Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:
Greenbelt, MD 08/22

Regularly scheduled events

Zeno Clash Devs on Piracy, Demo Plans

Ars Technica has an interesting article on the reaction of developer ACE Team to finding their recently released combat game Zeno Clash available for illegal download. Carlos Bordeu of the Chilean developer commented on BitTorrent Sites explaining the impact of piracy on an independent developer, saying in some cases they were surprised to find a positive reaction: "We've received several mails and posts in our own forums of people who pirated the game that decided to buy it because of the message. I don't know if it is a significant percent, or whether this is good strategy as a whole... but it has sparked some very positive reactions in the community." Here is the statement they made on the torrent sites, indicating a demo is in the works:

Iím one of the developers of Zeno Clash. I would appreciate you read this if you are about to download this file.

Zeno Clash is an independently funded game by a very small and sacrificed group of people. The only way in which we can continue making games like this (or a sequel) is to have good sales.

I am aware that at this moment there is still no demo of the game, but we are working on one which will be available soon.

We cannot do anything to stop piracy of the game (and honestly donít intend to do so) but if you are downloading because you wish to try before you buy, I would ask that you purchase the game (and support the independent game development scene) if you enjoy it. We plan on updating Zeno Clash with DLC and continuing support for the game long after itís release.

Thanks for taking the time to read thisÖ hopefully it will make a difference.

View
102 Replies. 6 pages. Viewing page 2.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 ] Older >

82. Re: Zeno Clash Devs on Piracy, Demo Plans May 1, 2009, 15:21 Elessar
 
Verno - You act like the only options are to pirate the game or blow money on it. The third option would be not doing either.
Ignoring a game or forgetting it's existence is a ridiculous statement.

I don't think adding DRM, not releasing a demo or anything else is an excuse to steal/pirate a game and never pay. But what about the flip side to this...

Do you think it's "right" for devs to take money from unsatisfied customers?
 
Avatar 46094
 
"You don't get what you deserve, you get what you get."
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
81. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 13:19 Verno
 
I notice a pattern with you, every time someone disproves you, you change the subject. Suddenly it's not about developers anymore, it's about the pirates! Oh geez lets just ignore the past 2 pages. Give it up already, you got owned sonny.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some free games to obtain that I will totalllllllly buy later because we're all honest gamers here right chap?

This comment was edited on May 1, 2009, 13:21.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
80. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 13:12 Jerykk
 
Hah, you got owned by your own argument Jerykk, stop tapdancing around it.

If you say so...
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
79. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 12:47 Verno
 
Hah, you got owned by your own argument Jerykk, stop tapdancing around it.  
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
78. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 12:05 Jerykk
 
Ignores the thousand other sites and many other ways to pirate things, nice try to dodge that one though.

Uh, what? The most common, popular way to pirate is through torrents. The vast majority of people who use torrents use the popular sites and the popular sites have categorical listings. Usenet listings also have categories. I don't think there are any IRC, HTTP or FTP listings. What was your point again..?

Logical rebuttal time:

1) you're giving away your game for free
2) They aren't paying customers
3) Everything else is quick and legit
4) You could possibly ruin any future relationship with publishers

I think you're confused. We were talking about pirates, not developers. You claimed that pirates don't browse and only download things they're specifically looking for. I explained why that is untrue. I'm not sure why you're suddenly switching out pirates for developers.

With that said, I'll now address your points in the context of developers:

1) Yes, you are giving away your game for free and hoping people will pay for it. However, even if you don't give your game away, it will still get pirated. In the end, piracy is inevitable and all you can do is hope you've made a product people are willing to pay for.

2) Customers and pirates are not mutually exclusive. A very popular stance that anti-piracy folk generally like to take is that there is no overlap between pirates and customers... unless they're talking about stopping piracy, in which case pirates conveniently turn into paying customers. Anti-piracy folk also like to claim that nobody would buy something they already have. Let me ask you this: Why would anybody buy anything if they can get it for free? Piracy is easy and viable to all customers. Why does anyone buy anything? Logically, they would just pirate everything. What's that, you say? Morals and principles? Good point. Now, if a pirate downloads a game and plays it, logic states that they wouldn't buy it... but here comes morality again! If a pirate enjoys a game he downloaded, he might feel compelled to reward the developers by buying it. The point here is that there are varying shades of morality. It's not just right and wrong, good and evil. Some people believe that games should be purchased sight unseen, others believe that games need to prove themselves first. Some people think piracy is inherently evil, other people simply see it as a means to an end. To assume that everyone has the same morals is a bit shortsighted.

3) By "everything else," I assume you mean other forms of advertising? As I mentioned in an earlier post, marketing isn't cheap or easy. If you want to maximize your game's exposure, you're going to have to spend a lot of money and resources. If you only appear on niche sites, your game won't reach the eyes of many people.

4) If you're an indie developer, you don't have a publisher. Publishers deal with marketing so if you do have one, exposure is less of an issue. However, there are still a lot of really obscure published games that people don't know exist.

It has many risks which have been outlined for you, you just ignore them. Would you like me to summarize?

Once again, talking about pirates here, not developers. For a developer to distribute his game for free is risky, sure. There's no guarantee that anybody will buy it. Of course, there's no guarantee of that regardless of piracy. Are people less likely to buy something if they can get it for free? Probably. Are people definitely not going to buy something if they don't know it exists? Yes.

This comment was edited on May 1, 2009, 12:23.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
77. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 11:52 Verno
 
Most publishers are already doing that Tumbler. Blizzard, Relic and even some EA games use torrents for demos, patches and so on. They also are all about ranked matches, ladders and so on. You're asking for things that people are already been doing and most have been doing for awhile now.  
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
76. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 11:18 Tumbler
 
Piracy doesn't help you in any of the scenarios you're faulting other methods for. It's literally uploading files and praying.

Torrenting in general is a brilliant distribution model and that alone is reason to use this tech to get your game out.I've started using uTorrent to pull large patches that get released for games that I have. Company of Heroes, BF2 Beta patch, it's far superior to using a centralized site like fileplanet. But you also have very little security, you can't put something up and hope to control how it gets distributed.

And when people say Piracy I think what they are talking about is Torrents. Torrents are making the distribution of this content ridiculously easy, fast, safe, and virtually impossible to stop. I think the devs/pubs are fighting a losing battle with this, short of clamping down control over the internet and trying to monitor all the traffic you don't stand a chance in hell of slowing down the effectiveness of torrents.

So learn how to use them. Stop paying sites like fileplanet to host your beta's. Put your demo's up on Torrent sites. Build games that don't offer the consumer a very fulfilling experience without a connection back to you. Some companies are adjusting to this, making games that rely on matching you with other players with the game. That is the primary reason I buy games is because I want to play against other players and I assume that the pirated versions won't allow me to do this.

I want to participate in ranked matches and ladders, and stupid shit like that. Exploit that. Quite bitching that you game is getting shared all over the world. TONS of shit is getting shared all over the world. Build something that can take advantage of that sharing network because it's a game changer. No one wants to admit that there is no way to go back at this point. You need to learn to deal with this monster, it's already beaten you. You're patches, demo's, and anything else you want to be shared among players should be available on torrents.

This comment was edited on May 1, 2009, 11:18.
 
99gamers.com-Game trading site, PC digital trading!
Kickstarter "Game Developer"!
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
75. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 07:20 Dades
 
The most popular and mainstream torrent sites (mainly Pirate Bay and Mininova) do have categorical listings.

Ignores the thousand other sites and many other ways to pirate things, nice try to dodge that one though.

Logical rebuttal time:

1) Piracy has no risk.
2) Piracy is easy.
3) Piracy is quick.
4) Piracy is free.

Logical rebuttal time:

1) you're giving away your game for free
2) They aren't paying customers
3) Everything else is quick and legit
4) You could possibly ruin any future relationship with publishers

I agree completely. Consumers don't like risking their money on unfamiliar products. However, piracy is free and has no risks so that's really a moot point.

It has many risks which have been outlined for you, you just ignore them. Would you like me to summarize?
 
Avatar 54452
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
74. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 23:49 Jerykk
 
Many torrent sites don't even have genre or media type listings, they are a total clusterfuck.

The most popular and mainstream torrent sites (mainly Pirate Bay and Mininova) do have categorical listings.

You might catch some numbers from people who just see something new and grab it but more than likely people will ignore what they don't know.

Logical rebuttal time:

1) Piracy has no risk.
2) Piracy is easy.
3) Piracy is quick.
4) Piracy is free.

With those considerations in mind, why wouldn't someone download something that sounds interesting? If you're in a bookstore and you see a book with an interesting cover or title, you'll pick it up and read the back. If you're at Blockbuster and you see a DVD with an interesting cover or title, you'll pick it up and look at the back. If you're on a torrent site and you see a game that sounds interesting, you download it. The notion that people always know exactly what they're looking and care about nothing else is ridiculous, whether applied to a bookstore, a video rental store or a torrent site. People simply like to browse.

Why do you think sequels are so popular? People like familiarity.

I agree completely. Consumers don't like risking their money on unfamiliar products. However, piracy is free and has no risks so that's really a moot point.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
73. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 21:19 Dades
 
You're wrong. If people only looked for specific things, these sites wouldn't bother sorting them into categories and listings. I myself browse listings all the time and download whatever sounds interesting. It's like shopping at a store or perusing the rentals at Blockbuster. You look at a bunch of different products and if you see something that catches your eye, you check it out.

You're both wrong. They do that so the site listings aren't a painful mess to find what you're looking for. Many torrent sites don't even have genre or media type listings, they are a total clusterfuck. I don't know why you would be so quick to prove that point anyways, it invalidates your whole argument. To say that people sit there spamming download on every link on a torrent is hilarious. You might catch some numbers from people who just see something new and grab it but more than likely people will ignore what they don't know. Why do you think sequels are so popular? People like familiarity. Whatever small gains you get from piracy are easily outweighed by it's many negative aspects.

 
Avatar 54452
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
72. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 19:44 Sepharo
 
There goes Verno again telling us about what pirates do and don't do.  
Avatar 17249
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
71. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 16:47 Jerykk
 
People don't just blindly download everything they see on these things, they go looking for specific products to obtain for free.

You're wrong. If people only looked for specific things, these sites wouldn't bother sorting them into categories and listings. I myself browse listings all the time and download whatever sounds interesting. It's like shopping at a store or perusing the rentals at Blockbuster. You look at a bunch of different products and if you see something that catches your eye, you check it out.

This comment was edited on Apr 30, 2009, 17:03.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
70. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 16:07 Verno
 
Which audience? Gamers? Potential gamers? The audience for any product is anyone who might buy it. There's never any guarantee of a sale. The hardest thing for any indie developer to do is gain mainstream exposure and it's in their best interests to take any exposure they can get. People will never buy your product if they don't know it exists so the more people that know it exists, the better. Being featured on niche websites is nice but it won't expand your potential audience. Conversely, piracy caters to a very broad audience.

Piracy fails exactly where you accuse other methods of failing. Torrent sites are a massive blob of copyrighted content. You are vying for space with anything imaginable. People don't just blindly download everything they see on these things, they go looking for specific products to obtain for free. Piracy doesn't help you in any of the scenarios you're faulting other methods for. It's literally uploading files and praying.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
69. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 15:59 Jerykk
 
It costs you nothing to put up your game on sites like Filefront and there are several gaming networks that will rotate in your ads for little to nothing.

It's true that putting your game on Filefront will help... if people browse the Latest Clients section. And yes, you can get ads circulated by certain networks. But if you want to reach the biggest audience, you have to be on the biggest sites and that costs a lot of money.

Uploading your game to a torrent site is not only wasteful but does nothing to help guarantee you will reach your audience.

Which audience? Gamers? Potential gamers? The audience for any product is anyone who might buy it. There's never any guarantee of a sale. The hardest thing for any indie developer to do is gain mainstream exposure and it's in their best interests to take any exposure they can get. People will never buy your product if they don't know it exists so the more people that know it exists, the better. Being featured on niche websites is nice but it won't expand your potential audience. Conversely, piracy caters to a very broad audience.

That's hilarious. Tell me, how would an indie game stand out on a torrent site with about 100,000 torrent files for thousands games from the past 20 years?

Because pirate sites list everything that been recently released. They have listings of genres, platforms, etc, as well. It's fairly common for a pirate to peruse a listing to see what's new even if they aren't looking for something specific.

It doesn't cost the developer any money to send an e-mail to Blues or any other game news sites.

That doesn't guarantee you'll actually show up on the sites. In addition, most game news sites are niche. Kotaku is the closest one to being mainstream. Try sending an e-mail to popular mainstream sites like IGN or Gamespot and see how far that gets you.

This comment was edited on Apr 30, 2009, 16:04.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
68. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 15:50 DDI
 
Haha I can't believe some of the 16 year old retards on here.

PIRACY IMPROVES EXPOSURE OF GAMES; INCREASES SALES!

That's hilarious. Tell me, how would an indie game stand out on a torrent site with about 100,000 torrent files for thousands games from the past 20 years?

Last I checked a lot of sites review indie games that are submitted to them. All of the "AAA" mainstream developers aren't releasing games all the time so reviewers need titles to fill the dead space. It doesn't cost the developer any money to send an e-mail to Blues or any other game news sites.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
67. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 15:48 Verno
 
It costs you nothing to put up your game on sites like Filefront and there are several gaming networks that will rotate in your ads for little to nothing. There are many ways to do the things you're describing and many titles get their IGN/Gamespot/whatever coverage for free after other sites pick them up. Uploading your game to a torrent site is not only wasteful but does nothing to help guarantee you will reach your audience. What it does guarantee is that you might reach a bunch of gamers who don't like paying for their games.  
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
66. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 15:40 Jerykk
 
They have access to most of this for free thanks to the Internet.

Not exactly. Getting your game featured on GTTV or on the main page of Gamespot or IGN requires a lot of leverage/money. Getting a mainstream site to preview your game or interview you is no simple task either. Producing fancy trailers takes time and resources. Magazine ads and TV spots cost lots and lots of money. Even getting an ad on a popular website costs a lot of money. Publishers handle these things because they have the money, resources and leverage. Indie developers do not.

The point here is that, yes, you can make all the websites, screenshots, trailers and demos you want for free. The hard part is letting people know these things even exist and piracy does this automatically for pretty much anything digital.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
65. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 13:49 Verno
 
The ideal way to promote a game would be to have an extensive marketing campaign along with trailers, screenshots, previews, interviews, Q&As, demos, TV spots, magazine ads, etc. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen for most indie developers. Although piracy is not the best solution, the fact remains that it provides exposure to lots of people. If you're an indie dev and you make a game, you want as many people to know about it as possible. Piracy is a means to this end.

They have access to most of this for free thanks to the Internet. I can accept that some indie devs do not have the free time between development, life and so on to go forth and do these things for themselves but nonetheless the access is there and you will get much more targeted potential consumer bases out of that then you will just uploading your game to torrent sites.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
64. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 12:22 Jerykk
 
Nope you're wrong. Piracy was hard before.

I never said it wasn't. When I stated that torrents have made piracy all too obvious, I meant that in terms of both awareness and usage. Torrents are not only incredibly easy to use but they are incredibly easy to track as well.

Some obscure indie dev with 1 guy making the game has no real upside or downside to anything, he's just looking to get people interested. Even then there are better ways to do it, he's just taking the lazy way out.

The ideal way to promote a game would be to have an extensive marketing campaign along with trailers, screenshots, previews, interviews, Q&As, demos, TV spots, magazine ads, etc. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen for most indie developers. Although piracy is not the best solution, the fact remains that it provides exposure to lots of people. If you're an indie dev and you make a game, you want as many people to know about it as possible. Piracy is a means to this end.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
63. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy Apr 30, 2009, 09:28 Verno
 
I blame torrents for that. Piracy has always been around but torrents have made it all too obvious.

Nope you're wrong. Piracy was hard before. You had to sit on IRC messaging a stupid bot the same command, sitting in a queue. You had to find an FTP server using pre-Google search engines. You had to use horrific Usenet clients and 5 other apps. Now you basically click a few buttons. You had to teach piracy to other people, it wasn't something they sat down and picked up. Nowadays any moron can pirate something and thanks to Google they can not only find the files but find out how to unrar, burn and copy a crack. Piracy is stupid easy now and everyone has a 3+mbps connection.

Does it have upsides? Yup. Free exposure for obscure games with non-existent marketing and hype.

That's not really an upside. Some obscure indie dev with 1 guy making the game has no real upside or downside to anything, he's just looking to get people interested. Even then there are better ways to do it, he's just taking the lazy way out.

Also all of those Introversion posts are hilarious given the news blurb today about their struggles during 2008.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Infamous Second Son
Watching: Midsomer Murders, Dominion, The Knick
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
102 Replies. 6 pages. Viewing page 2.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 ] Older >


footer

Blue's News logo