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94.
 
Re: X3 Guide
Nov 17, 2005, 19:43
94.
Re: X3 Guide Nov 17, 2005, 19:43
Nov 17, 2005, 19:43
 
A GeForce 4 Ti4400 is totally unsuitable for this game. I've got it running at 1024x768 with shaders and textures set to low, and it's still kinda choppy. I've got an AMD Athlon64 3200+ and 1 gig of RAM, BTW.

If you have the money, get a 6600GT, and your performance will skyrocket. Your processor and ram are plenty to run the game.

I have to remember there's a notepad in the game. I've got a hold full of textiles that I seem to have bought "high" and everyone is paying "low" I'm glad I didn't name my character "Jim Cramer" because at this point I'm certainly not making "Mad Money" but it's only my first time out.

Buy a "Best Buy Locator" and "Best Sell Locator" in Teladi equipment docks, they will tell you when a price is below average or above average, and this makes buying and selling a lot easier

Creston

Alright Creston, what about a super fast ship with decent shields?

Erm...The Mamba Raider?
Seriously, there is no M3 that will go faster than the Mamba Raider. And if you go M4 or M5, your shield rating is going to drop.
I know it sucks...

I'm working on a script that will allow you to supertune your ships (basically boosting their speed) for a certain amount of credits. I've got the boosting speed easily done (had a buster going 2600 m/s the other day ), but still finnicking with the credit deduction and the implementation.
I don't want it to run as a script (ie, you have to go into the script editor to turn it on), I want it to run in the game itself, either from a fab, or (preferably) from a roaming ship that you can communicate with and they'll do the upgrades. Sort of like a mobile tuning shop.

That's a bit trickier to do. And, ofcourse, figuring out how much to charge for each upgrade. It's easy to say "10K per engine boost", but since making ten million credits is pretty damn easy in the game, it's very simple to boost your ship to a speed that will make you near immortal in combat (Basically anything over 350 or so).

So I'm still working on that.

This comment was edited on Nov 17, 19:48.
Avatar 15604
93.
 
Re: X3 Guide
Nov 17, 2005, 19:37
93.
Re: X3 Guide Nov 17, 2005, 19:37
Nov 17, 2005, 19:37
 
Thanks, those guides are great, Creston

Glad it helped you out bud

Like I said, I'm still working on my ultimate weapons trader guide, which, once complete, should allow ANYONE to make ten million credits in one evening. However, I've run into some weird issues where equipment docks now buy stuff they weren't the first time I checked them (and wrote all their inventory down), so I'm basically looking at buying one of each of every weapon, missile and shield in the game, then going by all of them again.
Sigh.

But oh well. Hopefully it'll be done soon. My RSI flaring up again isn't helping much, however

Creston

Edit : Creston is another exemption. The jerk. Heh.

Can't you just feel the love?

This comment was edited on Nov 17, 19:41.
Avatar 15604
92.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 19:07
92.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 19:07
Nov 17, 2005, 19:07
 
I am not sure you understand what the good ol boy system is.

Ah yes, I am aware of how it works, which is why I'm busy networking with future CEO's at HBS and MIT Sloan. I think its a great system. (Obviously, systems are only unfair to a person if they don't benefit that person).

My work ethic, the respect of my peers, and my network of friends and associates will get me a better position with a better environment. (pending no run-ins with AA )

Oh don't worry, AA will ensure that an old fogey like you will get hired.

91.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 19:01
91.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 19:01
Nov 17, 2005, 19:01
 
Book smart is book smart.

Then why use it to close the door on those who already have fewer opportunities?

I don't give two shits about the correlation of the good ol boy system and minorities, I am saying jobs do not benefit (in general) those who bust their ass.

Right, because usually we only care about when things are unfair for us, we don't really care when they are unfair for others (usually, because it benefits us).

bla bla bla comparing me to white supremecists, bla bla bla.

Yeah, I apologize, it wasn't meant as a comparison, but an illustration as to the fallacy of that kind of argument.

Have you been out of college yet?
Your arguments are very similar to the ones I had in college. All books and theories and no real world examples. The "I art holier than thou" because of your education. I did the same thing.

Oh yes, I've been working for 5 years and gained a bit of "real world experience" as an employee and hiring manager. Decided to go back for more punishment. And yes, I can provide anecdotes, but they are pretty weak compared to rigorously done studies.

The underlying assumption that I am challenging you on, is that there are not qualified minorities who can do "X" job or who can graduate from "X" college. I assert that there are, then the question becomes why aren't they hired or admitted? Is it because of our subconscious racism that is illustrated by the 50% difference in reponse rates to similar resumes with white names vs. black names? (which I assert is what AA is attempting to alleviate) And when they are admitted are the higher failure rates due to their race? Or is it some other factors (the historical overt racism that impeded their parents preventing them from helping their children, the current subconscious racism of expected failure or resentment, lack of funds for better study materials/prep courses/better teachers).

You claim that it doesn't work in the Midwest. I could see how that argument can be supported by claiming that there are just too few minorities in the area to support the higher expected rates of hiring them. But the flip side is that with fewer minorities, subconscious racism can be more easily hidden (and more prevalent).

Now I realize that with your "many experiences" things are more ingrained into you. But I'm just trying to challenge your thinking, that things may not be how they appear.

90.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 18:42
90.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 18:42
Nov 17, 2005, 18:42
 
Unfortunatley, reviews aren't based on performance (whoever believes that shit that is not in a sales envirnment....I have some land to sell you) it is all about who sucks up the best and who is buddy with who. A small part of it is how well you perform, but don't make your supervisor or anyone who is above you look bad by working hard!

Wait, you aren't going to start advocating AA due to this now, are you?


I would never advocate AA.
But the good ol boy system is 10x worse.
If they don't like you, they will find a way to get rid of you.

I am not sure you understand what the good ol boy system is.
Bill is the CEO of company A.
He has all of his people working for him and have built many relationships over the years.

Bill resigns and goes to company B.
Doesn't like the vibe of a lot of his direct reports so he fires most of them and brings in his friends and group of people from company A that made him sucessful and are yes sir kind of people.

Those who oppose Bill will be crushed, even though Bill is a shitty CEO.

That is a simplified version.
I currently work for one of these, and probably won't be there much longer. It is a horrible environment to work in. If I were to say what company I work for, everyone would be surprised that his is the case. As it has been in the news off and on for the past 10 years as a great company.
New ideas are stifled, and bad ideas are encouraged because of the blinders everyone wears.
Project planning is the worst I have ever seen, and it is no big thing to spend 2 million on something and then scrap it 2 months later.
There are lots of other things, but by far, this is the worst I have seen of these types of failures of a company.
2500 people, most of who are scared of their bosses or just sheep collecting a check.
Not for me.
My work ethic, the respect of my peers, and my network of friends and associates will get me a better position with a better environment. (pending no run-ins with AA :))

**********************************************
Always listening to: http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=53
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89.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 18:30
89.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 18:30
Nov 17, 2005, 18:30
 
t's not all about data, but how you interpret it, and as I've learned economics at MIT, I know things aren't always what they seem.

MIT MIT MIT BLA BLA BLA.

It's like a broken record.

Book smart is book smart.
I graduated with a 3.0, but I worked FT.
My roomates (3) graduated with 3.5-4.0 and never worked a lick.
I consider them all morons, and if you spent more than 10 minutes with them, you would consider them the same.
Well why did I bunk with them then?
I was a transfer student (4.0 transfer from a Comm College - easy as eating pancakes) and only knew people in my field, Quantitive Methods and Computer Science, and Econ nerds. I took the lesser of the two evils and bunked with CS nerds.

School is a hoop. You said it yourself with the Law School example. Why would they fail someone when they already have a paying customer?

I have no idea where this is going.

Lets see, bla bla bla good ol boy, oh yes, the good ol boy system. I don't give two shits about the correlation of the good ol boy system and minorities, I am saying jobs do not benefit (in general) those who bust their ass. It is a combination of sucking up and making friends. Make the right friends, get the right promotion, etc etc.

Yeah, I responded to my own post cause I didn't feel like editing. Seperate comments on a seperate topic.

bla bla bla comparing me to white supremecists, bla bla bla.

The rest is garbage.

Have you been out of college yet?
Your arguments are very similar to the ones I had in college. All books and theories and no real world examples. The "I art holier than thou" because of your education. I did the same thing.

But I have also been sucessful in IT (10 years and running), Finance, owned my own business which I sold, and now work in IT/Finance. I have been in too many environments to think AA is a good thing. But like I said, this seems to be the point in the Midwest, as it may do other better/worse things in other parts of the US.

**********************************************
Always listening to: http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=53
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88.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 17:51
88.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 17:51
Nov 17, 2005, 17:51
 
Replying to your own post?

Unfortunatley, reviews aren't based on performance (whoever believes that shit that is not in a sales envirnment....I have some land to sell you) it is all about who sucks up the best and who is buddy with who. A small part of it is how well you perform, but don't make your supervisor or anyone who is above you look bad by working hard!

Wait, you aren't going to start advocating AA due to this now, are you?

87.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 17:47
87.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 17:47
Nov 17, 2005, 17:47
 
In the work environment, it would be better than the good ol boy system of todays Big Business. I out perform my peers, yet I do not get paid equally. Most likely because of my age.

But didn't you read the AA fine print, you were probably hired BECAUSE of your age... Just pulling your leg. Do you think that the good ol' boy system doesn't negatively effect minorities too? (thus the point of the Bertrand study) For their whole lives, not just when they get older? Would it be "fair" to try to compensate for that in some way?

It isn't racism. It is facts. Hard core facts.

That's what most white supremacists said during the founding years of intelligence testing. But interpreting facts isn't always easy.

I don't consider myself a racist, and I have not made any indication to have you put that label on me.

That why I called it subconscious racism.

It has had a negative affect on many in my experience.

Again, this perceived negative effect may have more to do with your perceptions than with the "facts".

And as for "facts". Sure, facts are great, but it all goes into the interpretation of those facts. Now a well-done study gives more weight to your argument then simple anecdotes, so I applaud you for that.

As for an analysis of this study, if lower class standing reflected lower graduation rates then higher class standings (or lack of lower class standings) should reflect higher graduation rates. An interesting thing to look at would be if AA increased graduation rates for whites, since this would mean there were fewer of them in the lower class standings.

I'm just saying the standard correlation does not imply causation. There may be other factors causing lower graduation rates than low class standing. (Expectation of failure by their profs, resentment from white peers and thus lack of study groups which are key to law school, availability of loans for tuition, just to name a few).

But if there is causation, the next thing to look at is if higher graduation rates from "lesser" schools would compensate for the good ol' boy factor of getting a degree from a top law school.

Though I do want to point out that I would really be surprised if there is causation. For some strange reason, a number of my close friends attend Harvard Law. One thing I have learned is that it is *really* hard to fail out of law school (at least at Harvard). You can have people who never attend class, do really poorly in class, and still graduate. Failure to get to graduation is probably caused by other factors. And my guess is that going to a "lesser" school will not alleviate those factors. But to know this for sure, I think another study would need to be done to know if his *estimate* is true. (which you should note, is not a "cold hard" fact, its an estimate.)

Oh, and I scored very high - but according to you, I am an idiot cause I can pass a test.

I never took the ACT so I won't pass judgement on it. Though my point isn't that you ARE an idiot, my point is that (especially at the top levels) the SAT does not differentiate well on who is "smarter" than others from the score. There may very well be "better/smarter" candidates than you who got lower scores.

Claiming that you are surrounded by geniuses all day long doesn't necessarily make you one.

I apologize if you took that statement to imply that I was. The statement was meant to indicate my analysis of geniuses that I am around and indicate the lack of good standardized measurement tools of their intelligence.

As for whether or not I am a genius, it depends on the type of intelligence you are measuring against and what scale you are using. For example, these two true statements can *imply* that I am a genius. I have a 5.0/5.0 GPA at MIT; I am a member of Mensa. But let's take a look at each of these and why they are inadequate to support the statement "I am a genius". I assert that there are people smarter than me in my department with a lesser GPA than me. However, they do not attend class, nor spend most of their time on the subject material. Therefore, a higher GPA really doesn't mean that I am "better" than them. There is also this unique factor of MIT exams and their tendency not to test exactly what was taught in class, but I'll leave that for another time.

But does that mean I am a genius? Well, who am I being compared to? Those others who have a lower GPA than me? On other measurements, like success in research, I'm sure they will outrank me. Against the general population? Well, what kind of intelligence are we measuring? For example, I'm very bad at learning new languages.

As for being a member of Mensa, there have been plenty of studies on Mensa members and how successful (of lack thereof) they are in life. Qualification of being in Mensa is basically just scoring in the top 2% on a qualified standardized or I.Q. exam. You already know what I think about some standardized exams, so I'll just leave it at that.

But I digress.

You believe in it and have data, I don't believe in it and I also have data.

It's not all about data, but how you interpret it, and as I've learned economics at MIT, I know things aren't always what they seem.

86.
 
No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 17:17
86.
No subject Nov 17, 2005, 17:17
Nov 17, 2005, 17:17
 
In the work environment, it would be better than the good ol boy system of todays Big Business. I out perform my peers, yet I do not get paid equally. Most likely because of my age.

Other than the fact it took a huge toll on me physically and mentally, this is the very reason why I liked consulting.

I out performed, and I got paid the highest.
Created my own job security.

Unfortunatley, reviews aren't based on performance (whoever believes that shit that is not in a sales envirnment....I have some land to sell you) it is all about who sucks up the best and who is buddy with who. A small part of it is how well you perform, but don't make your supervisor or anyone who is above you look bad by working hard!

Welcome to the real world kiddies. Make friends with the enemy and keep your nose clean!

**********************************************
Always listening to: http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=53
FUNGS 53
http://www.misterpoll.com/4272865924.html
85.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 16:31
85.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 16:31
Nov 17, 2005, 16:31
 
Do you want a meritocracy? I've been in an absolute one, and I don't think you would it. Because you will be measured, found lacking, and no slack will be cut for you. Am I proposing a way to fix the system? No, like I said, I've been in an absolute meritocracy, and it isn't fun.

In the work environment, it would be better than the good ol boy system of todays Big Business. I out perform my peers, yet I do not get paid equally. Most likely because of my age.

AA is a way to combat the racism in people like you, who subconsciously think minorities are under qualified, and whose opinions dictate whether or not they get a good recommendation, pass the admissions process, or get that resume call back.

It isn't racism. It is facts. Hard core facts. I don't consider myself a racist, and I have not made any indication to have you put that label on me. I have given real world examples where AA has affected me personally and those I know. It has had a negative affect on many in my experience. Sooooo you are saying that is opinion? By my examples I would say your statement is bullshit.

I didn't link it since I didn't think it was needed, but obviously it is:

UCLA professor Richard H. Sander published an article in the November 2004 issue of the Stanford Law Review that questioned the effectiveness of affirmative action in law schools. The article presents a study that, among other things, shows that half of all black law students rank near the bottom of their class after the first year of law school, and that black law students are more likely to drop out of law school and to fail the bar exam. The article offers a tentative estimate that the production of new black lawyers in the United States would grow by eight percent if affirmative action programs at all law schools were ended, as black students would instead attend less prestigious schools where they would be more closely matched with their classmates, and thus perform better. The article has sparked heated initial reaction and controversy, and critics are reviewing the study's methodology. Sander, whose personal politics are reported to be somewhat liberal, helped to develop a socioeconomically-based affirmative action plan for the UCLA School of Law after the passage of Proposition 209 in 1996 which prohibited the use of racial preferences by public universities California schools. This change occurred after studies that showed that the graduation rate of blacks at UCLA was 41%, compared to 73% for whites.

Facts suc don't they?

And for the record we didn't have to take SAT. We took ACT since knowingly I applied to 1 school and put all of my eggs in one basket. There were other schools out of state that I had conversations with, but wasn't interested, who also accepted ACT. Oh, and I scored very high - but according to you, I am an idiot cause I can pass a test.
And why did they like my essay?
Well maybe I was INTELLIGENT enough to research what they look for in their essays. I asked current students and figured it couldn't hurt to ask the individuals who actually look at the essays. Wow, what a concept.

Claiming that you are surrounded by geniuses all day long doesn't necessarily make you one. But good luck with that.

You believe in it and have data, I don't believe in it and I also have data.

Cheers.


**********************************************
Always listening to: http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=53
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This comment was edited on Nov 17, 16:45.
84.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 15:57
84.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 15:57
Nov 17, 2005, 15:57
 
Are you telling me that those who get into the school are better qualified than other groups not given a bump in their SAT?

There is an underlying assumpting you are making in using that "information". You are assuming that SAT scores are indicative of how "smart" a student is. What I am saying is that we don't know if they are better qualified, because standardized tests can only measure a small portion of the mental level of a student. There is a reason that MIT doesn't accept every 1600 scorer. So yes, they may very well be better qualified.

And even then, if its a poorly written test... really, the math portion of the SAT is a joke. If you have any intelligence whatsoever, it becomes who can make the least of simple math errors in a timed environment. There is no mental challenge needed to solve those questions, no calculus, no pre-calculus, just stuff middle school students are expected to learn. A much better test would be modeled on something like MathCounts.

And the verbal... gee, do you know the definition of this random esoteric word? Well, we'll give you a score based on that.

I'm surrounded by absolute geniuses every day, and let me assure you that this kind of test is a very poor indication of mental ability. But hey, its a way to put numbers on people.

Ultimatley, I see problems with the system, obviously you don't.

You obviously have me misunderstood. I see the system as inherently flawed. In the end, its inherently subjective. Look at your example, they liked your essay. Completely subjective. What a bunch of BS. How is that supposed to say that you are a better candidate than others? What if they reader just didn't connect with you on a cultural level? Do you think that you got in over others with higher SAT scores but essay's the officers just didn't like? I bet you did.

Do you want a meritocracy? I've been in an absolute one, and I don't think you would it. Because you will be measured, found lacking, and no slack will be cut for you. Am I proposing a way to fix the system? No, like I said, I've been in an absolute meritocracy, and it isn't fun.

AA is a way to combat the racism in people like you, who subconsciously think minorities are under qualified, and whose opinions dictate whether or not they get a good recommendation, pass the admissions process, or get that resume call back.

Likewise - as I give real world examples and you give a model. I say how it IS and you say how it SHOULD BE.

As for my hard evidence, look at the Harvard/MIT/NBER study I linked to in my earlier post. I think that's a bit more than a few anecdotal stories. Also, you have me mistaken, I'm not saying how it "should" be, I'm saying that how it IS, is probably the best we can fix an inherently flawed system.

Gee, you provided another story of a subconsciously racist admissions officer (actually, I don't blame them, they only have standardized numbers to go off of, and who would ever doubt numbers?).

Should college admissions process take into account how much taxes their parents pay, both federal and state? That doesn't seem very fair. Should students be penalized because they and their parents live in another country and pay no American taxes?

If we had a true meritocracy, very few Americans would get into the top schools. "Oh, but we pay our taxes for these schools, we deserve to get in." So we really want a meritocracy until the level that it stops helping us. Things are only fair when it benefits us.

83.
 
Re: LITE-ON
Nov 17, 2005, 14:13
83.
Re: LITE-ON Nov 17, 2005, 14:13
Nov 17, 2005, 14:13
 
Seems to fit my budget, or lack there of, thanks guys.

Good choice man.
I have also used those in the past. Just make sure to get the updated BIOS for them.

**********************************************
Always listening to: http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=53
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82.
 
LITE-ON
Nov 17, 2005, 13:10
82.
LITE-ON Nov 17, 2005, 13:10
Nov 17, 2005, 13:10
 
Seems to fit my budget, or lack there of, thanks guys.

81.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 09:29
81.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 09:29
Nov 17, 2005, 09:29
 
edit: I find your facts very weak in support of your hypothesis.

Likewise - as I give real world examples and you give a model. I say how it IS and you say how it SHOULD BE.

So what is your opinion, oh wise one, when a community busses kids from one school district to another to create 'diversity' and the students that get bussed are the ones creating problems? This is a known problem in many schools around the metro area currently.
I know individuals who are getting out of teaching because of these practices.

Here is a nice nugget of information that shows AA is a horrible program:

An affirmative action study by Princeton researchers in 2005 attempted to break down and compare the effects of the practice among racial and special groups. The data from the study represent admissions disadvantage and advantage in terms of SAT points (on 1600-point scale):

* Blacks: +230
* Hispanics: +185
* Asians: −50
* Recruited athletes: +200
* Legacies (children of alumni): +160


Are you telling me that those who get into the school are better qualified than other groups not given a bump in their SAT? I was very surprised to get into the school I did because I was the majority. I wasn't expecting to be admitted. (Wasn't a very good student in HS - but had 4.0 in 2 years of college elsewhere) Once I got there, it turns out they liked my essay and they had not yet implemented AA into the admissions process.
-Being a part of IT on campus people feel free to talk to you about things they shouldn't.

Ultimatley, I see problems with the system, obviously you don't.

***************************************
Always listening to: http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=53
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This comment was edited on Nov 17, 10:02.
80.
 
Re: X3 Guide
Nov 17, 2005, 02:34
80.
Re: X3 Guide Nov 17, 2005, 02:34
Nov 17, 2005, 02:34
 
Just go grab those ships Creston listed. The Mamba is the only one that gave me any trouble (both because of the mines and the one time the pirates realized I was taking it,) but you can grab the other two without any issue and sell them off for nearly 1.5M cr.

I have my one baby sector trader going and have another cargo ship going around for manual trading. Depending on how well/poorly the sector trader does, I may switch things so I have two sector traders, one manually-controller cargo ship, and my sexy Mamba picking on pirates/cock all over the place.

I guess you could even sell off the Mamba for a good million-plus, but that would just make baby jeebus cry!!!!
Alright Creston, what about a super fast ship with decent shields?
Still needing to try out the new UC demo,
Ray


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s{I love you, mom.
This comment was edited on Nov 17, 02:34.
Everything is awesome!!!
http://www.kindafunny.com/
I love you, mom.
Avatar 2647
79.
 
Re: X3 Guide
Nov 17, 2005, 02:04
79.
Re: X3 Guide Nov 17, 2005, 02:04
Nov 17, 2005, 02:04
 
Thanks, those guides are great, Creston! I've been mostly puttering around in X3, getting used to the controls and stuff.

I can say with certainty:

  • The starting ship they give you, where you start as a trader, is a joke. (It's one of the plotless games) I have not managed to destroy one ship yet, and I've been picking on the ones that look easy.

  • A GeForce 4 Ti4400 is totally unsuitable for this game. I've got it running at 1024x768 with shaders and textures set to low, and it's still kinda choppy. I've got an AMD Athlon64 3200+ and 1 gig of RAM, BTW.

  • I have to remember there's a notepad in the game. I've got a hold full of textiles that I seem to have bought "high" and everyone is paying "low" I'm glad I didn't name my character "Jim Cramer" because at this point I'm certainly not making "Mad Money" but it's only my first time out.

  • Even with graphics set to low it's still miles ahead of Derek's games in the looks dept. ;)
and a big BOOYAH! to Creston and Ray
Hoping The Movies goes on sale soon,
Camaro76

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78.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 01:41
78.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 01:41
Nov 17, 2005, 01:41
 
I have worked at 2 places where we HAD to hire someone and ended up letting them go because of performance issues. They were both hired under AA.

Ignoring the subjective matter of "performance evaluations" (the Mt. Fuji book also talks about that), it seems that the true problem is your hiring process is failing to identify who can get the job done. If it could figure that out, then they wouldn't have even been brought in for an interview.

And I'm sure that plenty (as you allude to) have been let go for "performance issues" that haven't been hired under AA. Does that mean AA is the problem? No, your hiring process is flawed in identifying who can get the job done.

And if you're crying that your company "makes" you hire people who can't get the job done, 1) the company is stupid 2) the person is obviously going to fail if they have to work with someone who is already prejudiced against them (never mind that they probably get to write the later performance review).

/edit: And your correlation to getting a job and getting into MIT is very weak. (One of my concentrations was Econ)

That's only because you know little of what MIT is like. If that example, doesn't do it for you, just ignore it. It was for illustration purposes only. And Econ was also one of my concentrations.

Why do they have questions at the big 5 that are "optional", yeah right, about your ethnicity? It is because you need to read the fine print on that application about AA and EOE. Cause if you haven't, you are missing out on some BS GOLD!

Those good enough facts for you?

You should reread the fine print. All it says is that the company won't discriminate against you. (The hiring managers on the other hand... which is the point of AA, to prevent them from doing it.) If you take it to mean more than that, you're mistaken. But its good to use to feel like *those* minorities sure have it easy.

edit: I find your facts very weak in support of your hypothesis.
This comment was edited on Nov 17, 01:43.
77.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 01:17
77.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 01:17
Nov 17, 2005, 01:17
 
Are you sure the best person didn't get the job? How do you know? Maybe you only perceive that this minority who got the job isn't the best person. Maybe the problem isn't with the minority or the system, but with your perception.

and

So let me ask, can the person get the job done? I can't imagine that anyone would hire someone who couldn't. That's what MIT does with the first hurdle. After that, its all what you had for lunch.

I have worked at 2 places where we HAD to hire someone and ended up letting them go because of performance issues. They were both hired under AA.

I applied and interviewed for a position but it went to someone under AA. I later found out that person was "not working out".
No, not McDonalds - these were professional jobs in a previous career.

I stated I was in charge of hiring on more than one occasion - draw your own conclusions as to the freedom I had or did not have in hiring the "correct" person.

Why do they have questions at the big 5 that are "optional", yeah right, about your ethnicity? It is because you need to read the fine print on that application about AA and EOE. Cause if you haven't, you are missing out on some BS GOLD!

Those good enough facts for you?
I don't apply at MIT (no desire), but I have been affected by it nonetheless.

Cargill is notorious for hiring boo boos.
-insider info.

/edit: And your correlation to getting a job and getting into MIT is very weak. (One of my concentrations was Econ)

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This comment was edited on Nov 17, 01:21.
76.
 
Re: No subject
Nov 17, 2005, 00:57
76.
Re: No subject Nov 17, 2005, 00:57
Nov 17, 2005, 00:57
 
Are you sure the best person didn't get the job? How do you know? Maybe you only perceive that this minority who got the job isn't the best person. Maybe the problem isn't with the minority or the system, but with your perception.

Dang, if it were that simple to figure out who was the best person, hiring would be so much simpler. In general, how the hell can anyone tell who's best? You can look at a resume (or who pads the most on a resume), you can talk to them for an hour, but in the end, its usually the first 15 subjective seconds of a meeting that dictates whether or not someone gets hired. Check out "How to move Mt. Fuji" to look at how most hiring practices are done (which is then compared to Microsoft's).

There is no true absolute measure for who the best person is.

It's all completely subjective, and when its all subjective, racism can hide in it. Take a look at France. They go with the whole "stick our head in the sand" out-look on race, and ignore it complete. It conveniently lets them hide the amount of racism they do have.

One of my wife's fellow researchers at MIT Economics department recently worked on a study that sent out the same resume with different names on it (using standard white names and standard minority names). They found that standard white names got a vastly greater response rate than minority names... WITH THE SAME RESUME!!!

Do you know how MIT does undergrad admissions? It was explained to me that they have two hurdles that someone has to get over. The first is whether or not they can do the work at MIT. Let me assure you this bar is high. If they can't cross it, they don't get in. The second is what the person will bring to the Institution. They take into account research passion, extracurriculars, recommendations, cultural background, race and what the admissions officer had for lunch. (ie. its a subjective score).

Is it fair that race is on the list? The process itself is inherently unfair with or without race on the list. Do you know that each year there are some applicants with 1600 SAT scores who are rejected? Why couldn't they have let them in, instead of the white son of a West Virginia doctor with a 1350? Because they deemed that the other guy would bring more to the Institution than the 1600 (either that or they needed someone from West Virginia).

So let me ask, can the person get the job done? I can't imagine that anyone would hire someone who couldn't. That's what MIT does with the first hurdle. After that, its all what you had for lunch.

edit:Here is the paper on the MIT study I cited
http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mullainathan/papers/emilygreg.pdf
This comment was edited on Nov 17, 01:17.
75.
 
Re: There is snow on the ground...
Nov 17, 2005, 00:37
75.
Re: There is snow on the ground... Nov 17, 2005, 00:37
Nov 17, 2005, 00:37
 
I basically said the least and the most that I could about all the -isms in my other post.

I will say that it is not the classification - it is fine to note person X has A thing and perzon Z has B thing - but the prejudice part is how you treat them because of it.

It is fine to see that I am white, that I am male, that I am twenty-six, that I am agnostic, and so forth. But to just treat me differently, particularly in a negative way, just because of those things does not make those sense. I am who I am because of who I am, not because of what I am.

I may be a prick that is white, but I am not a prick because I am white.

As ever, my explanation is fairly poor :|, but they are two different things.
Creston is another exemption. The jerk. Heh.
Shrugging,
Ray

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