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Out of the Blue

I think the email wackiness I mentioned from over the weekend has abated. Of course it's possible that people are getting weird bounce messages and are unable to tell me due to weird bounce messages, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case.

Weird Bouncing Links: Thanks Ant and Mike Martinez.
Play: Moss.
Link of the Morning: Seven Hidden Video Game Dangers that Should Concern Parents.
Anatomy of an Ikea product.
Science! Music Has Its Own Geometry, Researchers Find.
Space Workers Find Message In A Bottle And Decide To Answer It.
Coral spawn turns Palau seas pink.
Image: Jessica Rabbit Untooned. Thanks Digg.
Media: Enthusiast invents body protection: real life Halo.
Mario Killing Spree.
Happy Tree Friends - Books of Fury (Homage to The Matrix).

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50. Re: No subject Apr 23, 2008, 17:48 CreamyBlood
 
It's a complex issue and just after reading this thread I'm not sure where I stand anymore.

I've always been mostly anti-gun from some naive, idealist point of view mainly because I think guns are mostly used for killing people. Of course coming from Canada that may be part of my culture but then again ten years ago it was quite common to see pickup trucks driving around with rifles on racks hanging in their rear windows. Not so much anymore.

And if you believe Michael Moore, Canadians have more guns per person than Americans do with a much lower violent crime rate.

We also spent millions of dollars implementing a national gun registry that turned into quite a fiasco several years ago.

I live in a booming city and we've seen the murder rate go right up over the past several years. Shootings that used to occur once in a blue moon, are now becoming a weekly or daily occurrence.

A new law is being proposed that would allow police to confiscate your car permanently if caught with a loaded and/or unregistered gun. I've always said that we should just throw them in jail for two years or so, no questions asked. If you have a loaded gun on your person, no matter who you are, you do time.

For the hobbiests that like to go to the firing range or shoot gophers (or squirrels as the case may be), you can transport your gun with the bullets locked in one box, the gun in another with both in your trunk.

Obviously that's pretty draconian but I don't see why anyone should be wandering around with a loaded gun. Of course that's not going to ever work in the US and I think it's too late for Canada as well. Should we all get guns and just hope the the guy with the fasted trigger is the one in the 'right' when an argument gets nasty?

I lived in California for many years and my girlfriend always carried a loaded gun in her glove box for protection. My friend who was fifty-five at the time had at least three loaded guns scattered around his home (that he told me about, probably had a few more), just in case. So I can't see having automatic jail time for possession ever ever working in the US. Nor here in Canada.

I've had three friends murdered in the last five years although guns weren't involved in any of them. So maybe Enahs is right, we should stop using excessive reactionary measures attacking the symptoms and put our resources into trying to solve the root of the problem.

In my heart, I still don't think that anyone should be carrying a loaded gun around with them for any reason and we should make it painful for those caught doing so. Unfortunately I live in the real world and there aren't any easy answers. In the meantime both criminals and honest citizens will continue to shoot each other. I just hope I don't get caught in the crossfire.

 
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49. Re: No subject Apr 23, 2008, 11:04 xXBatmanXx
 
You're comparing owning a firearm, whose purpose is again solely to kill things, to wearing my seatbelt, whose sole purpose is to save things?

Actually, my firearm is to save things. My life.

Playing: GTAIII(PC),Two Worlds(PC), Dead Rising, Lego SW Saga.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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48. Re: No subject Apr 23, 2008, 00:00 PHJF
 
You're comparing owning a firearm, whose purpose is again solely to kill things, to wearing my seatbelt, whose sole purpose is to save things?  
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47. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 20:51 xXBatmanXx
 
But of course it's your right to worry about whatever you want to.

Using your logic (which you avoided already) you must also not:

Wear a condom during sex
Wear your seatbelt
Lock your car doors
Lock your house
...and anything else you can think of....because, "hey, the chances are so small something is going to happen, so what...I don't need to prepare."

I find that utter bullshit.

Playing: GTAIII(PC),Two Worlds(PC), Dead Rising, Lego SW Saga.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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46. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 17:05 PHJF
 
I live in a suburb with virtually no crime, and I grew up in another suburb with virtually no crime. If you have to wait 45 minutes for the police to show up you're admitting their is a problem.

You said yourself you've never had to use your firearm, which further proves my point; this isn't some post apocalyptic wasteland with psychos running around trying to kill everybody. I live just outside of Akron and Cleveland so it's not like I don't know there are violent criminals out there. But am I carrying a gun everytime I head to the city because of that .001% chance somebody will try and mug me?

America is so fucking hyped up on "what if" scenarios lately. I'm not worrying over what might happen and how to prepare for everything from a dirty bomb attack while I'm at school in Akron to a plane being rammed into my house. It's stupid.

But of course it's your right to worry about whatever you want to.
Are there responsible people out there who can wield firearms? Sure, you're probably one of them. But this country isn't ... *mature* enough or able to ensure that only responsible people have firearms. Better nobody than anybody.
 
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45. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 16:39 Yosemite Sam
 
Wow. No need to go any further. Attack the person and not the problem?

Like your selective cliping of my statement where I did attack the problem? and just, my bad, added a moron at the end.

Sums up this thread:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Logical-Fallacies

Heh Dracula.






"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
This comment was edited on Apr 22, 16:53.
 
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CIV4 MOD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326525
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44. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 16:28 Yosemite Sam
 
So your solution is to just spend decades on a project, decades on something that is a symptom of the problem and not the cause.
Are you saying guns make people evil? If I gave you a gun, you would go kill somebody? That you have no self control? Have no understanding of responsibility, respect, and compassion for a fellow human being?
Your solution is to spend many many years and millions of dollars and not do nothing to address the reason why people are criminals. Which, if you put the same amount of money and effort in to that, you can probably achieve better results.

Of course I'm not saying that, and I never said any such thing, if you have to choose between one or the other then obviously the most important thing would be education and an honest effort at tackling the social issues. But you dont have to pick one or the other, do both. You can educate and solve all the social issues but you will still have bad people, some people are just plain fucked up regardless of circumstance, you will always have bad people and unforutnatly those kind of people are generally the worst of the worst, so why give them easy access to guns? and what about all the accidental deaths becuase some kid found his dads gun, has absoluty nothing to do with crime or social issues but still kills, easy access to guns is just a receipt for death. Just wait, with your painfully easy access to weapons and the current state of affairs, goverment catering to the rich at the expense of the poor and middle, totally underfunded and inept education system, your social problems are going through the roof and I see no effort whatsoever to stem the tide.


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
 
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CIV4 MOD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326525
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43. No subject Apr 22, 2008, 14:07 xXBatmanXx
 
Sums up this thread:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Logical-Fallacies

Playing: GTAIII(PC),Two Worlds(PC), Dead Rising, Lego SW Saga.
 
Avatar 10714
 
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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42. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 12:29 xXBatmanXx
 
And there's the problem: you aren't supposed to have the responsibility, the police are.

Anyone who thinks the polcie are there to "protect" you are blind.
There have been many cases where the system has flat out said, "we don't have to protect anyone, we respond to calls for help" Period.

You're supposed to feel protected by your police force. If you don't, the solution isn't to go dispensing vigilante justice with your personal sidearm, it's to reform the police department.

P, I like you as a friend, I really do - but that has got to be one of the most retarded things I have ever read.

What Utopia do you live in?
I live in Minneapolis, MN, considered to be one of the safest large cities in the free world...and the police response time is around 45 minutes. heh. WTF are they going to do for me? Or my neighbor? Police are reactive. The populous need to be proactive.

NO ONE is walking around the north side of Minneapolis dispensing justice. That is absurd.

So do you leave your doors unlocked? Your valuables sitting on your front lawn? Walk down dark alleys?

If not - why not? The police will protect you!!! *sigh*

Playing: GTAIII(PC),Two Worlds(PC), Dead Rising, Lego SW Saga.
This comment was edited on Apr 22, 12:45.
 
Avatar 10714
 
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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41. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 10:26 Inexorable
 
You're supposed to feel protected by your police force. If you don't, the solution isn't to go dispensing vigilante justice with your personal sidearm, it's to reform the police department.

"Dispensing vigilante justice" and "self-defense" are not the same thing. The right of a person to defend their person and their property is essential. One cannot rely on the state to provide that right to the populace. The police cannot be everywhere at once nor can they respond in time in all cases. Therefore, an individual has the right to defend themselves in their home with a firearm, a baseball bat or a kitchen knife.

Comparing self defense to roving bands of "vigilantes" walking the street dispensing "justice" at their own whim is folly. They are not the same thing by far.

 
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40. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 09:30 deadgoon
 
Typical neanderthal thinking, if one amendment is dated then they all are eh, moron.

Wow. No need to go any further. Attack the person and not the problem?

 
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39. No subject Apr 22, 2008, 09:03 Mr. Tact
 
Even though I was in the USAF, I always like the look of the F-18s -- which is a Navy plane. B1Bs were fun. Was stationed at McConnell in Wichita while they were there. Though they didn't do it often, the night time touch and gos were awesome!  
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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38. No subject Apr 22, 2008, 09:00 Mr. Tact
 
Anyone who thinks banning guns period, will result in criminals not having guns, is living in a dream world. Think about all the things that are clearly illegal that permeate our culture -- drugs for instance. While I have never owned, and probably never will own any kind of gun (rifle, shotgun, or handgun) I don't particularly think that banning them will solve any problems.

As already mentioned, successful enforcement of existing laws would probably get us better results -- and probably a need for more prisons...
 
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37. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 07:58 Enahs
 
It is a long term commitment, decades even

So your solution is to just spend decades on a project, decades on something that is a symptom of the problem and not the cause.

Are you saying guns make people evil? If I gave you a gun, you would go kill somebody? That you have no self control? Have no understanding of responsibility, respect, and compassion for a fellow human being?


Your solution is to spend many many years and millions of dollars and not do nothing to address the reason why people are criminals. Which, if you put the same amount of money and effort in to that, you can probably achieve better results.


In essence, your solution. You have a bad hangnail. In stead of getting the hangnail removed and fixing the problem; you just have the finger cut off so the problem is no longer obvious.

That is obviously and extreme comparison, but the point stand. Treating the SYMPTOMS of a problem and not the CAUSE of the problem is an exercise in futility.

Improve the education system and economy. Tech people not to idolize idiots and whores on TV and movies and music, etc (I can still watch that for entertainment, and not strive to be a idiot like I see). Teach children responsibility and respect.

If we had less crime you would give a shit about gun control laws. Just like those states without a lot of crime have not wasted their time on passing gun control laws. It is not a problem so why should they care about it?






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This comment was edited on Apr 22, 08:03.
 
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36. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 01:58 PHJF
 
As a person who carries a handgun 99.9% of the time. I 100% agree with you. I carry for the sole purpose of self defense. I carry to kill someone who has the INTENTION of hurting me and mine (or someone else).

And there's the problem: you aren't supposed to have the responsibility, the police are. Of course then you have the problem of poorly funded and trained police forces in any given number of cities, but that's besides the point. You're supposed to feel protected by your police force. If you don't, the solution isn't to go dispensing vigilante justice with your personal sidearm, it's to reform the police department.
 
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35. Re: No subject Apr 22, 2008, 00:03 Yosemite Sam
 
ease prison populations

I dont think anyone convicted of a non-violent crime should go to jail. How does paying to keep some dickhead housed and fed repay society? People convicted of non-violent crimes should have to repay society by working their asses off. People convicted of violent crimes should never get out, any violent crime, unless of course they prove themselves worthy of a second chance.

punishment for possessing a firearm is 10 years in prison

There has to be more, possessing with intent or in a crime. You dont want to throw grandpa in jail becuase he didnt give up his shotgun over the fireplace.

As a person who carries a handgun 99.9% of the time. I 100% agree with you. I carry for the sole purpose of self defense. I carry to kill someone who has the INTENTION of hurting me and mine (or someone else).

OK Tex, I can see there will be no reaching you, maybe you can catch yourself some cattle rustlers and string'em up, if it was good enough for our fore fathers it should be good for us, otherwise everything they did was wrong.







"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
This comment was edited on Apr 22, 00:10.
 
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34. Re: No subject Apr 21, 2008, 23:42 xXBatmanXx
 
A firearm's sole purpose is to kill things. You have no business owning something like that.

As a person who carries a handgun 99.9% of the time. I 100% agree with you. I carry for the sole purpose of self defense. I carry to kill someone who has the INTENTION of hurting me and mine (or someone else).

I carry for the purpose to kill.

I pray to god every night when I go to bed, that I will NEVER have to clear leather.
BUT! I train and prepare as though I would use it everyday.

Playing: GTAIII(PC),Two Worlds(PC), Dead Rising, Lego SW Saga.
This comment was edited on Apr 21, 23:43.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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33. Re: No subject Apr 21, 2008, 23:40 xXBatmanXx
 
I agree, in 1791 the second amendment was there for a reason, a reason that has long since faded into oblivion where the second amendment should have followed.

Honestly, you are saying that they are all BS then. can't have 1 and not the other....sorry.

Playing: GTAIII(PC),Two Worlds(PC), Dead Rising, Lego SW Saga.
 
Avatar 10714
 
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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32. Re: No subject Apr 21, 2008, 23:31 PHJF
 
Step 1: Legalize marijuana to ease prison populations

Step 2: Escalate criminalization of firearms possession.

If the punishment for possessing a firearm is 10 years in prison, are gangbangers really going to be so eager? This isn't the frontier, nobody needs a gun to survive anymore. A firearm's sole purpose is to kill things. You have no business owning something like that.
 
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31. Re: No subject Apr 21, 2008, 22:58 Yosemite Sam
 
What kind of fairy tell world do you live in?

I dont live in a fairy tale, I fully understand the implications of banning guns in the US. You are correct, only honest people will comply and the criminals will keep their guns, anyone who says otherwise 'is' living in a dream world. It is a long term commitment, decades even, the bad guys wont give up their guns but they will have them confiscated, if you do not continue to put guns into circulation then every year there will be less and less guns until in the end you have achived no supply. Or you can keep the statis quo and just keep on putting more and more and more guns into circulation and live the wild west dream, whos the fastest draw lives, everyone eyeballing everyone else, living the fear and paranoia.

The states with the most relaxed gun laws have the lowest crime rate. The state with the most strict gun laws have the highest crime rate. Those states with the most strict gun laws have those guns laws because of the high crime-rate, and it is not helping anything. Surprise. People willing to commit crimes are, shockingly, willing to illegally own a gun. Stop the presses!

I know, I agree, little piss ass laws that do nothing, why ban a gun in location A when crook just goes to location B and brings the gun to location A, friken stupid, it has to be everywhere or nowhere, theres no middle ground with this issue, everyone does it or its useless.

EDIT um by 'everyone' in that last line there I mean everywhere, as in all states have to do it... ya got so many damn guns that there spilling over the border, they just suck man, guns are made to kill, just friken give it up already.



"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

This comment was edited on Apr 21, 23:38.
 
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