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Game & Mod Development

Torque Game Builder offers a development kit for games that will run on PC, OSX, and XBox360. Word is: "You pay no royalties, EVER, with our ground-breaking royalty free licenses. You can publish your game ANYWHERE you want. It's your game, you make the decisions."

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55. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 27, 2006, 18:07 sponge
 
But it's not even possible that it can be because Assley is wrong. NEVER.

That is inconceivable, irrational, imperceptiple, and other big words I use in lieu of actual arguments!

 
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54. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 26, 2006, 22:49 Riley Pizt
 
it will serve you well to use manners with people...you do it in a very derogotory manner
It would serve you well to actually heed your own advice before you start dispensing it. See http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=68286&id=327315&boardid=1&view=threads if your posts in this thread aren't enough to convince you.

I don't have a problem with many of the ideas you are trying to convey, but you do it in a very derogotory manner, no matter how 'right' they are. Sometimes it seems like a very logical portrayal of ideas, yet you seem to persist with some sort of absolute conviction and attack.
I only persist and get derogatory when I am attacked. I never sling the first personal insult. And, this thread is a good example of that. I made my typical brief initial post with my stated opinion in it, and in came the partisans who jumped all over me for criticizing their favorite toy. Notice how Dr. Evil slings personal insults at me, e.g. "retard," "thick skull," while I only insult his exaggerations and generalizations, e.g. "untouchable value." The people on this forum who hate me do so simply because they have irrational loyalty to certain companies and products and can't stand for them to be criticized especially so convincingly.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 22:51.
 
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53. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 26, 2006, 21:51 CreamyBlood
 
Tell the boy to start building his game with FPSCreator. He can build an entire, distributable game with it...

Thank you for the advice, I'll go with it.

Despite your insult, I will help you anyway (as you certainly need it).I get the impression that you are an imbecile, and anyone who would come to you for advice is an even bigger imbecile.

Despite the fact that you're 'Pizt Riled Off' (or whatever it is you think you are) , it will serve you well to use manners with people. Winning an argument, forcing your views and feeling smart about yourself does nothing in real life.

For example, I've already read TEN MILLION of your posts that will not concede any fact or opinion but your own. Therefore, the smarmy attitude towards you.

One day, when you grow up and get old you'll understand. I don't have a problem with many of the ideas you are trying to convey, but you do it in a very derogotory manner, no matter how 'right' they are. Sometimes it seems like a very logical portrayal of ideas, yet you seem to persist with some sort of absolute conviction and attack. And that's you're style and the way you want to go through life.

Loosen up a bit, go get a beer and get laid. At least give your cat away to the humane society.

Perhaps then people might take you with more than a grain.

But again, I think the fpscreator thing is a good thing for a kid. Teaching them C++ might be the next step. (if their into it).

You, on the other hand, need to find out where the salt is.

edit

And honestly, if that's how you get your jollies, then go for it. Have fun.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 22:10.
 
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52. Re: The real dumbass is you. Jun 26, 2006, 09:02 Riley Pizt
 
so go make your uber game with Ogre 3d. We'll be waiting on a Duke Nukem time scale.
I have no plans to make a game with it, but since you are that interested, I might have to change my mind.

Why are you so emotional over GG pricing with all these other supposed better, cheaper engines on the market?
First, why do you change the subject? Don't bother answering because you and I both know it's because I am right.

Second, I am not emotional over it. Garage Games can charge whatever it wants, but the lack of many independent games made with Torque in its relatively long existence proves my point that is is too expensive for what it delivers. Almost all independent developers use other solutions. I simply vigorously defend my positions. I had intended to only post my initial reply below and have it stand. I didn't expect the Garage Game toadies to get all up in arms over it.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 12:38.
 
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51. Re: The real dumbass is you. Jun 26, 2006, 06:48 Beaner
 
so go make your uber game with Ogre 3d. We'll be waiting on a Duke Nukem time scale. Why are you so emotional over GG pricing with all these other supposed better, cheaper engines on the market?

 
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50. The real dumbass is you. Jun 24, 2006, 19:43 Riley Pizt
 
Hey dumbasses, you don't have to pay for a commercial license unless your company makes more than $500,000 a year.
Actually it is you who is the dumbass. According to http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=1811 , the "Indie Game License is intended for very small, independent companies (under $250,000 in revenue) that are funding their own development and are making games...Your company cannot have annual revenue of greater than $250,000 from any source, you cannot have your game funded by a large company, and you must be making games. TGE Indie Licenses are non-transferable and can only be owned by individuals."

Therefore, companies and groups are not be eligible for the indie license due to the revenue restrictions and the fact that the license cannot be owned by the company or group.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 12:39.
 
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49. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 24, 2006, 19:15 Riley Pizt
 
So I'll ask Rilely as I get the impression that he's much more like a twelve year old
I get the impression that you are an imbecile, and anyone who would come to you for advice is an even bigger imbecile.

Despite your insult, I will help you anyway (as you certainly need it). Tell the boy to start building his game with FPSCreator. He can build an entire, distributable game with it using custom models, maps, and other media assets in addition to the included ones, and it can even have basic multiplayer features. If he finds that some aspect of FPSCreator is limiting what he wants his game to do, he can then purchase DarkBasic Pro and one extension pack and download the entire source code to FPSCreator (which is written in DarkBasic). With that he can program whatever changes or additions he needs to the FPSCreator source code and recompile it so that it will be useable for his game.

FPSCreator plus DarkBasic Pro is a great way to build a real, distributable FPS game relatively quickly and easily. How professional looking and sophisticated it is only depends on how much talent you have (or can buy) and how much work you put into it.

This comment was edited on Jun 24, 19:51.
 
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48. No subject Jun 24, 2006, 15:48 Bus Driver
 
Hey dumbasses, you don't have to pay for a commercial license unless your company makes more than $500,000 a year.

And yeah, you get all the same benefits, it's royalty free, etc. You have to put a GG splash screen on your game startup, but you can pay for commercial licence if you don't want to do that...


This comment was edited on Jun 24, 16:08.
 
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47. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 24, 2006, 14:00 CreamyBlood
 
This has been a great discussion to a point. My friends 12 year old wants to make a Doom-like game for a class *next Year* (at least he's thinking ahead).

I know what it takes just to make a custom map for a modern game and suggested doing that to start before taking on the daunting task of creating an ambitious First Person Shooter from scratch.

I also suggested playing with the fpscreator.com to start.

I would ask you, Dr. Evil as you're obviously an actual programmer that has fucked around with a bunch of these tools and are most likely an adult.

So I'll ask Rilely as I get the impression that he's much more like a twelve year old and knows how to read documentation.

Riley, what's a good start for a kid?


This comment was edited on Jun 24, 14:13.
 
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46. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 23:07 Riley Pizt
 
Right, and only a retard would include a model editor into that 'everything'. Those are never included in a game engine license, indie or otherwise.
I am sure the creators of 3D Gamestudio would be gratified to know you think they are retarded. I'd say that claiming something is "never included" when it is included in at least that one case is retarded.

I can't speak for them all, but the maya and max exporters work fine.
Works fine with which versions of Maya and Max? The latest? That was my question. And, is the source code to those plug-ins available?

$1500 for the commercial licenses of TSE. That'd come out to about 2 weeks of pay for an entry level programmer. No programmer in existance could create even half of what Torque offers in that amount of time.
What you consistently and conveniently overlook is that there are more than just those two possibilities of use TSE or do it yourself.

no lip syncing, ragdoll, etc.. are NOT necessities to the types of games that indies make no matter how many times you repeat it).
Given the type of games TSE is designed for and its higher price, it certainly should have those features.

Conspiracy theorists at work?
There's no conspiracy theory about it. It is simply basic business. Since Garage Games charges more for higher sales volume then it must have some mechanism in its license or contract to determine and verify what the sales for each of its licensees is. No real business would just put blind trust in the licensee to accurately self-report those figures. It would need to be contractually specified especially since many companies are not public and don't have to disclose their financial information.

I'd imagine they would know how much you sell cuz part of the indie license I believe is that you sell through GG.
Well that's even one more reason for independent developers not to use Torque because it makes Torque even more expensive since Garage Games will get a cut of the sales.

Of course you haven't. Because it would be illegal for people to actively post resources and addons outside of the member section of the GG site, which you obviously aren't a member of.
Well Garage Games should make a read-only or some type of abridged version of those resources for the public because without it prospective customers get the wrong impression of that aspect of the support of its products.

Torque is untouchable for a small developer that wants to do a first person shooter game.
And it's still bullshit as I wrote below. It's not an untouchable value even for an FPS game. I am not going to repeat all the reasons why again so I'll simply say "show me the games." If it is so untouchable and it has been around for five years, where are all of the independent FPS games built on Torque? I can name more built with other engines than Torque and that includes free games.

A newbie to Torque will have something up and running long before any seasoned developer of anything you mentioned could have something going.
That is simply ridiculous. I have seen even teenagers put decent playable demos together with DarkBasic Pro and 3D Gamestudio in a few weeks or less.

In game development, time is money. $1500 is insignificant, even to an indie development team,
NO, it isn't! You seem to think that every independently created game is made by a professional team who is being bankrolled. It isn't, and $1500 is a lot of money to a guy working out of his bedroom or home office. I am talking about developers like the guy who made the relatively successful Star Wraith series of games using a single copy of DarkBASIC (http://starwraith3dgames.home.att.net/go.htm). Ask him if he would rather have spent $1500 on his engine instead of $100 or if having to spend $1500 would have kept him from creating his first game.

Torque is not a competitor to Source, Doom3, CryEngine, etc... and neither is any of the free or cheaper alternatives.
No, but when your competitors have now commonplace features like hardware shader support and advanced lighting, your product should have it included as well instead of only selling it as an expensive addon for more than the price of the base product.

We really need to stop wasting time arguing this because my opinion of Torque's value is not going to change unless its price is lowered or its included features are substantially raised from what they are now.

This comment was edited on Jun 24, 21:11.
 
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45. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 21:04 DrEvil
 
3D Gamestudio has a modeling application in it. Of course, you can use external applications as well. It was you who claimed Torque had "everything" not me.

Right, and only a retard would include a model editor into that 'everything'. Those are never included in a game engine license, indie or otherwise.

Torque used to have few, poor, and outdated plug-ins with no public source code for them. Is that still the case? I don't have access to its CVS to tell for sure since I am not a customer.

I can't speak for them all, but the maya and max exporters work fine. The .dif exporters for TSE suck ass still because the format is going through changes.

Well I am basically arguing against the cost and immaturity of TSE. If TSE were simply offered at the same price as TGE like it should be, it would be a better match for the competition.

$1500 for the commercial licenses of TSE. That'd come out to about 2 weeks of pay for an entry level programmer. No programmer in existance could create even half of what Torque offers in that amount of time. That's why I equate it as a 'good deal'. Torque doesn't have everything that alternatives has, but it certainly has more of the necessities(and no lip syncing, ragdoll, etc.. are NOT necessities to the types of games that indies make no matter how many times you repeat it).

I don't know what the cost of a license is to release a game for XBOX 360, but I doubt that the developers Garage Games is targeting with its Torque Game Creator can afford it. I am also skeptical that many XBOX 360 users are going to buy 2D side-scrollers made with it for their $400 consoles.

From what I've heard xbox arcade games are doing rather well. It's an alternative to the hard core games that are better at getting the less gamers of the households playing something more near their speed.

I would rather not give Garage Games the ability to audit my books to determine what my sales volume is. Other engines don't because they don't set such limits.

Conspiracy theorists at work? I'd imagine they would know how much you sell cuz part of the indie license I believe is that you sell through GG.


I have found relatively few active enhancements for Torque which are free especially compared to other engines (not just Ogre).

Of course you haven't. Because it would be illegal for people to actively post resources and addons outside of the member section of the GG site, which you obviously aren't a member of.

You can blame the reason for it on whatever you wish, but that is the crux of the situation. Torque is NOT the "untouchable" value you think it is.

I have said no such thing. In fact, I've given plenty of downsides to Torque in additions to its strength, to try and get it through your thick skull that it's not a black and white issue, and there are things to consider such as the genre, the scope of the game, the requirements, the team size, budget, etc... Try taking stuff in context. I'll even quote it for you again.

Torque is untouchable for a small developer that wants to do a first person shooter game. For other genres the engine choice may not be such an easy choice, though one could use Torque for any genre with additional work.

It's a pretty simple statement, but since you seem to have had trouble with it I'll expand on it.

Were a developer want to make a first person shooter game, especially one with multiplayer, they would have NO easier time doing so than with Torque. That's what it was built for, that's what it's best at. A newbie to Torque will have something up and running long before any seasoned developer of anything you mentioned could have something going. In game development, time is money. $1500 is insignificant, even to an indie development team, considering that it is only enough for a 2 week paycheck at below average salary. That's the whole point of this whole discussion, and the only point, of myself, and several other Torque supporters on here. If development time were not an issue, I'd be right there bashing Torque with you, because I'd much rather prefer to make shit in native c++ and my own scripting language of choice than mess with Torques shit scripting and slow development.

I disagree. One game may not need everything, but expectations among consumers are such that if you don't have certain features, you are wasting your time because consumers won't buy your game.

Not in the casual game/indie market is isn't. It's a completely different ball game compared to commercial AAA titles. Casual games are almost always lower requirements, simpler, easier art, smaller team, that advanced shit you keep throwing out there is a non issue to the target market of Torque. Torque is not a competitor to Source, Doom3, CryEngine, etc... and neither is any of the free or cheaper alternatives.

 
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44. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 19:33 Riley Pizt
 
And modelling tools? I've yet to see ANY engine come with modelling tools other than exporters to the proprietary formats.
3D Gamestudio has a modeling application in it. Of course, you can use external applications as well. It was you who claimed Torque had "everything" not me.

Torque is no different. It has exporters for Maya, Max, blender, milkshape, hammer, quark, etc...
Torque used to have few, poor, and outdated plug-ins with no public source code for them. Is that still the case? I don't have access to its CVS to tell for sure since I am not a customer.

And for the record, I refer to TSE more than TGE, as it is the only comparable option to modern games. TGE is far too dated by itself. If TGE were the only option I wouldn't be here defending it.
Well I am basically arguing against the cost and immaturity of TSE. If TSE were simply offered at the same price as TGE like it should be, it would be a better match for the competition.

Also, for cross platform I refer mostly to being relatively ready to go for XBox360, which is an attractive and available option for indies with xbox arcade and the like. Xbox arcade developers don't need the $10k dev kits like full blown games do.
I don't know what the cost of a license is to release a game for XBOX 360, but I doubt that the developers Garage Games is targeting with its Torque Game Creator can afford it. I am also skeptical that many XBOX 360 users are going to buy 2D side-scrollers made with it for their $400 consoles.

Right, so when your project hits the large sales volume(which likely few indies will), then you should easily be able to afford the insignificant commercial license cost.
I would rather not give Garage Games the ability to audit my books to determine what my sales volume is. Other engines don't because they don't set such limits.

In the resources section of the garage games site, there are thousands and thousands of resources, many times more than you'll find for Ogre. Anything from script snippets to small features, to integration guides for ODE, tutorials for MMO game framworks, engine enhancements, etc...
I have found relatively few active enhancements for Torque which are free especially compared to other engines (not just Ogre).

True. As I mentioned, IMO this has to do with their slow pace and script dependency.
You can blame the reason for it on whatever you wish, but that is the crux of the situation. Torque is NOT the "untouchable" value you think it is.

Most indie games don't need full blown physics systems, nor lip syncing, rag doll, or the other stuff you mentioned. Needing all that stuff implies a game of a much greater scope than an indie game.
I disagree. One game may not need everything, but expectations among consumers are such that if you don't have certain features, you are wasting your time because consumers won't buy your game.

This comment was edited on Jun 23, 19:37.
 
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43. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 17:04 DrEvil
 
Torque doesn't have everything. Standard TGE doesn't include hardware shader support, a lipsync library, ragdoll physics, advanced lighting, or modeling tools. It also does not include frameworks for game types other than FPS and racing.

True, but none of that is a necessary for an indie game. How many indie games are even remotely as complex as AAA games and use such tech? Very few. And Ogre certainly doesn't include genre specific frameworks, or even any feature complete generic frameworks, nor do the few others I've looked at(though I haven't looked at them all). And modelling tools? I've yet to see ANY engine come with modelling tools other than exporters to the proprietary formats. Torque is no different. It has exporters for Maya, Max, blender, milkshape, hammer, quark, etc... Just as Ogre and any other engine would.

And for the record, I refer to TSE more than TGE, as it is the only comparable option to modern games. TGE is far too dated by itself. If TGE were the only option I wouldn't be here defending it.

Also, for cross platform I refer mostly to being relatively ready to go for XBox360, which is an attractive and available option for indies with xbox arcade and the like. Xbox arcade developers don't need the $10k dev kits like full blown games do.

Except that there are free frameworks and example game code to fill in the gaps depending of course on what type of game you are making.

Ogre3d is far from plugging community components together and having a game playable. Real game dev is nowhere near that simple, especially when plugging together various open source community contributions.

The licensing terms aren't excellent because the indie license is still restricted by sales volume whereas other engines in the same price range and lower have no such restrictions.

Right, so when your project hits the large sales volume(which likely few indies will), then you should easily be able to afford the insignificant commercial license cost.

Garage Games community seems "shitty" to me compared to those of the other engines I mentioned when you compare the amount of free example code, assets, and users using the product. Its support is also subpar as exemplified by its slow development of its products.

Of course it would, because you don't know what you're talking about. In the resources section of the garage games site, there are thousands and thousands of resources, many times more than you'll find for Ogre. Anything from script snippets to small features, to integration guides for ODE, tutorials for MMO game framworks, engine enhancements, etc...

If it were such a great value and so easy to develop with, there would be more finished indie games which use it than there are in its relatively long history.

True. As I mentioned, IMO this has to do with their slow pace and script dependency.

ODE is LGPL, and it has been used in several commercial games. Sure if you want to pay more you can, but that is true for Torque as well because even TSE does not come with such a physics system.

That's why I mentioned ODE and Tokamak in my last post. They are decent physics engines, and available for commercial projects. As mentioned, ODE could be integrated into Torque via 3rd party resource just as Ogre and many other engines do. Few actually come with this stuff integrated, and for those that do there is likely other areas that it lacks. It depends on what the team wants to do. Alot of people don't want to be restricted by torques scripting(like me). Most indie games don't need full blown physics systems, nor lip syncing, rag doll, or the other stuff you mentioned. Needing all that stuff implies a game of a much greater scope than an indie game.

 
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42. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 13:57 Riley Pizt
 
but what it has and what makes it a good product is that it has everything.
Torque doesn't have everything. Standard TGE doesn't include hardware shader support, a lipsync library, ragdoll physics, advanced lighting, or modeling tools. It also does not include frameworks for game types other than FPS and racing.

excellent licensing terms
The licensing terms aren't excellent because the indie license is still restricted by sales volume whereas other engines in the same price range and lower have no such restrictions.

In the end the quality of the visuals in the game depends much more on the art and shaders than it does the engine.
I don't disagree, but TGE has no hardware shaders and TSE costs too much for them when other engines have added them at no or less charge.

Hardware shaders(wtf u talking about no hardware shaders?)
I was referring to TGE at that time.

Just as it's annoying that Ogre3d needs so much additional low level work to get a game up and running.
Except that there are free frameworks and example game code to fill in the gaps depending of course on what type of game you are making.

Just as it's annoying that some of the other ones you mentioned aren't cross platform
For all of the noise about cross-platform support, the markets for Linux and even Macintosh games are relatively miniscule. I personally would love to dump Windows for Linux but its game selection simple pales in comparison and even in cases where a version of the game is available significant features and tools may be missing, e.g. UT2004.

have shitty communities, have shitty support.
Garage Games community seems "shitty" to me compared to those of the other engines I mentioned when you compare the amount of free example code, assets, and users using the product. Its support is also subpar as exemplified by its slow development of its products.

It's more 'complete' though than most other options, and $100(TGE) + $150(TSE) is a very reasonable cost for the indie license to get an indy the opportunity to make some money quickly and relatively easily,
If it were such a great value and so easy to develop with, there would be more finished indie games which use it than there are in its relatively long history.

Even $495(TGE) + $995(TSE) for the commercial license is a very good deal compared to licensing any single piece of middleware out there.
Sure, but those aren't the only two possibilities as I have shown.

You keep mentioning that Ogre3d has community addons for commercial physics systems, such as novodex, newton, etc... News flash, you cannot use them in a commercial product with out paying many many thousands of $ in licensing.
ODE is LGPL, and it has been used in several commercial games. Sure if you want to pay more you can, but that is true for Torque as well because even TSE does not come with such a physics system.

This comment was edited on Jun 23, 15:04.
 
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41. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 12:59 DrEvil
 
Wrong, it takes significant time to build a game/game engine, even from the excellent start that Ogre3d provides. It's true torque doesn't have the best in any area(except the net code imo), but what it has and what makes it a good product is that it has everything. TSE brings the graphics pretty much up to date, even if its coming rather slowly. The network system is very good, swept collision, decent gui system, excellent licensing terms. I worked with the Sector13 team for a while, in fact I was part of the switch from a proprietary engine to an Ogre3d one, and prior to that worked on a several month student project where we used Ogre3d to build a multiplayer RPG with several other middleware products, such as openal, replicanet, mysql, etc... In the end the quality of the visuals in the game depends much more on the art and shaders than it does the engine. The fact that Torque has all you need for an indie game is very attractive, so you can get right to building the game or expanding the existing systems, rather than either integrating the community addons from Ogre3d, or rolling your own. Most of the community addons for physics and such are 2-4 years old by now.

IMO what turns alot of people off Torque(other than hobbyists it seems) is its heavy dependence on Torque Script for everything, along with it's very slow integration of standard engine features. Essentially the entire game and game logic is written in torque script, and it's not nearly as fun or clean as unreal script for example. As a c++ programmer I cringe at the idea of writing everthing in a proprietary language. As an example, nobody in their right mind would write an entire game in lua either. Even so, I've used TGE, and later TSE to develop prototypes for several games, and they were playable in significantly less time than other projects using Ogre and Irrilict(sp?). They would do good to hurry it up with TSE if they want it to be a useful product. For now though it's got pretty good support for outdoor/indoor FPS games, especially ones using large terrain. Hardware shaders(wtf u talking about no hardware shaders?) Networking out of the box, decent mission editor, gui editor, scripting(although too dependent)

Of course it's not perfect.
It's annoying that there is not yet real time lights/shadows.
It's annoying that you have to use hammer/quark/3dgame studio/etc to make the 'interiors' because it uses a bsp-like format.
It's annoying that the .map to .dif converter(for tse) is a buggy piece of shit on any reasonably complex interiors.
Torque Script - bleh

Just as it's annoying that Ogre3d needs so much additional low level work to get a game up and running.

Just as it's annoying that some of the other ones you mentioned aren't cross platform, have shitty communities, have shitty support.

Perhaps one of the best part of Torque is the excellent community and support from the developers available on the private forums for licensees, something you rarely get on such cheap engine licenses.

I'm not going to argue about it either way. I have my opinions based on direct experience with Torque & Ogre3d. Neither are perfect. It's more 'complete' though than most other options, and $100(TGE) + $150(TSE) is a very reasonable cost for the indie license to get an indy the opportunity to make some money quickly and relatively easily, and the potential to build something for Xbox 360 for xbox arcade. Even $495(TGE) + $995(TSE) for the commercial license is a very good deal compared to licensing any single piece of middleware out there.

You keep mentioning that Ogre3d has community addons for commercial physics systems, such as novodex, newton, etc... News flash, you cannot use them in a commercial product with out paying many many thousands of $ in licensing. Most of them have a free for non commercial use licensing. That leaves you with ODE, Tokamak, maybe a few other weak ones, available for a commercial product without huge cost. You certainly won't be using havok in Ogre3d without paying huge sums.

 
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40. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 11:47 Riley Pizt
 
Riley do you realize how much time it would take to build in everything needed to make a game built, especially a networked game "using ogre 3d".
Yes. Judging from what has been made with Ogre and what resources are available for it, not that long. If Torque development were as easy or as inexpensive as you think, there sure as hell would be more finished games made with it in the five years of its existance than the handful that there are.


 
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39. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 06:25 Beaner
 
Riley do you realize how much time it would take to build in everything needed to make a game built, especially a networked game "using ogre 3d".

TGE and TSE will have thse feature complete. Also, one thing I will agree on is that Torque (TGE) graphics can look old and dated. One thing Garage Games hasnt done well is promote the "graphical abilities" of their engines through pics, demo's etc which is what gets the wow factor from the regular joe. They usually emphasis the tech because thats what developers are interested in.

With TSE and their new slate of products Im sure that is going to change. Because some need pretty pictures to be convinced, Im sure GG will be putting out some amazing looking demo's and pics in the future. Im already impressed with some of the current dev projects using the current version of TSE.

This comment was edited on Jun 23, 06:27.
 
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38. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 01:23 Riley Pizt
 
The way you speak of the Torque network code tells me you really don't much about the actual mechanics of a game.
Your posts in this thread including this one illustrate to me that it is you who don't understand much about these engines or game development. For example...

You seem not to realise Torque is a platform and Ogre is not.
Ogre refers to itself as a "graphics engine" rather than a game engine because it doesn't natively handle networking, sound, or physics. It does handle rendering, scene and asset management, and basic input handling. Therefore, it IS a good platform on which games can be built, and there are some free frameworks for games built around Ogre. If you want to see some good examples of games and projects built with Ogre checkout http://www.ogre3d.org/index.php?set_albumName=album07&option=com_gallery&Itemid=55&include=view_album.php. The games Pacific Storm and Sector 13 look pretty promising. It is certainly more impressive than what I have seen made with the standard version of Torque.

And Darkbasic?
DarkBasic Pro is a very versatile development tool. You can use it to build anything from a simple command-line program to a sophisticated 3D game. It is relatively easy to develop with, and there are some good example frameworks available for it especially for FPS games. It also has very good media asset support, e.g. it will load all three types of Quake engine maps and models, and there are many first and third-party addons and libraries for it. You can even get an SDK version of it if you would rather program its engine in C++ instead of its BASIC language. The license on it is totally royalty free regardless of sales volume (unlike Torque's indie license). The price is decent even with some of the addons which you really need unless you can write your own libraries. The two main things I don't like about it are the fact that some of the addon libraries cost extra and aren't incorporated into the base product, and I don't like the copy-protection system on it (although it certainly could be worse).

In summary, Torque is not a bad engine, but it's five years old, and it's not the bargain to indie developers it was back in 2002 when Garage Games started selling it. The market is much more competitive now, and other products have surpassed it in features and value. The Torque Shader replacement renderer (TSE) looks promising, but it's still not in a release state yet, and judging from its feature list, even if it were finished, it is overpriced for what it delivers. The new Torque Game Creator doesn't look like a bad product, but since it is for 2D game development, it too is overpriced for what it delivers if your target market is PC users.

This comment was edited on Jun 23, 01:59.
 
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37. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 00:57 Riley Pizt
 
Name me one free engine with all those features.
QFusion, DarkPlaces, Irrlicht, and CrystalSpace are all comparable or better than Torque and are free (though QFusion and DarkPlaces are GPL). All four support hardware shaders while Torque does not.

And I have to ask, Riley; have you ever done something with one of those engines you talk about?
Yes, however I needn't to see ample evidence that illustrates my points. Just read the documentation for these engines and play with demos made from them.

This comment was edited on Jun 23, 01:44.
 
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36. Re: Torque is good stuff Jun 23, 2006, 00:46 Riley Pizt
 
I think you understimate the time it takes for changes like that to be fully taken up by the industry.
I think you overestimate Garage Games' development efforts. Judging from its pace so far, DirectX 10 will be in vogue by the time that TSE is completed.


 
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