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Piracy versus PC Gaming

Next Generation recaps a GDC talk titled "The Videogame Piracy Problem: Fifteen Men on a Dead Manís Chest" by id Software CEO Todd Hollenshead about the impact of piracy on the game industry. They outline how Mr. Hollenshead says the estimated $3 billion economic loss caused by piracy in 2004 does not include piracy that takes place on the Internet. There is also an article about this talk on Joystiq that focuses on the statement that piracy is a factor in id's embrace of consoles, quoting Todd as saying "Piracy has pushed id as being multiplatform." On a related note, Can PC Gaming Survive in a Console World (thanks Digg) recaps a panel discussion on the topic that brought up a similar point:

Part of the problem is piracy. Big titles get stolen by cyber thieves, and it hurts revenue. "The market," said Capps, "that would buy a $600 video card knows how Bittorrent works."

Does that mean casual games, which exponentially outsell what PC gaming traditionalists think of as A-list titles, will one day rule? Hilleman made a point: casual is a poor choice of words. The average player on EA's Pogo "casual" game network plays "for 24 hours a week. There's nothing casual about that."

There is some light in the PC gaming world. World of Warcraft, for instance, is a massive hit, and the upcoming Spore looks not only creative and different, but promising. The MMO and other social networking games could become the norm for PC gaming, with big-ticket titles growing rarer with each passing year. Johnson added that MMOs are "successful because you can't pirate WoW. You cannot pirate an MMO. Period." Therefore, he said, "game design on the PC is going to bend toward persistence."

View
67. Re: Am i a bad person? Mar 9, 2007, 23:47 Repeat Offender
 
Why is it that the actual dollar amount lost is of significance in deciding whether piracy is acceptable or not. Let's say you make $50,000 a year and someone takes $10 from you. If you knew who took the money would you try and get it back? And if so, why? After all, it only represents 0.02% of your income so why should it bother you?

 
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    Date Subject Author
  1. Mar 9, 19:37 Um yeah... Lesaonar
  2. Mar 9, 19:46  Re: Um yeah... DrEvil
  5. Mar 9, 19:54  Re: Um yeah... dashelj
  6. Mar 9, 20:00   Re: Um yeah... Narf2029
  3. Mar 9, 19:47 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Creston
  4. Mar 9, 19:54  Re: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA moritz-s
  16. Mar 9, 20:52  Re: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA FourPak
  18. Mar 9, 21:04  Re: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yosemite Sam
  7. Mar 9, 20:03 No subject Riley Pizt
  9. Mar 9, 20:09  Re: No subject riggs58
  11. Mar 9, 20:20   Re: No subject Sepharo
  57. Mar 9, 23:18   Re: No subject _allanp_
  10. Mar 9, 20:16  Re: No subject CJ_Parker
  12. Mar 9, 20:22   Re: No subject Sepharo
  13. Mar 9, 20:32    Re: No subject DrEvil
  15. Mar 9, 20:45    Re: No subject CJ_Parker
  160. Mar 10, 11:25     Re: No subject Shai-Tan
  174. Mar 10, 13:17      Re: No subject Fang
  14. Mar 9, 20:36   Re: No subject Riley Pizt
  8. Mar 9, 20:09 No subject csven
  33. Mar 9, 22:07  The real question: MacD
  17. Mar 9, 20:59 No subject Riley Pizt
  20. Mar 9, 21:12  Re: No subject Lorcin
  21. Mar 9, 21:16   Re: No subject Jerykk
  23. Mar 9, 21:21    Re: No subject Lorcin
  26. Mar 9, 21:36     Re: No subject wtf_man
  60. Mar 9, 23:21      Re: No subject Riley Pizt
  206. Mar 10, 15:51       Re: No subject wtf_man
  28. Mar 9, 21:44     Re: No subject Jerykk
  22. Mar 9, 21:20   Re: No subject Bhruic
  37. Mar 9, 22:19   Re: No subject MacD
  24. Mar 9, 21:25  Re: No subject trog
  25. Mar 9, 21:34   Am i a bad person? Efflixi
  29. Mar 9, 21:50    Re: Am i a bad person? Some Dude
  34. Mar 9, 22:14     Re: Am i a bad person? MacD
  36. Mar 9, 22:17      Re: Am i a bad person? Some Dude
  42. Mar 9, 22:29       Re: Am i a bad person? MacD
  44. Mar 9, 22:36        Re: Am i a bad person? Some Dude
  45. Mar 9, 22:36        Re: Am i a bad person? Repeat Offender
  49. Mar 9, 22:53         Re: Am i a bad person? Jerykk
  50. Mar 9, 22:59          Re: Am i a bad person? Some Dude
  64. Mar 9, 23:35           Re: Am i a bad person? Jerykk
>> 67. Mar 9, 23:47            Re: Am i a bad person? Repeat Offender
  70. Mar 9, 23:51             Re: Am i a bad person? Riley Pizt
  53. Mar 9, 23:03          Re: Am i a bad person? Repeat Offender
  61. Mar 9, 23:22           Re: Am i a bad person? Bhruic
  63. Mar 9, 23:32            Re: Am i a bad person? DrEvil
  115. Mar 10, 05:30            Re: Am i a bad person?  cliffski 
  68. Mar 9, 23:47           Re: Am i a bad person? Riley Pizt
  56. Mar 9, 23:17         Re: Am i a bad person? trog
  19. Mar 9, 21:10 No subject xXBatmanXx
  27. Mar 9, 21:43  Re: No subject Jojo BoZley
  31. Mar 9, 21:57   Re: No subject Jerykk
  54. Mar 9, 23:09    Re: No subject Jojo BoZley
  112. Mar 10, 05:23    Re: No subject  cliffski 
  128. Mar 10, 06:21     Re: No subject Riley Pizt
  129. Mar 10, 06:28      Re: No subject  cliffski 
  131. Mar 10, 06:34       Re: No subject Bhruic
  132. Mar 10, 06:37       Re: No subject Riley Pizt
  133. Mar 10, 06:37       Re: No subject Jerykk
  38. Mar 9, 22:19   Re: No subject Repeat Offender
  40. Mar 9, 22:24   Re: No subject D4rkKnight
  76. Mar 10, 00:19    Re: No subject Beamer
  77. Mar 10, 00:22     Re: No subject Beamer
  113. Mar 10, 05:24    Re: No subject  cliffski 
  89. Mar 10, 01:57   Re: No subject Fang
  91. Mar 10, 02:02    Re: No subject Jerykk
  110. Mar 10, 05:21   Re: No subject  cliffski 
  118. Mar 10, 05:38    Re: No subject Jerykk
  119. Mar 10, 05:41     Re: No subject  cliffski 
  127. Mar 10, 06:20     Re: No subject Dwarf_Snowninja
  136. Mar 10, 07:08     Re: No subject toon
  157. Mar 10, 11:03      Re: No subject Smoove
  126. Mar 10, 06:20    Re: No subject Bhruic
  30. Mar 9, 21:52 No subject DangerDog
  32. Mar 9, 22:00  Re: No subject Some Dude
  39. Mar 9, 22:24  Re: No subject MacD
  43. Mar 9, 22:35   Re: No subject Some Dude
  111. Mar 10, 05:22  Re: No subject  cliffski 
  35. Mar 9, 22:15 No subject DangerDog
  41. Mar 9, 22:29 Id, always finding new ways to suck! Acleacius
  104. Mar 10, 03:14  Re: Id, always finding new ways to suck! Novoskaya
  46. Mar 9, 22:37 copyrights? bunnyslipper
  48. Mar 9, 22:45  Re: copyrights? Overflow
  51. Mar 9, 22:59   Re: copyrights? Kosumo
  47. Mar 9, 22:40 No subject Shai-Tan
  52. Mar 9, 23:01 Incorrect yosimba
  55. Mar 9, 23:11 Sure Todd Parallax Abstraction
  58. Mar 9, 23:20  Re: Sure Todd sponge
  59. Mar 9, 23:20  Re: Sure Todd Some Dude
  69. Mar 9, 23:49   Re: Sure Todd Jerykk
  71. Mar 9, 23:54    Re: Sure Todd DrEvil
  73. Mar 10, 00:05     Re: Sure Todd Jerykk
  116. Mar 10, 05:31    Re: Sure Todd  cliffski 
  75. Mar 10, 00:07  Re: Sure Todd Riley Pizt
  114. Mar 10, 05:28  Re: Sure Todd  cliffski 
  130. Mar 10, 06:32   Re: Sure Todd Riley Pizt
  62. Mar 9, 23:28 Sure Todd bunnyslipper
  65. Mar 9, 23:39 Correct me if I'm wrong MMORPGHoD
  66. Mar 9, 23:44 comments Cheese
  72. Mar 9, 23:59 No subject D4rkKnight
  74. Mar 10, 00:07 Piracy versus PC Gaming AutoSear
  78. Mar 10, 00:34 Meh Dreagon
  79. Mar 10, 00:46  Re: Meh Jerykk
  80. Mar 10, 01:15   Re: Meh Dreagon
  152. Mar 10, 10:39  Re: Meh Jojo BoZley
  153. Mar 10, 10:49   Re: Meh Shataan
  155. Mar 10, 10:50   No Subject jam777
  81. Mar 10, 01:16 Pirates=Losers Speedrat
  82. Mar 10, 01:26  Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  84. Mar 10, 01:42   Re: Pirates=Losers Dreagon
  85. Mar 10, 01:47    Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  86. Mar 10, 01:51     Re: Pirates=Losers DrEvil
  87. Mar 10, 01:53      Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  117. Mar 10, 05:36       Re: Pirates=Losers  cliffski 
  88. Mar 10, 01:55     Re: Pirates=Losers Dreagon
  90. Mar 10, 01:58      Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  92. Mar 10, 02:03       Re: Pirates=Losers Dreagon
  93. Mar 10, 02:06        Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  95. Mar 10, 02:14         Re: Pirates=Losers Dreagon
  97. Mar 10, 02:20          Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  99. Mar 10, 02:31           Re: Pirates=Losers Dreagon
  103. Mar 10, 03:13            Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  98. Mar 10, 02:27          Re: Pirates=Losers Speedrat
  100. Mar 10, 02:36           Re: Pirates=Losers anon@24.76
  101. Mar 10, 02:42            Re: Pirates=Losers Beamer
  94. Mar 10, 02:11        Re: Pirates=Losers DrEvil
  96. Mar 10, 02:15         Re: Pirates=Losers Jerykk
  83. Mar 10, 01:27  Re: Pirates=Losers VoodooV
  102. Mar 10, 03:10 MMO's may become the norm.... Toebot
  105. Mar 10, 03:35 Online distribution solutions mOOzilla
  106. Mar 10, 03:47  Re: Online distribution solutions anon@24.76
  107. Mar 10, 04:25  Re: Online distribution solutions Charlie_Six
  109. Mar 10, 04:33   Re: Online distribution solutions Staunch
  120. Mar 10, 05:42    Re: Online distribution solutions Kedyn
  121. Mar 10, 05:46     Re: Online distribution solutions Jerykk
  122. Mar 10, 05:49      Re: Online distribution solutions  cliffski 
  123. Mar 10, 05:53       Re: Online distribution solutions Jerykk
  124. Mar 10, 05:59        Re: Online distribution solutions  cliffski 
  125. Mar 10, 06:02         Re: Online distribution solutions Jerykk
  134. Mar 10, 06:37      Re: Online distribution solutions Kedyn
  135. Mar 10, 06:45       Re: Online distribution solutions Jerykk
  137. Mar 10, 07:50        Re: Online distribution solutions Kedyn
  108. Mar 10, 04:28 No subject Staunch
  138. Mar 10, 08:07 how about a donation system? dudeOne
  139. Mar 10, 08:48  Re: how about a donation system? jienn
  140. Mar 10, 09:16   Re: how about a donation system? MMORPGHoD
  141. Mar 10, 09:38    Hardware dissociation everyone
  158. Mar 10, 11:05    Re: how about a donation system? Beamer
  159. Mar 10, 11:17     Re: how about a donation system? MMORPGHoD
  161. Mar 10, 11:31      Re: how about a donation system? WyldKat
  162. Mar 10, 11:43       Re: how about a donation system? Shai-Tan
  163. Mar 10, 11:44       What bullshit Kobalt
  164. Mar 10, 11:58        Re: What bullshit zirik
  167. Mar 10, 12:16        Re: What bullshit Repeat Offender
  172. Mar 10, 12:43         Re: What bullshit Kobalt
  173. Mar 10, 13:11          Re: What bullshit MMORPGHoD
  175. Mar 10, 13:35           Re: What bullshit Kobalt
  194. Mar 10, 14:37            Re: What bullshit Bhruic
  199. Mar 10, 15:00             Re: What bullshit scorpius
  200. Mar 10, 15:01              Re: What bullshit mOOzilla
  176. Mar 10, 13:39          Re: What bullshit Repeat Offender
  183. Mar 10, 13:56           Re: What bullshit Kobalt
  186. Mar 10, 14:00            Re: What bullshit Repeat Offender
  179. Mar 10, 13:51     Re: how about a donation system? Yifes
  142. Mar 10, 09:52  Re: how about a donation system?  cliffski 
  143. Mar 10, 10:15   Re: how about a donation system? ^mortis^
  144. Mar 10, 10:17 No subject WyldKat
  145. Mar 10, 10:21 Clarification Parallax Abstraction
  147. Mar 10, 10:29  Re: Clarification Shataan
  148. Mar 10, 10:30   Re: Clarification mOOzilla
  146. Mar 10, 10:24 Its the MPAA/RIAA all over again mOOzilla
  149. Mar 10, 10:30  Re: Its the MPAA/RIAA all over again  cliffski 
  150. Mar 10, 10:31   Re: Its the MPAA/RIAA all over again mOOzilla
  151. Mar 10, 10:38    Re: Its the MPAA/RIAA all over again  cliffski 
  154. Mar 10, 10:50 No subject WyldKat
  156. Mar 10, 11:03 Steam MMORPGHoD
  171. Mar 10, 12:32  Re: Steam Bhruic
  165. Mar 10, 12:03 No subject Simulant
  166. Mar 10, 12:11  Re: No subject  cliffski 
  168. Mar 10, 12:18 Last time i checked venomhed
  169. Mar 10, 12:27  Re: Last time i checked zirik
  177. Mar 10, 13:39  Re: Last time i checked Yifes
  178. Mar 10, 13:46   Re: Last time i checked venomhed
  182. Mar 10, 13:56    Re: Last time i checked Yifes
  188. Mar 10, 14:12     Re: Last time i checked venomhed
  189. Mar 10, 14:17      Re: Last time i checked  cliffski 
  193. Mar 10, 14:31      Re: Last time i checked Yifes
  195. Mar 10, 14:41      Re: Last time i checked Sepharo
  198. Mar 10, 14:49       Re: Last time i checked venomhed
  213. Mar 10, 16:50        Re: Last time i checked Sepharo
  208. Mar 10, 16:03       Re: Last time i checked  cliffski 
  298. Mar 11, 22:47      Re: Last time i checked Beamer
  299. Mar 11, 22:52       Re: Last time i checked Beamer
  301. Mar 12, 00:58       Re: Last time i checked venomhed
  305. Mar 12, 10:32        Re: Last time i checked Kedyn
  306. Mar 12, 12:31         Re: Last time i checked Ciredric
  307. Mar 12, 12:51          Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  311. Mar 12, 18:20           Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Creston
  312. Mar 12, 19:55            Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Toxic_Metal
  313. Mar 12, 20:52             Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Bhruic
  314. Mar 12, 21:36              Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Riley Pizt
  315. Mar 13, 02:35               Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  316. Mar 13, 14:25                Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Bhruic
  317. Mar 13, 14:48                 Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  318. Mar 13, 15:54                  Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Bhruic
  319. Mar 13, 16:20                   Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  320. Mar 14, 06:22               Re: Problem with anti piracy measures General Ego
  321. Mar 14, 07:41                Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Toxic_Metal
  327. Mar 14, 17:37                 Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Nighthawk
  328. Mar 14, 18:57                  Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Toxic_Metal
  329. Mar 15, 04:34                   Re: Problem with anti piracy measures General Ego
  330. Mar 15, 09:13                    Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  331. Mar 15, 17:18                     Re: Problem with anti piracy measures [VG]Reagle
  334. Mar 16, 05:37                     Re: Problem with anti piracy measures General Ego
  335. Mar 16, 07:40                      Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  336. Mar 16, 19:40                    Re: Problem with anti piracy measures wtf_man
  337. Mar 17, 09:12                     Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  322. Mar 14, 12:33                Re: Problem with anti piracy measures mOOzilla
  325. Mar 14, 14:57               Re: Problem with anti piracy measures Masa
  214. Mar 10, 17:23    Re: Last time i checked Nighthawk
  227. Mar 10, 20:21     Re: Last time i checked wtf_man
  170. Mar 10, 12:30 Oh give me a break Nighthawk
  180. Mar 10, 13:53 Yifes = ASSHOLE venomhed
  185. Mar 10, 13:58  Re: Yifes = ASSHOLE RTSNut
  181. Mar 10, 13:53 No subject Silicon Avatar
  184. Mar 10, 13:56 No subject [VG]Reagle
  187. Mar 10, 14:03 No subject [VG]Reagle
  191. Mar 10, 14:27  Re: No subject RTSNut
  190. Mar 10, 14:26 No venomhed
  192. Mar 10, 14:29  Re: No Tranj
  196. Mar 10, 14:44   Re: No Bhruic
  202. Mar 10, 15:14    Re: No Tranj
  203. Mar 10, 15:19     Re: No Bhruic
  205. Mar 10, 15:27      Re: No Tranj
  237. Mar 10, 21:24       Re: No [VG]Reagle
  238. Mar 10, 21:30        Re: No sponge
  240. Mar 10, 21:47        Re: No Riley Pizt
  197. Mar 10, 14:46 Nothing venomhed
  201. Mar 10, 15:07 Standardization? venomhed
  204. Mar 10, 15:22 Consoles are like MTV venomhed
  218. Mar 10, 18:28  Re: Consoles are like MTV scorpius
  207. Mar 10, 16:00 "What kind of science book... Term
  219. Mar 10, 19:01  Re: Riley Pizt
  220. Mar 10, 19:42   Re: Repeat Offender
  221. Mar 10, 19:49    Re: Riley Pizt
  225. Mar 10, 20:02     Re: Repeat Offender
  228. Mar 10, 20:30      Re: Riley Pizt
  229. Mar 10, 20:40       Re: Repeat Offender
  230. Mar 10, 20:49        Re: Riley Pizt
  231. Mar 10, 20:53         Re: Repeat Offender
  232. Mar 10, 20:58          Re: Riley Pizt
  233. Mar 10, 21:07           Re: Repeat Offender
  236. Mar 10, 21:21            Re: Riley Pizt
  245. Mar 11, 00:55  Re: Jerykk
  247. Mar 11, 01:42   Re: Some Dude
  250. Mar 11, 03:00    Re: Jerykk
  265. Mar 11, 09:39    Re: Riley Pizt
  249. Mar 11, 03:00   Re:  cliffski 
  251. Mar 11, 03:00    Re: Jerykk
  252. Mar 11, 03:12     Re: CJ_Parker
  253. Mar 11, 03:25      Re: Jerykk
  254. Mar 11, 03:45       Re: CJ_Parker
  256. Mar 11, 04:10        Re: Jerykk
  259. Mar 11, 05:36        Re: Malakai
  267. Mar 11, 10:02         Re: Riley Pizt
  280. Mar 11, 12:04        Re: Riley Pizt
  263. Mar 11, 07:37     Re: Kedyn
  264. Mar 11, 08:49      Re: mOOzilla
  269. Mar 11, 10:15      Re: Riley Pizt
  279. Mar 11, 12:00       Re: Tango
  282. Mar 11, 12:10        Re: Riley Pizt
  266. Mar 11, 09:45    Re: Riley Pizt
  209. Mar 10, 16:14 No subject VoodooV
  210. Mar 10, 16:29  Re: No subject Bhruic
  212. Mar 10, 16:38   Re: No subject VoodooV
  215. Mar 10, 17:28    Re: No subject Bhruic
  216. Mar 10, 17:56     Re: No subject VoodooV
  211. Mar 10, 16:32 No subject VoodooV
  217. Mar 10, 18:18 No subject VoodooV
  222. Mar 10, 19:54 No subject VoodooV
  223. Mar 10, 19:56  Re: No subject Riley Pizt
  224. Mar 10, 19:59 Pirate to Stop the Pirates Morfaine
  226. Mar 10, 20:13  well.... Shataan
  234. Mar 10, 21:09   Re: well.... Yosemite Sam
  239. Mar 10, 21:31    Re: well.... Riley Pizt
  241. Mar 10, 23:14    Re: well.... wtf_man
  242. Mar 11, 00:18     Re: well.... CJ_Parker
  243. Mar 11, 00:31      Re: well.... The Half Elf
  244. Mar 11, 00:38      Re: well.... wtf_man
  246. Mar 11, 01:29       Re: well.... CJ_Parker
  235. Mar 10, 21:21  Re: Pirate to Stop the Pirates scorpius
  248. Mar 11, 03:00 Cost Cutter
  255. Mar 11, 03:55 Oh Wow, I Smell Lies! Icewind
  257. Mar 11, 04:13  Re: Oh Wow, I Smell Lies! Jerykk
  258. Mar 11, 05:17 This is getting old FRAGaLOT
  260. Mar 11, 05:43 No subject FRAGaLOT
  281. Mar 11, 12:05  Re: No subject  cliffski 
  285. Mar 11, 13:28   Re: No subject dudeOne
  287. Mar 11, 13:42    Re: No subject Bhruic
  295. Mar 11, 17:13    Re: No subject  cliffski 
  296. Mar 11, 17:17     Re: No subject mOOzilla
  297. Mar 11, 17:31      Re: No subject wtf_man
  309. Mar 12, 13:56     Re: No subject dudeOne
  286. Mar 11, 13:38   Re: No subject Jerykk
  288. Mar 11, 14:07    Re: No subject nin
  326. Mar 14, 15:34     Re: No subject Tigger
  261. Mar 11, 05:53 Yar! FRAGaLOT
  262. Mar 11, 06:05  Re: Yar! mOOzilla
  268. Mar 11, 10:09   Re: Yar! Riley Pizt
  270. Mar 11, 10:17 go after the snakes head... zirik
  271. Mar 11, 10:41  Re: go after the snakes head... mOOzilla
  272. Mar 11, 10:53   Re: go after the snakes head... Riley Pizt
  273. Mar 11, 10:56    Re: go after the snakes head... mOOzilla
  274. Mar 11, 11:04     Re: go after the snakes head... Riley Pizt
  275. Mar 11, 11:07      Re: go after the snakes head... mOOzilla
  276. Mar 11, 11:19       Re: go after the snakes head... Riley Pizt
  277. Mar 11, 11:41 No subject VoodooV
  278. Mar 11, 11:58  Re: No subject Tango
  283. Mar 11, 12:24   Re: No subject Riley Pizt
  284. Mar 11, 12:36    Re: No subject mOOzilla
  289. Mar 11, 15:11 No subject VoodooV
  290. Mar 11, 16:37  Re: No subject wtf_man
  291. Mar 11, 16:40   Re: No subject mOOzilla
  292. Mar 11, 16:52    Re: No subject wtf_man
  293. Mar 11, 16:55     Re: No subject mOOzilla
  294. Mar 11, 17:12      Re: No subject wtf_man
  300. Mar 12, 00:50 #300 venomhed
  302. Mar 12, 04:31 Argumentitive skills mOOzilla
  303. Mar 12, 07:18  Re: Argumentitive skills Beamer
  304. Mar 12, 09:34   Re: Argumentitive skills Riley Pizt
  308. Mar 12, 12:58    Re: Argumentitive skills Beamer
  310. Mar 12, 17:03 No subject [VG]Reagle
  323. Mar 14, 13:07 OMG Tigger
  324. Mar 14, 13:27  Re: OMG mOOzilla
  332. Mar 15, 17:58 Always bet on Greed! Toxic_Metal
  333. Mar 16, 02:34 Cattle herd effect mOOzilla


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