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Zeno Clash Devs on Piracy, Demo Plans

Ars Technica has an interesting article on the reaction of developer ACE Team to finding their recently released combat game Zeno Clash available for illegal download. Carlos Bordeu of the Chilean developer commented on BitTorrent Sites explaining the impact of piracy on an independent developer, saying in some cases they were surprised to find a positive reaction: "We've received several mails and posts in our own forums of people who pirated the game that decided to buy it because of the message. I don't know if it is a significant percent, or whether this is good strategy as a whole... but it has sparked some very positive reactions in the community." Here is the statement they made on the torrent sites, indicating a demo is in the works:

Iím one of the developers of Zeno Clash. I would appreciate you read this if you are about to download this file.

Zeno Clash is an independently funded game by a very small and sacrificed group of people. The only way in which we can continue making games like this (or a sequel) is to have good sales.

I am aware that at this moment there is still no demo of the game, but we are working on one which will be available soon.

We cannot do anything to stop piracy of the game (and honestly donít intend to do so) but if you are downloading because you wish to try before you buy, I would ask that you purchase the game (and support the independent game development scene) if you enjoy it. We plan on updating Zeno Clash with DLC and continuing support for the game long after itís release.

Thanks for taking the time to read thisÖ hopefully it will make a difference.

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102. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 14:04 Tumbler
 
Just tie everything to online accounts and leave the really hardcore pirates to play on buggy emulated servers.

This has pros and cons. As a consumer I think it should remain anonomous like we saw in the past. You enter a CD key and if it's valid that is the end of it. Connecting those CD keys to an account with personal info and a user name makes it harder to resell games and such but that's a compromise I think is fair in the end... Relic has been fair with reassigning those keys in the past, I bought a used copy of CoH, Opposing Fronts, and when I went to link it to my account for online play it informed me that it would be unregistering it from another and that would only be possible for a limited number of times...

Seems reasonable all things considered. The software works out of the box but online content, MP games, etc, is more exclusive content for software owners. (IE Eventually reselling the game will not enable access to the online content for the new user). The devs/pubs that insist on authenticating each install and guarding their program from all comers, legit and not, are giving this industry a black eye.

Verno you've mentioned on several occasions how annoyed you get that Pirates can play new releases that they got for free before you can play them as a legit paying customer, or that they are playing the same game for free that you had to pay for... The reality I see is that in many cases the Pirates are using a superior product. It's available sooner, it loads with less trouble, and it costs nothing... The publisher by comparison makes you wait till some arbitrary date he decides, then forces you to register and live with all kinds of crazy hoops to jump through, charges a premium price, and offers no return policy. And all that comes with access to online content that the pirate would not have...which in the end feels like a joke most of the time in my opinion.

The question I keep asking myself is, "Why am I a paying customer?" Most of the games I enjoy are all online games so Piracy doesn't really offer much that I want but the software is available and playing "by the rules" doesn't seem to offer me much but an easy way to lose money...

I spend a lot more money on gamefly and steam sales now. PC software in general has gotten so bad that I avoid purchasing almost ANYTHING. New OS's, new versions of office, new versions of almost anything is bound to have all kinds of hooks in it that make it a ripoff for me.

I still use a copy of Office 2000 because I can install it across my home computer and laptop without a problem. I stayed with XP much longer than necessary because I could use my copy on my laptop and home computer. (although now I've ended up with several licenses from broken laptops, etc and have enough codes to satisfy...) Software companies across the board have taken the gloves off when it comes to consumers. I recall buying a DVD backup program from Fry's several years ago, it required activations and after formatting my HDD enough times those activations ran out and the response I got was, "You shouldn't be installing this program on other peoples computers." I think I paid $30 or something, and I ended up finding free tools that do the same thing, but WTF?! I bought your product legally and that is my reward?! And this isn't uncommon. Software companies across the board are basically trying to steal money from consumers in my opinion. And maybe this is what they have to do to survive. Software isn't tremendously different than it was 10 years ago so with all those older versions available convincing people to buy the new 2009 version has got to be getting impossibly hard... It's all fucked up. And my wallet is the drug of choice to fix their problems it seems. Who cares what the software does right or wrong, just get the money...

This comment was edited on May 4, 2009, 14:05.
 
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101. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 13:27 Verno
 
If they removed all DRM tomorrow would it solve everything? Nope. I'm not saying they shouldn't but the industry faces significantly more challenging problems than DRM. Piracy is an annoyance that will always be around, not saying it should be ignored but I think there's smarter ways to fight it than DRM. Just tie everything to online accounts and leave the really hardcore pirates to play on buggy emulated servers. Then let's get back to addressing the real problems within the industry.  
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100. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 13:08 Tumbler
 
you are precisely the reason DRM exists. you have no concept of actual reality. just the painted picture you have in your head.

How does it always end with this?

DRM exists because of pirates? Tell me how DRM is affecting pirates? I see it affecting me, the paying customers a lot more than pirates.

DRM is designed for the paying customer. DRM is designed to limit a softwares use to paying customers. Get that through you heads please. DRM aims at paying customers. What good is DRM against pirates when the only software that is pirated is that with DRM software DISABLED.
(And what software has been successsfully protected from pirates with DRM?! At best online services, like MMO's are the only programs and that is NOT because of DRM)

In case you've been living under a rock, the reason gamers in general don't support DRM as some industry saving medicine is because it screws paying customers over and doesn't do anything to stop piracy.

Good vs Evil? How about sales pitch vs reality. DRM is screwing ME, the paying customer. NOT PIRATES.

This comment was edited on May 4, 2009, 13:09.
 
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99. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 12:40 Verno
 
I don't know, for every stupid analogy I see the anti-piracy crowd make, there's an equally retarded one from the pirate folks. Both sides want to justify their actions but neither will convince the other so these things always seem to go the same way. I don't really pirate much stuff, mostly movies and even then I probably buy twice as many dvds as I do downloading. With games I always figure I better buy it otherwise I might not ever see a followup. I've played too many great games from way back that never got sequels and I remember my friends and I pirating the hell out of it. I don't know if it's direct cause and effect or not but I figure I'm out of school now with a decent job so why keep stealing stuff?  
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98. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 11:57 Elessar
 
Dades - Pirate your crap but shut up about it. Be happy with potentially free stuff or at least "advance demos", just stop talking about it. It's like listening to bank robbers who are dumb enough to brag after the fact.
See Jerykk? This is why you'll never get through to him. He's comparing you to a bank robber. When is the last time you've heard of bank robbers giving money back to the banks they stole from? Again, the black and white mentality fails.
 
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97. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 11:46 CythrawL
 
I think its amazing that something that started off in the early 80's with schoolkids copying their ZX Spectrum games with a dual tape deck and swapping them in the playground has evolved into what it is today.

There are some pretty valid arguments in this thread and some of them I totally agree with.. Nothing is totally black and white.
 
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96. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 4, 2009, 08:58 dryden555
 
ouch Manic. You nailed it.  
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95. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 3, 2009, 12:48 manic half
 
Jerykk is literally the only person in this thread with any idea about how things work. he seems to be the only person who lives the 'gray' area of life where the rest of us live.

its amusing watching the rest of you with your 'good' and 'evil' arguments. you are precisely the reason DRM exists. you have no concept of actual reality. just the painted picture you have in your head.

 
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94. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 18:16 Jerykk
 
Pirates think they have a moral absolute right to play every single game released on the market, so they use the Try Before U Buy rationalization, some nonsense about free advertising and so on.

"Moral absolute right?" There is no such thing. I have no legal or moral right to pirate. In fact, the notion of rights in general is fairly absurd and holds no value whatsoever unless enforced. A developer doesn't have the right to profit simply because they've made a game. If they've made a game I enjoy, I'll reward them but not because of any arbitrary law. I'll reward them because I want them to continue making good games.

Pirate your crap but shut up about it. Be happy with potentially free stuff or at least "advance demos", just stop talking about it. It's like listening to bank robbers who are dumb enough to brag after the fact.

This is a thread about piracy. It wouldn't be a very interesting thread if everybody had the same opinion.
 
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93. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 18:05 Jerykk
 
You have done a great job making it sound completely cool and OK and not at all stealing from struggling developers, but that's exactly what it is.

"Struggling?" If all developers were poor indie developers, you might have a point. But I don't think companies like Epic are on the verge of bankruptcy because I pirated Gears of War, played it for an hour and then got bored of it.

If I go to a restaurant I have never been to before, you bet your ass I would like to eat the meal, then decide if it was good enough to purchase. I can't do that though, because I ate the meal either way and need to pay for the privledge.

I already went through this exact analogy. You aren't paying for the privilege of eating food. You are paying for the sustenance that food provides. That's why fast food is cheap and healthier food is expensive. Likewise, I'm not paying for the privilege of playing a game, I'm paying for the entertainment that a good game provides. Paying for a shitty experience doesn't make any sense and only serves to reward crappy developers.

If you play a game and never pay anything for it, you stole the game... the problem with your "moral middle-ground" is that you miss the obvious moral absolute sitting right in front of you.

So if you played TF2, L4D or UT3 during any of Steam's free weekends, you stole the game? Or if you play a demo, you are stealing the game? What if you play a game at a friend's house? Or borrow a game from him? The act itself is exactly the same: you are playing a game without paying for it. The only difference lies in legality which really doesn't mean anything to me.

If you really want to never pay for anything you don't know for certain you enjoy before hand, only buy games with demos. No demo? No sale. And tell the publisher why. Or just buy games praised by trusted persons, which is what I do, and I am rarely dissapointed (f'ing Saint's Row 2!).

Few problems with that approach. Firstly, demos are not always reliable representations of a game's final quality. The Hitman: Blood Money demo used the training mission from the full game and completely misrepresented the game as a whole. The Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and DX2 demos took parts from different levels and mashed them all into one level. I really loved the NOLF1 demo and played it many times over. However, the full version just couldn't hold my interest past the first few levels. The full game is a better representation of the full game than a demo. Secondly, you'll miss out on a lot of good games that don't have demos. You punish the developers for the stupidity of the publisher. Finally, I am never disappointed with any games I buy because I always know exactly what I'm getting and how much it is worth to me. And yes, customers do establish value. This is why people often wait until prices drop before buying stuff. The only difference is that I'm not assuming that a game isn't worth full price. I know it's not worth full price because I've actually played it.

All you're doing now is adding to the piracy statistics, adding seeds to pirated games for those who will NOT buy them, no matter what, and most importantly, to me anyway, contributing to the low opinion of PC game sales.

As I've explained numerous times before, I don't contribute to piracy statistics because I don't use torrents which are used for such statistics. Also, publishers have a low opinion of PC game sales because PC game sales ARE low compared to consoles. This has nothing to do with piracy. Piracy could cease to exist and consoles would still be far more mainstream than PC gaming. If every PC game sold millions of copies, nobody would care about piracy even if the numbers were much higher.

This comment was edited on May 2, 2009, 18:07.
 
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92. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 11:33 Dades
 
These threads always degenerate into the same thing. Pirates think they have a moral absolute right to play every single game released on the market, so they use the Try Before U Buy rationalization, some nonsense about free advertising and so on.

Pirate your crap but shut up about it. Be happy with potentially free stuff or at least "advance demos", just stop talking about it. It's like listening to bank robbers who are dumb enough to brag after the fact.

This comment was edited on May 2, 2009, 11:34.
 
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91. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 11:29 Elessar
 
All you're doing now is adding to the piracy statistics, adding seeds to pirated games for those who will NOT buy them, no matter what, and most importantly, to me anyway, contributing to the low opinion of PC game sales.
Ah, but that's not all he's doing. If he likes it and buys it, he's adding to the good, fact-based sales statistics as well.

You can tell people to ignore games w/out demos all you want. But in reality that's hardly feasible and if I had to guess, most people wouldn't just skip a game. If an honest person follows a game and is curious enough, they'll do what the devs failed to do in the first place; Help them sell their game by offering themselves a first hand experience.

Look, I think it sucks that it comes down to this for some people, but it is what it is. Devs have to fight battles on many fronts, but this is one they can actually address without there being ambiguous factors involved.
 
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90. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 08:11 StingingVelvet
 
The problem here is that your sense of morality is comprised of absolutes. You are either a noble and honorable consumer who buys everything you have or you are a scum-sucking thief who steals everything and then laughs about it. There's no middle ground. If a pirate buys a game, obviously it's only to ease their conscience and not to reward a developer for making a good game.

The best analogy I can think of is the D&D alignment system. Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Evil, etc. Based on your arguments, it seems like you only believe in Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil.

And you have +20 on your rationalization ability, but you're the only one it's effective on.

The simple fact of the matter is that "I'm going to take your product, use it as much as I want, then decide whether to pay you for it" is complete B.S.. You have done a great job making it sound completely cool and OK and not at all stealing from struggling developers, but that's exactly what it is.

I'm not saying it doesn't benefit you, or for that matter the consumer, but that's not the point. If I go to a restaurant I have never been to before, you bet your ass I would like to eat the meal, then decide if it was good enough to purchase. I can't do that though, because I ate the meal either way and need to pay for the privledge. If you play a game and never pay anything for it, you stole the game... the problem with your "moral middle-ground" is that you miss the obvious moral absolute sitting right in front of you.

If you really want to never pay for anything you don't know for certain you enjoy before hand, only buy games with demos. No demo? No sale. And tell the publisher why. Or just buy games praised by trusted persons, which is what I do, and I am rarely dissapointed (f'ing Saint's Row 2!).

All you're doing now is adding to the piracy statistics, adding seeds to pirated games for those who will NOT buy them, no matter what, and most importantly, to me anyway, contributing to the low opinion of PC game sales.
 
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89. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 02:47 GT
 
Pirating the game reinforces their belief that DRM is helpful.
No, what it actually does is reinforce the truth that the DRM is futile. If it weren't, there would be no pirate downloads to track.

Bitching on messageboards about DRM doesn't really seem to helping does it?
Actually, it does. That's how the groundswell against StarForce started and convinced mainstream publishers like Ubisoft to stop using it. It's also a big reason why EA finally came around and released revoke tools for its SecuROM games and why the next Sims game won't have SecuROM in it. If there were no flood of complaints on blogs, forums, Amazon, etc., those things would not happen.

This comment was edited on May 2, 2009, 02:55.
 
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88. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 2, 2009, 01:47 Jerykk
 
Are you really trying to suggest that stealing is alright?

I'm saying that the act of theft alone holds no meaning. It all depends on context. If I'm stealing medicine from somebody who will die without it, that's a pretty mean thing to do. If I'm stealing guns from a warlord who would use them to commit genocide, that's a pretty nice move on my behalf. If I download a game, enjoy it and buy it, the act of stealing is rendered completely irrelevant. The developers made a good game and were rewarded for it. Conversely, if I play a game for an hour and don't enjoy it, I won't reward the developers because they didn't make a good game.

Think of it like this: The purpose of food is to provide sustenance. If I go to a restaurant, order a meal, eat it and find out it isn't very good, I'm still obligated to pay for it because it provided sustenance. The purpose of a game is to provide entertainment. If I play a game and it bores me, I'm not going to pay for it because it failed to provide me with entertainment. The key difference is that food gives you a lot more choice. If food is undercooked, you can demand that the restaurant cook it some more. If you find a dead rat in your meal, you can get a new meal. If your meal makes you vomit, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't charge for it. With games, you're pretty much screwed once you hand over your money. You can't return it, there's no guarantee that the game will work, there's no guarantee that the game will be fixed, there's no guarantee that the game isn't a piece of crap.

Simply put: I'm not going to pay for the privilege of playing a game. I'm only going to pay for the privilege of playing a game that I actually enjoy.

That's all this is... people trying to justify piracy because they don't want to pay for games. By occasionally buying a game pirates ease their conscience and justify it in their mind.

The problem here is that your sense of morality is comprised of absolutes. You are either a noble and honorable consumer who buys everything you have or you are a scum-sucking thief who steals everything and then laughs about it. There's no middle ground. If a pirate buys a game, obviously it's only to ease their conscience and not to reward a developer for making a good game.

The best analogy I can think of is the D&D alignment system. Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Evil, etc. Based on your arguments, it seems like you only believe in Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil.
 
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87. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 19:20 Innocent
 
lol anyone notice that the demo for this thing is out today? this monster epic debate on piracy, and the next freakin day they release a demo. could the lesson be: to expedite demo production, pirate the game?  
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86. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 17:29 theyarecomingforyou
 
The point here is that there are varying shades of morality. It's not just right and wrong, good and evil. Some people believe that games should be purchased sight unseen, others believe that games need to prove themselves first. Some people think piracy is inherently evil, other people simply see it as a means to an end. To assume that everyone has the same morals is a bit shortsighted.
Are you really trying to suggest that stealing is alright? And yes, that's what it is - getting a product without paying for it. Obviously it's not but people try to justify it to themselves, convince themselves that it's okay when they know really it's not. That's all this is... people trying to justify piracy because they don't want to pay for games. By occasionally buying a game pirates ease their conscience and justify it in their mind. What's the excuse this time? Lack of a demo? Too expensive? Bloated? Poor narrative? Too short? Not polished enough?
 
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85. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 16:35 Elessar
 
Dades - Ignoring the game completely hurts them a lot more than anything else you do. Bitching on messageboards about DRM doesn't really seem to helping does it?
This would be true if I were talking about teaching the devs a lesson. But I wasn't. I was saying that if you're interested in a game, but have no way to determine your money will be well spent, saying you should simply skip it is a ridiculous statement.
Jerykk - Customers and pirates are not mutually exclusive. A very popular stance that anti-piracy folk generally like to take is that there is no overlap between pirates and customers... unless they're talking about stopping piracy, in which case pirates conveniently turn into paying customers. Anti-piracy folk also like to claim that nobody would buy something they already have. Let me ask you this: Why would anybody buy anything if they can get it for free? Piracy is easy and viable to all customers. Why does anyone buy anything? Logically, they would just pirate everything. What's that, you say? Morals and principles? Good point. Now, if a pirate downloads a game and plays it, logic states that they wouldn't buy it... but here comes morality again! If a pirate enjoys a game he downloaded, he might feel compelled to reward the developers by buying it. The point here is that there are varying shades of morality. It's not just right and wrong, good and evil. Some people believe that games should be purchased sight unseen, others believe that games need to prove themselves first. Some people think piracy is inherently evil, other people simply see it as a means to an end. To assume that everyone has the same morals is a bit shortsighted.
I didn't read this whole debate, so I can't attest to everything that was said. But I did catch this and I think it was very well said. The topic is the epitome of grey area.
 
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84. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 16:11 Dades
 
Ignoring a game or forgetting it's existence is a ridiculous statement.

Why? You pirate or purchase every single game that is released? Talking about a game gives it attention and spreads word of mouth, whether negative or positive. Downloading a game shows interest, publishers aren't dumb and they hired companies who track this long ago. Buying the game supports their aim with DRM. Pirating the game reinforces their belief that DRM is helpful. Ignoring the game completely hurts them a lot more than anything else you do. Bitching on messageboards about DRM doesn't really seem to helping does it?

Jerykk, I don't really have the energy today for a long circular debate and I find you an uncompromising poster who is unwilling to ever concede anything so you win, enjoy the spoils of victory. I will say that while I am warming to your view of personal piracy as a consumer but as usual you push it to the extreme.
 
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83. Re: Zeno Clash v. Piracy May 1, 2009, 15:28 Jerykk
 
I notice a pattern with you, every time someone disproves you, you change the subject.

Sorry Vern, I think you need to go back and actually read post 73. You know, the post I directly responded to. In fact, here's exactly what I responded to: You might catch some numbers from people who just see something new and grab it but more than likely people will ignore what they don't know.

Post 73 was specifically about the downloading habits of pirates. Dades made a statement about that which I disagreed with so I refuted it. He then changed the subject to developers when the original post was clearly referring to pirates.

In any case, I already offered (in the very same post) a rebuttal with a developer's standpoint considered. Here it is again:

With that said, I'll now address your points in the context of developers:

1) Yes, you are giving away your game for free and hoping people will pay for it. However, even if you don't give your game away, it will still get pirated. In the end, piracy is inevitable and all you can do is hope you've made a product people are willing to pay for.

2) Customers and pirates are not mutually exclusive. A very popular stance that anti-piracy folk generally like to take is that there is no overlap between pirates and customers... unless they're talking about stopping piracy, in which case pirates conveniently turn into paying customers. Anti-piracy folk also like to claim that nobody would buy something they already have. Let me ask you this: Why would anybody buy anything if they can get it for free? Piracy is easy and viable to all customers. Why does anyone buy anything? Logically, they would just pirate everything. What's that, you say? Morals and principles? Good point. Now, if a pirate downloads a game and plays it, logic states that they wouldn't buy it... but here comes morality again! If a pirate enjoys a game he downloaded, he might feel compelled to reward the developers by buying it. The point here is that there are varying shades of morality. It's not just right and wrong, good and evil. Some people believe that games should be purchased sight unseen, others believe that games need to prove themselves first. Some people think piracy is inherently evil, other people simply see it as a means to an end. To assume that everyone has the same morals is a bit shortsighted.

3) By "everything else," I assume you mean other forms of advertising? As I mentioned in an earlier post, marketing isn't cheap or easy. If you want to maximize your game's exposure, you're going to have to spend a lot of money and resources. If you only appear on niche sites, your game won't reach the eyes of many people.

4) If you're an indie developer, you don't have a publisher. Publishers deal with marketing so if you do have one, exposure is less of an issue. However, there are still a lot of really obscure published games that people don't know exist.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some free games to obtain that I will totalllllllly buy later because we're all honest gamers here right chap?

Refer to #2 above.

This comment was edited on May 1, 2009, 15:30.
 
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