" for DLC.

I certainly hope you are right, but mine are that we will see a new campaign or two, and perhaps if we are lucky a new game mode.
And thats it. Because the L4D2 is going to be taking majority of thier time and effort and new content. And I respect that, its the proper business decision to make them the most money. What I don't respect is being told otherwise by Gabe Newell himself.
 
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30. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 22:23 xXBatmanXx
 
i didnt read the pissin' match, but i probably agree with Dagok!
 
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29. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 19:33 Krovven
 
Edit: Are you counting all the Arena mode maps for TF2? The copy and paste jobs? I seem to recall everyone discounting the Survival Mode maps for L4D as they were just copy and paste jobs. So by your example, L4D spanked TF2 DLC's ass by releasing over 20 maps in it's first DLC.

L4D released with 20 or so coop maps...plus the 10 for Versus mode, along with the 16 for Survival mode, and another 10 for Versus mode in the DLC.


This is where I got the list of "official" maps.

http://teamfortresshq.multiplayernetwork.net/maps/

As for L4D, I'm not saying that some of what they had planned for L4D DLC isnt being mixed in with L4D2 content. What I'm saying is that instead of a couple new weapons, 1 campaign (5 maps), 1 new infected boss, 1 new character etc...they are going to have 12 or so new weapons, 5 new campaigns, a new game mode, 3 or 4 new infected, more items (ie: pipe bombs and mollys), a storyline, new characters.

Their ideas became bigger than the scope of DLC and I can respect that.

Does this mean we won't see a couple new weapons, a new campaign, a new infected boss, a new character etc, added to L4D? Nope it doesn't mean that at all. It just means we still don't know what they will release, or when, as we never did.

This comment was edited on Jul 8, 2009, 19:47.
 
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28. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 18:41 Dev
 
Dagok:
Look if they just decided all that stuff was worth making a whole new game out of it, they aren't going to go and give it away for free. The just put a price on it, and the price is not free. First of all, if they used thier existing already developed content and gave the content of L4D2 to L4D1 owners for free, who would want to buy L4D2 then? If they had wanted to do that, then there'd be no point to announcing L4D2 and taking the hit for doing that, instead all of that would just be DLC. Second, if they decided all that stuff is enough to make a whole new game out of instead of DLC, why would they then turn around and go on to develope a completely new set of content it to give for FREE to l4d1 owners?
No, they aren't going to give new weapons + new characters + new special infected + new campaigns to L4D1 owners. Thier announcement of L4D1 and a little logic tells us that.

New campaigns is about the most we can hope for now. I doubt we'll even see a new game mode unless we get really lucky, since they will want to save that to encourage new purchases of L4D2. I mean that makes the most business sense at this point, save the best for the sequel to encourage new buyers of L4D2. Most people who wanted L4D1 have already bought it, new buyers are less likely to buy it with L4D2 just around the corner. And they've already put heavy sales on L4D1 (down to $20 or $25 if I rememeber right) so most people wanting a bargain price have also already bought it. The biggest chunk of future money for the franchise will be in L4D2.

Also, TF2 started with 6 maps, it now has 24 maps. Thats more than a 8 new ones by my count, and certainly more than the dozen more I guessed at
(I'm counting official maps, as in ones that are pushed out as part of patches to all owners of TF2).
Even if you don't count that silly extra copy of well redone into a ctf map, its still over

BTW, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this, even if in the end we will probably have to agree to disagree.

This comment was edited on Jul 8, 2009, 18:59.
 
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27. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 18:14 Krovven
 
"Yes they still are" ? If you are saying that valve will still release new weapons, survivors, special infected for L4D1, than I want some of what you are smoking!

I am from BC...it's good stuff.

I'm saying that they have said there is more DLC on the way. They have not stated what it is. They rarely do until it's close to release. Note the TF2 patches, they only announced the class changes a couple weeks before release.

the fact remains that they HAVE supported it and added WAY more content beyond what I paid for. They've added a bunch of new weapons, revamped a bunch of characters, added probably a dozen or more "official" maps, a bunch of new game modes and map types (I'm going to guess around half a dozen new modes/types).

So you are comparing a year and a half worth of TF2 updates to the first 5 months after L4D was released. The L4D DLC was far larger than TF2's initial DLC. They have actually released 8 official maps, not a dozen or more.

Two weeks is not much time to do high quality fan stuff, and if I was in the process of working on anything, I'd sure as heck want to switch my content over to L4D2 since it is going to have a better AI director and more features.

You do realize the SDK was held back so that the custom content would be compatible for both games, and would require little work on the mod authors part to get it functional in L4D2?

It's not the first time someone at Valve has said something that ended up changing (ie: Portal 2 being announced, Episodes being released 6 months apart, more maps for CSS, etc, etc.). And it's a very common occurrence around the industry for things to be said, with plans changing later.

In the end, they should be praised for their continued support on all of their games, rather than chastised over the change of plans on one game. Enjoy reveling in your bitterness.

 
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26. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 16:59 Dev
 
Dagok:
Oddly enough, I think the same thing about you, that you aren't listening lol.

I know there was no malicious intent. But I also know that they decided to do this despite what they said about adding stuff to L4D1.

"Yes they still are" ? If you are saying that valve will still release new weapons, survivors, special infected for L4D1, than I want some of what you are smoking! Those are the things they said they were going to deliver for L4D1. You just got through telling me why I shouldn't expect those things for free, but now you are saying I should? I mean its obvious they decided at some point the stuff they were developing for L4D1 DLC better belonged in a sequel, so they changed plans. There's no way they are going to go back and redevelop a whole new bunch of all of those (weapons, survivors, special infected) just for L4D1 when they just got through deciding that the previous bunch of stuff was enough work to make a new product out of!

It shouldn't require "official announcements" from a company to take them at thier word. Especially if as high a person as Gabe Newell states all these specifics they are going to deliver. To me, that kinda thing from Gabe Newell is pretty much as official as you can get. I mean he has the power to make (or at the very least influence) those decisions. Valve probably needs to be less specific in terms of what they say they are going to deliver. Like "we have lots of neat plans that we can't go into detail yet for L4D1 DLC, but trust us they are awesome!" As I've mentioned before, its FAR better to under promise and over deliver and pleasantly surprise people, than to over promise and underdeliver, which upsets people. An exception would be if you need a short term gain at the cost of upsetting your customers, or if you just don't really care about them, like EA.

Regardless of my personal like or dislike (in fact I think they are going too far towards WoW in some of this recent stuff) of specific TF2 changes, the fact remains that they HAVE supported it and added WAY more content beyond what I paid for. They've added a bunch of new weapons, revamped a bunch of characters, added probably a dozen or more "official" maps, a bunch of new game modes and map types (I'm going to guess around half a dozen new modes/types). I was originally just happy to know that TF2 was FINALLY going to be released. All this added stuff is just bonus, and keeps the game fresh, keeps me coming back for more.

Then I see Gabe Newell say:
"Valve co-founder and managing director said the developer intended to follow a similar downloadable content policy as it has with Team Fortress 2."
"So we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time.""

So I'm thinking, "AWESOME! They've done an amazing beyond the call of duty job in adding content to TF2, given me way more than my money's worth with the orange box with TF2 (plus portal was a great game).
They are now comitting to doing the same thing to grow the community, but even quicker with L4D. Man the game itself I'd go and pre-order for just its current content, but now its a no brainer, I'll never get bored with the game with them updating it like TF2!"
And now, present time, what do I see.... I see a single new game mode, no new campaigns, no new maps (beyond a single mini lighthouse level), no new weapons, no new survivors, no new special infected. Nothing even CLOSE to what TF2 got.
Once they decided to pull all that planned content into a sequel instead, they should have pulled a few guys for a short time off of L4D2 to hurry and finish the L4D1 SDK so the community could go and do a bunch of new campaigns at the least. Maybe also do some encouragement of the mod community like they did with past games (not just TF2). Afterall, valve as a company might not even be around today, if it hadn't been for how popular the free fan based mod CS became). Perhaps make one or more of the best fan made campaigns into a new official DLC (like they do with TF2). For just a little investment in time, they could let the community do most of the work adding content while they focused on L4D2. We could now have 6+ months of quality fan campaigns if they released the SDK near release of the game. But now... I mean how much new quality community content are we going to see continue to be developed now for L4D1 when L4D2 was announced just TWO WEEKS!! after they released the beta SDK! Two weeks is not much time to do high quality fan stuff, and if I was in the process of working on anything, I'd sure as heck want to switch my content over to L4D2 since it is going to have a better AI director and more features. I'd be thinking I haven't put much work into this, why not wait a little so I can make it even better?

So what I see is valve making bad decisions about L4D1 and its support and its community support, and shooting themselves in the foot more than once since release of L4D1. Thats not exactly influencing my view of valve or my purchasing of thier products in a positive way.

This comment was edited on Jul 8, 2009, 17:28.
 
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25. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 16:11 Krovven
 
K, see this is what gets me. You don't listen, and you don't see the difference with plans changing, versus what you think they promised you. Nor can you accept that they don't owe you a damned thing. You don't buy a product based on what "might" be released later. I buy Valve games because I know that I enjoy their gameplay, they will be supported post release and we will get some DLC for free. That has occurred, and they state there is more to come. Just because it's not what you expected, or what they happened to mention as possibilities a year ago, does not make them liars.

If they had no intention of doing all that, they should have NEVER said so

It was their full intention at the time of just doing DLC. Now they are doing a sequel as well as DLC. There was no malicious intent, as you seem to imply. They weren't lying for the sake of setting out to deceive anyone.

As I've said repeatedly, the fact that they SAID they would and then now they aren't

As they have repeatedly said...YES THEY STILL ARE. Learn to read and listen. You hold one statement by them as gospel, and god forbid should those plans change. But when they tell you those DLC plans they mentioned before E3, at E3, and have repeated again since E3, are all still in place...you don't listen. Which is why I quoted what Chet said.

Sorry, I guess I'm not supposed to take the word of a game company anymore that has come through with exemplary support in TF2.

You shouldn't take the word of any game company unless something is officially announced, and even then, plans still change. What you are complaining about was something that was never officially announced. It's was a few things mentioned in a couple of interviews, before the game was even released.

As for "Exemplary Support" for TF2...that's just your opinion. There are plenty of people that don't like the direction they have taken with TF2, and complain about it loudly, every patch. Those that do like the direction with TF2, many have complained because only one class was being updated every few months...it's now been over a year and not all classes have been updated yet. Nor was the promise ever made that all classes would be updated as some folks seem to think. Conclusions were jumped to because they did it to one, they must do it for all! Just because TF2 has received regular updates, sometimes introducing things that dramatically change the gameplay, does not mean L4D must get the same treatment, nor does it mean you are right in thinking it should based on some comments made in an interview.

 
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24. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 15:21 Dev
 
Dagok:
They said they would in thier "statements"
If they had no intention of doing all that, they should have NEVER said so (promise/statements, whatever, they said it and they went back on it). As I've said repeatedly, the fact that they SAID they would and then now they aren't, is what gets me. Next time they need to keep their lying mouths shut.
I'd be happy paying the money for L4D2 even if the game came out 6 months later, if they hadn't made a bunch of specific statements about things I should expect for L4D1 DLC.

I'm not the one that said they needed to do it within 6 months (its not "my" timeframe), they are when they said they were going to support the game better than TF2 by releasing stuff faster than TF2. And some of the statements I found were mentioned ONE month prior to L4d1, not several.

I never said they were stopping support. What I said was, they aren't hardly going to release all that stuff that they said anymore for L4D1, even within 2 years. They aren't hardly going to give L4D1 owners more survivors, more special infected, more weapons (like they said they would) anymore or else there'd not be much reason to buy L4D2. Do you think they will? lol. I imagine they will throw another campaign at us to try and appease us in terms of additional content, but I'm not expecting much else content for L4D1.

I wouldn't normally expect a company to release all that for free (in fact I would normally have been happy to pay money for the content) however they've done more work than that for TF2, and when they go and say "we are going to support this BETTER and FASTER with MORE than TF2 oh and here's a list of a bunch of stuff we are adding for DLC" then yeah, I am expecting that (what they said) for free. Sorry, I guess I'm not supposed to take the word of a game company anymore that has come through with exemplary support in TF2.
Actually, if I'm not supposed to take them at thier word, why should I belive they are going to support L4D1 with anymore additional content aside from the matchmaker fix they call content?

This comment was edited on Jul 8, 2009, 15:22.
 
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23. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 13:36 Krovven
 
Dev... "hasn't happened yet".

I didn't know they were obligated to get all the DLC out within the first 6 months after release. As for those so called "promises", they were all made several months prior to the release of L4D, and were made with the plan of trickling out small updates and not having their staff come together to make a huge dev team.

They have not stopped supporting L4D, nor will they. They are under no obligation to release anything to you, within your own ideal timeframe. The so called "promises" were not promises. It was a statement of their intention. Plans change, get over it. They are still supporting L4D and plan to continue to do so with free content.

Do you really think they would have 45 people working on free DLC and just release 5 full campaigns, more bosses, new weapons, gameplay changes, new game mode, etc, etc within a year and for free? Remove your head from your ass.

Free DLC, you'd be waiting 2 years or longer to get a fraction of that. If you don't want to buy L4D2, then don't. Continue to wait for the free DLC content that is still coming, just don't expect it in 'your' timeframe. Valve does things in their timeframe, always have and I hope they always will.
 
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22. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 09:37 Ronin
 
making people play the boomer has to be the single most brilliant idea ever borne from the mind of humanity.

FTFY

Seriously, scoring a full coverage vomit spew on all survivors present, and listening to the dingdingdingdingding as your hits add up...its almost as satisfying as getting a 10-story drop-pounce as a hunter (sometimes more-so).
 
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21. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 08:49 Beamer
 
Afterall, they reveal information about an unexpected sequel to a 6 month old game while keeping silent on the hugely anticipated follow up to the 18 month old Ep2. Can you not see why people are dissatisfied? They've handled it badly and they're far from a small company. L4D2 is completely out of character for the company.

Well, it's different teams working on the products, and different levels of complexity. They're just announcing what's closest.

But I agree it's being handled badly. Gabe knew it, too, from what it sounds like. The "out of character" part is the issue.

Too late for that now.
 
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20. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 08:15 Dev
 
Dagok:
He just lied in that quote you pasted. They are NOT going to do the stuff they said for L4D1.
They specifically promised for L4D1 DLC more campaigns (didn't happen), more survivors (didn't happen), more boss infected (didn't happen), and more weapons (didn't happen). Oh also support like TF2 actually they said they were going to release content BETTER and FASTER than TF2 (didn't happen).

Guess what? All those things ARE happening in L4D2. They obviously started developing the stuff they said they would and ended up making a decision to put all those promised L4D1 features into a new game instead of DLC for L4D1. If they hadn't made specific promises about all those specific features, I'd be fine with it. But since they did, and they broke them and are now lying about it, I'm not fine with it.

Do you honestly think that they will release boss infected, more survivors, and more weapons in L4D1 now, like they specifically promised?

This comment was edited on Jul 8, 2009, 08:17.
 
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19. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 08:12 Veinman
 
I hear you, Silicon. I literally had to tell one dude that I did not have to follow his instructions and would set up wherever I wanted to.  
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18. Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Details Jul 8, 2009, 04:07 Silicon Avatar
 
Eh, I dunno. I loved playing the boomer. It was all those screeching armchair commandos that ruined the game for me. Do this, do that, go here, run, stop. Hold up in the same effing corner every freaking time instead of trying anything new.

Feh. The game played better with the mic off and/or with friends only.
 
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