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5.56mm Full Metal Jacket Mod

Listen up Private Joker, this forum thread announces the release of version 0.95 of the 5.56mm Full Metal Jacket modification for DOOM 3. Here's what they say sets this mod apart: "FMJ is one of the very few multiplayer online shooters that provides absolute precise damage and ballistics calculations. Every bullet fired in FMJ is actually rendered as a single 3d bullet object that travels through the virtual space being affected by physical parameters such as gravity. Furthermore FMJ makes use of Doom3's introduced per-poly-hit-detection-system which is superior in any thinkable way compared to the system used in common 3d shooters (hitboxes). FMJ makes use of the 'unified light and shadowing' concept to the fullest and renounces faking or skipping features."

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24. Re: ... Mar 10, 2008, 01:20 Shadowcat
 
The potential of per-pixel hit detection is even more exciting. You could shoot a very heavily armored opponent in a specific spot and then continue shooting that same spot
Per-texel, perchance? Per-pixel would be fairly meaningless (at the extreme case, your opponent is rendered as one pixel).

 
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23. Re: ... Mar 9, 2008, 21:34 Jerykk
 
Didn't Soldier of Fortune prove you don't need per-poly in order to do damage models like blowing off limbs? Crude considering how old the game is, but certainly psosible.

SoF proved that you could have location-specific damage models without per-poly hit detection. However, it was limited to general regions of the body. Legs, arms, head, nuts, etc. I'm talking very specific locational damage, like nose, ears, fingers, eyes, etc.

The potential of per-pixel hit detection is even more exciting. You could shoot a very heavily armored opponent in a specific spot and then continue shooting that same spot, penetrating the armor much more quickly than you would if you were shooting at disparate spots. Or in melee combat, you could have grazing blows or mortal wounds depending on where you hit and how deep you hit. Piercing someone's heart would kill them instantly whereas slashing their eye would only hinder their vision.

The more precise the hit detection, the more depth you can add to damage models and combat in general.

 
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22. Re: ... Mar 9, 2008, 18:30 sponge
 
And per-poly hit detection does have the potential to offer infinitely more detailed damage models.[q

Didn't Soldier of Fortune prove you don't need per-poly in order to do damage models like blowing off limbs? Crude considering how old the game is, but certainly psosible.

 
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21. Re: ... Mar 9, 2008, 18:27 sponge
 
To be honest, I think the per-poly thing in DOOM 3 was just to make 4 player death match seem more interesting.

I don't believe the engine directly supported it. In Q4, cylindrical hitboxes were used, and in ET:QW a combination of both.

 
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20. Re: ... Mar 9, 2008, 17:02 Jerykk
 
Netcode has more of an impact than hitboxes/per-poly detection.

Again, I'm not referring to hit detection in multiplayer games only. And per-poly hit detection does have the potential to offer infinitely more detailed damage models. The only problem is that developers are too lazy to even implement basic damage models as it is.

 
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19. Re: ... Mar 9, 2008, 16:10 Aero
 
To be honest, I think the per-poly thing in DOOM 3 was just to make 4 player death match seem more interesting.

It probably does, too.

Also, if you recall, games used to advertise per-pixel hit detection. Which is better?

 
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18. ... Mar 9, 2008, 11:36 theyarecomingforyou
 
When I play TF2 I shoot people and they die. When I miss people they don't. Netcode has more of an impact than hitboxes/per-poly detection. So unless per-poly offers damage models that go beyond the current system I see little to no benefit from it.

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17. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 04:26 Lactose The Intolerant
 
Shut up you stupid nerds.

 
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16. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 03:00 Jerykk
 
But as you said in your next sentence, you both have the same conditions.

Except that's usually not the case in single-player games. In single-player games, enemies often have larger hitboxes than the player. Take Gun, for example. The hitboxes were so big that I felt guilty about hitting enemies when I very clearly did not. To me, that feels like cheating.

I think good game design involves not forcing the player to be aware of things that they don't have direct control over.

Except you don't have direct control over the size of your own hitbox. With hitboxes, an enemy can hit you even when they didn't actually hit you.

 
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15. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 01:59 sponge
 
I define cheating as having an unfair advantage over anything, single-player or multiplayer.

But as you said in your next sentence, you both have the same conditions. The conditions are the same if everyone is cylindrical, or per-poly. I wouldn't call that cheating or even unfair.

Actually, you could spread your legs by simply running or jumping.

Heh, but it depends on how it was animated. Besides, there are multiple frames where your legs will be together.

When the day comes we have wiimote type devices strapped to arms and legs, and we can have exact control over movements, I can understand wanting per-poly. But until then, games have to acknowledge that they aren't 100% immersive, and I think good game design involves not forcing the player to be aware of things that they don't have direct control over.

Hell, imagine if any number of modern/near-future combat games were completely realistic-- Americans can shoot around walls with that CornerShot dealie, or similar near-future weapons and kill the other team in hundreds at a time, while you sit in corners wiring dental floss across doorways.

 
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14. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 01:44 Jerykk
 
I believe most people would define cheating as having an advantage over someone else when used in a multiplayer game, not a feature you don't like.

I define cheating as having an unfair advantage over anything, single-player or multiplayer.

I still have to actually be accurate with hit boxes/cylinders, you just don't get cheaped out of a hit due to a completely random factor-- I can't spread my legs apart to dodge bullets, and am completely at the mercy of the animator.

Actually, you could spread your legs by simply running or jumping. The same conditions that make the game harder for you would also apply to opponents/AI so it's not really cheap at all.

You're right, though, realism doesn't necessarily result in fun. However, when it comes to shooters, I'm more of an all or nothing kind of guy. I either want complete realism or completely unrealistic, over-the-top action. I'm not a big fan of pseudorealistic shooters. To each their own, I suppose.

 
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13. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 01:18 Prez
 
Doesn't really sound like that big of a deal to me. As long as the guy goes down when shot in the groin, I don't really care if I hit him in the scrotum or the vas deferens.  
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12. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 01:16 sponge
 
that's cheating

I believe most people would define cheating as having an advantage over someone else when used in a multiplayer game, not a feature you don't like.

Adding realism does not make a game more fun. Especially in games with a random number generator handling spread. I still have to actually be accurate with hit boxes/cylinders, you just don't get cheaped out of a hit due to a completely random factor-- I can't spread my legs apart to dodge bullets, and am completely at the mercy of the animator.

Any developer who can't do a damage model without per-poly should just give up game development. Team Fortress did it 11 years ago. Gamepads don't change a thing, as PC games were more than capable of doing it before and after Doom3, using that as a reason is just PC elitism, certainly before the current wave of consoles, and long before the PC was getting Xbox/PS2 ports.

In terms of other games in addition to Doom3, CSS essentially has per-poly (the amount of blank space is less than any spread in any gun), a couple of generic modern combat shooters from a few years back (something Ops-- like that narrows it down), and a W:ET mod that added as exact hitboxes as possible (models had extra stuff like trenchcoats so you couldn't do per-poly), and a mini-mod for ET:QW that did the same thing, as it's D3 engine. It's just a silly gimmick that can be used as a bullet-point on the back of the box, as most developers realized how it's a bad idea in practice.

 
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11. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 00:34 Jerykk
 
Meh. Missing someone because you shot them in between the legs isn't fun, it's frustrating especially because all it does is make the engine feel like the antilag, netcode, etc is off.

If you shoot someone between the legs, you didn't hit them. You missed. If that counts as a hit, that's cheating, which is why I prefer per-poly hit detection. Forces you to actually be accurate. It also has the potential for realistic damage modeling. Blowing off fingers, ears, noses, etc.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll be seeing much of this anytime soon. Gamepads can't handle the accuracy required by per-poly hit detection.

What shooters have you played that have per-poly hit detection? The only one I've played (or even heard of) is Doom 3.

 
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10. Re: No subject Mar 9, 2008, 00:15 sponge
 
More games need to use per-poly hit detection. Hitboxes suck.

Meh. Missing someone because you shot them in between the legs isn't fun, it's frustrating especially because all it does is make the engine feel like the antilag, netcode, etc is off. It works decently enough in slower games (CS uses skeletal hitboxes, which are reasonably close to per-poly, if I'm not mistaken) but having played a few games on both sides, I'll take a hit cylinder over boxes or per-poly.

 
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9. Re: No subject Mar 8, 2008, 23:49 axed
 
If you want realism modeling, join the Army. I play games for fun. Too many are leaning towards "realism" which defeats the purpose of sitting down and enjoying games to begin with.

not so much. you dont respawn in the army. realism has enough right to exist as much as non-realistic "fun" games. Best games end up being a good balance of both anyways, with exceptions.
 
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8. No subject Mar 8, 2008, 22:33 D4rkKnight
 
so...is it fun?

 
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7. Re: No subject Mar 8, 2008, 20:54 Hump
 
RIGHT ON HUMP... RIGHT ON!

I really am a pontificating douchebag....

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6. Re: No subject Mar 8, 2008, 20:08 MuzixMon
 
RIGHT ON HUMP... RIGHT ON!  
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5. No subject Mar 8, 2008, 19:39 Hump
 
I LOVE these realism type mods!

pffft.

If you want realism modeling, join the Army. I play games for fun. Too many are leaning towards "realism" which defeats the purpose of sitting down and enjoying games to begin with.



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"Both the “left” and the “right” pretend they have the answer, but they are mere flippers on the same thalidomide baby, and the truth is that neither side has a clue."

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