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Out of the Blue

Just want to send out some very happy birthday wishes this morning to Ray Marden, forum regular here and true stand-up guy. Happy birthday Ray... All the best!

Birthday Links! Thanks Mike Martinez, Ant, and EvilToast.
Links: Today's Front Pages. Thanks Sharon.
Media: Origin of CTRL-ALT-DELETE. Priceless.
Science: Study Says Echinacea Has No Effect on Colds (registration required).
Scientists Experiment With Current in Nev.
Follow-ups: NASA Grounds Future Shuttle Flights.
Shuttle Launch Sets Record For Online Viewers.
Scientists Measure Cow Gas.
U.S. finds third possible BSE case. Moo-haha.

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53 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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53. Re: Any ideas? Jul 30, 2005, 02:22 Ray Marden
 
Bad memtest results do not always indicate bad memory.

Many times, the memory timings are simply set incorrectly for what the memory is or for a given platform (tons of crap is sold at one speed, but you read the forums and find out it should actually be adjusted for a given platform.)

I have had memory that reported numerous errors on one (or more) test(s) that would then run 100% error free through a half day or testing, once the timings were adjusted.

Just a little FYI/PITA for memtest user
Don't we all love computers?
Thinking I am due for a reinstall,
Ray

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52. Re: 'Grats Ray!! Jul 29, 2005, 16:54 Bronco
 
Blaming................Matthew!,
Ray (who will actually be semi-posting now)

Nah, you can't blame me for this one. I was 9 when you were born and many many states away!

Happy Birthday buddy!

I'd post more if I had something to say...

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51. Re: Any ideas? Jul 29, 2005, 16:41 Enahs
 
Interestingly enough, it is now my birthday.

Happy birthday man!

Is it possible that the power for my apartment is really "dirty" and is causing problems?

No.


You have installed the latest motherboard chipset/agp drivers correct?
( http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_winxp_5.10 )

I find it odd that it would do it with different video cards, different games, and the CPU is not over heating.

You might want to let memtest run over night or at least a few hours.

If you can not make the CPU over heat or have any problems with heavy load, and the memory is fine…it only leaves the video card or the mother board. With it doing the same thing in many different games with two different video cards I would tend to lean towards the motherboard.

If you have not updated the motherboard drivers as I linked to earlier, and that does not fix it. I would then go into your BIOS, lower the AGP setting to 4X or 2X, turn off fast writes, ect. Anything that has to do with the AGP port turn it down. Then see where you get.

Note: I do believe the x800’s require more power then the AGP port can deliver. You do have the external molex power connector plugged up, correct? If not, plug it up! If you do, try and make sure it is not splitting off the same rail as something with too much other stuff.

Second note, I just though of something right before hitting post:
It could only be crashing in games due to sound, if what above I said does not work…try taking out your sound card and see if it still crashes.




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50. Re: Any ideas? Jul 29, 2005, 11:32 nin
 
Interestingly enough, it is now my birthday.

Missed this one! Happy Birthday!

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49. Re: Any ideas? Jul 29, 2005, 11:08 Creston
 
Chip,

I yet have to see 'dirty' power cause BSODs. At most it will simply cause your computer to shut off.

I have to say though that your Memory test is pretty inconclusive. 45 mins won't even get a single pass of all the tests done, and you generally want to run around 7 or 8 passes before you can be sure.

Let memtest run tonight (make sure you use memtest+, btw, get it from www.memtest.ORG) and let it run THE WHOLE NIGHT. Then check in the morning to see if you got any errors. If you have even a single error, your memory is bad. (You'll have to retest with single sticks to find out which one is bad).

Prime95 is a good tester as well, but it really needs to run at least 12-24 hours to get any kind of trustworthy result out of it. The early prime numbers it calculates are so simple that unless your system is really flaky it won't have any issues with it.
It's once it starts going into the 100.000 digit numbers that your computer will start to groan a bit.

I just flashed my mobo bios today and updated its drivers as well. What else could it be?

Well, there are still several options. One, your windows install might be bad, you could have corruptions in your registry.

I would reinstall windows first, cleanly, put SP2 (or SP4 in case of Win2k) on it, install videocard drivers, DX9c and BF2. Nothing else. (skip the mobo drivers even)
Then play it. If it still crashes, you can rule out OS issues or any other app interfering.
If it DOESN'T crash, then you can start adding stuff, certain drivers, soundcard drivers etc, and see what happens. If at any point a crash starts occurring after you installed something, odds are good that you found your culprit.
What kind of BSOD are you getting, btw? Which file does it mention?

It could be your motherboard itself, although it seems unlikely because you have the issues in certain games and not in others. A faulty mobo would most likely crash all your games.

Finally, it could be that EA's shitty piece of code just doesn't like your hardware combinations and crashes. I've had that happen to myself with certain games that were considered rockstable for everyone, and they'd blue screen on me every 15 minutes. (Sacrifice was one of those).
So yes, it IS very possible that it's the software, and not your system.

Try reinstalling and see where that goes. As for a good place to discuss this, you could try www.anandtech.com tech support forum.

Meatfarts,

EDIT: Keep in mind that they are the most complicated machines ever built; IIRC, a shuttle has more than 6 million moving parts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that they're not exactly assembly-line goods either ..which I also realise isn't what you were implying


No, but any replacement craft is going to be just as hard, if not harder to build. It just seems that there is a mindset currently that the replacement craft has to be radically different from the shuttle. I'm not sure I understand why. Cost might be a good factor, but the shuttle WORKS. It's just old. Building a new, more modern, one seems like a good solution to me, but I'm sure that there has to be SOME smart guy at NASA that has figured that

My point is that I don't really blame them for being reluctant to give up on such a device. (I think)

Me either, which is why I think building a new one makes a lot of sense.

Tango,

Well yes, sort of. But here's NASA's problem. The only genuine destination of the shuttle is the ISS. The ISS is inefficient and is of very little scientific use. As I said, most of its jobs can be done better, cheaper and safer by robots. Zipping around in orbit is not breaking new boundries. It is also incredibly expensive. A shuttle launch costs about $400m compared to a Soyuz launch's $60m. Between them, they suck up so much budget that NASA has very little left to do such useful projects as scramjets, and all the other stuff that might have external benefits. It's a nasty situation.

True, and probably won't have an immediate solution.

 
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48. Re: Any ideas? Jul 29, 2005, 09:16 Chipsystems
 
Thanks Enahs. And happy (at this point) belated birthday to you. Interestingly enough, it is now my birthday.

Anyway, I have tested two separate video cards, and would would be very surprised if it was video card heat. The second card is one of those fancy dealies that takes up two PCI slots for the giant heatsink and fan.

The side of the case has been off for a while now, with no noticeable difference.

Is it possible that the power for my apartment is really "dirty" and is causing problems? I have the nice PSU, and that's plugged into a really beefy surge protector...

 
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47. Re: Any ideas? Jul 29, 2005, 06:34 Tango
 
And of course, happy b'day Enahs!

 
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46. Re: 'Grats Ray!! Jul 29, 2005, 06:15 Tango
 
It does mean that we'll probably be abandoning ISS though. There are components that only the Shuttle was qualified to bring up.
Unfortunately that's not an option. NASA is committed to bringing up Japanese and European and international private enterprise bits and bobs that only will go in the Shuttle (as you said, because of the arm). NASA is unable to go back on these agreements, unless perhaps the next one crashes on re-entry as well (God forbid etc). Why? Because they know full well if they are to have any part in George W's big dream of going back to the moon and off to Mars they will have to do it with private help - Congress simply will not sign a blank cheque. Therefore if they go back on their agreements now, nobody will join them later.

but the cost for development is too high and the incentive too little.
Precisely. If near 100% recycling were cost-effective, there's no shortage of private firms that'd do it. As it is, private space firms (admittedly just getting off the ground, quite literally) are pursuing the most profitable (read: useful) enterprises: space tourism, and small university and private teams that want to check something in zero G for fifteen minutes.

but within the first minutes of getting a human to the right spot, we'd know if mars had water, just from the tactile feel of the soil
That's probably true, but hardly a justification. I could spend far less than the cost of a manned mission to build a robot that'd be pretty damn sure whether or not there was water, and, crucially, I dont need to bring the robot home.

It's a lot cheaper to do that in the shuttle than it would be to send him up in One-Shot launchers / returners
Well yes, sort of. But here's NASA's problem. The only genuine destination of the shuttle is the ISS. The ISS is inefficient and is of very little scientific use. As I said, most of its jobs can be done better, cheaper and safer by robots. Zipping around in orbit is not breaking new boundries. It is also incredibly expensive. A shuttle launch costs about $400m compared to a Soyuz launch's $60m. Between them, they suck up so much budget that NASA has very little left to do such useful projects as scramjets, and all the other stuff that might have external benefits. It's a nasty situation.

 
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45. Re: Okay, someone explain this to me Jul 29, 2005, 00:57 WebDemon
 
"btw, foam's been breaking off the tank since the late 70s"

Close. First Shuttle didn't launch until April 12 1981. They used to deploy Enterprise from the top of the 747 for glide testing during the 70's.

 
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44. Re: No subject Jul 28, 2005, 19:44 Gen. Hospital
 
Happy Birthday Ray!

Happy Birthday Enahs!



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43. Re: No subject Jul 28, 2005, 19:21 Yosemite Sam
 
On another Discovery note, I was deciding what game I should play last night, fired up NASA tv instead. Woot I got to watch the shuttle fly up to ISS do a backflip then dock. Man that was something to see, For the backflip they had a camera on ISS watching the shuttle, the shuttle was between ISS and earth. So I got to see the shuttle do a backflip in space while europe drifted by in the background.

EDIT that ctrl-alt-del vid is sweet, Bill got burned, ha ha.


This comment was edited on Jul 28, 19:23.
 
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42. No subject Jul 28, 2005, 19:10 Pete
 
Happy birthday ray!  
Doin' it Big
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41. Re: 'Grats Ray!! Jul 28, 2005, 18:55 Sixis
 
Two people level up on the same day, I guess Enahs and Ray must have both gotten experience from the same quest So grats to Enahs too!

My liberal arts degree take on the shuttle is that it's going to take China breathing down our neck for the first permenant colony before the U.S. gets its ass in gear for space again, but when that does happen the U.S. will really get cranked on it. No nation on Earth is as conscious of the need to control the frontier and people it with like-minded morons for domestic security. All that cash we spend in the military (plus extra cash we can spend in the military when we want to) would quickly add up to the kind of dollars people talk about when discussing the really expensive missions to Mars.

Of course, it will probably end up like Pohl's book Jem...

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40. Re: Any ideas? Jul 28, 2005, 18:40 Enahs
 
Chipsystem

You have seemed to eliminate the CPU/Mem from the culprit. (Though, to thoroughly test the mem with memtest it needs a good 3-4 hour run).

But with it doing on more than one game, it is unlikely it is a software error and more of a hardware error.

But you have not done anything about video card heat.

Do you have enough case fans? Are they installed properly so they help each other instead of interfere with each other?

Try leaving the side of the case off and see if that stops it or makes it take longer to crash.
If that does help, then the video card is probably getting to hot. Make sure the video card fan is free of dust, hell…make sure it spins too!


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39. Re: Indigo Prophecy demo Jul 28, 2005, 18:33 Bucky
 
is there some way to play more than just the Diner 'zone'?
i get outside, look at the drunk in the alley, and can jump in a cab or run into the subway, but then the demo ends.

is there more? or is that it?

Nope, that's it. I didn't keep track of this game until the demo; now it's on order....and I don't usually play adventure games. I still can't figure out if the cop was cued based on a certain time limit or if it was some script, it seemed like time to me which is that much cooler since it makes it harder to 'cheat' in the game by avoiding the specific trigger points.


Happy B-day Ray and Enahs.

Edit: Tag fix.
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38. Re: No subject Jul 28, 2005, 17:21 MeatForce
 
in the case of investigating a planet's soil/atmosphere etc, there just is no substitute for a human (prefferably with a buggy an d a rock/soil collection bin).

Only problem with that will be finding a John Deere cap big enough to fit over the space-helmet


If maintenance, flaws in the wiring etc is such a big deal with the shuttle, why not take its general design, upgrade where possible, keep the same shape / idea, and build with 2005 technology rather than mid 1970s technology (not that that's currently so much better, but hey), to tidy it over until the next thing rolls off the assembly line. Seriously?
There is SO MUCH worry over the state the shuttles are in, that they have to be retired by 2010. If my car dies, I buy a new one. I don't ditch it and then wait for mankind to come up with an alternative mode of transportation. Get my gist?

EDIT: Keep in mind that they are the most complicated machines ever built; IIRC, a shuttle has more than 6 million moving parts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that they're not exactly assembly-line goods either ..which I also realise isn't what you were implying

My point is that I don't really blame them for being reluctant to give up on such a device. (I think)
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37. Any ideas? Jul 28, 2005, 17:10 Chipsystems
 
So, I've been trying to get BF2 to work for a bit now, and to no avail. If any one has any suggestions for me, please post them.

My problem is that anywhere from 5-20 minutes into playing the game, I get a BSOD, and have to hard boot. The BSOD happens less often with CS:S, and never with MVP baseball 2005 or C&C:Generals Zero Hour.

I've cleaned dust, I've scandisked, I've virus checked, and I've defragged. I've done a memtest, and both my sticks are good after 45 minutes of testing. I've run torture tests with Prime95 for "maximum heat and power consumption" and have had no crashes while doing that; my CPU hits about 52C max during that depending on ambient temperature in my room (no A/C right now.. ugh). I've tried 4 different video drivers, and 2 different video cards. I just flashed my mobo bios today and updated its drivers as well. What else could it be?

Some signs have pointed to the power supply. But it's a beefy 400W job from Fortron Source that I just bought 7 months ago. I've been thinking I might buy a new one from Best Buy or something, with the hopes that I can return it if it doesn't fix the problem.

My specs:
Athlon64 3200+
MSI K8N Neo Platinum 2 (nForce 3 Ultra)
(2) 512 MB Crucial Memory
HIS x800xt
Soundblaster Audigy OEM
(2) WD 120GB IDE HD, 8MB cache
Lite-on CD:RW
Lite-on DVD

Edit: Oh, I forgot to ask, is it possible that it's the software's fault and not mine/my hardware's? And has any one seen any good threads somewhere about BSODs and BF2?


This comment was edited on Jul 28, 17:11.
 
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36. Re: 'Grats Ray!! Jul 28, 2005, 17:00 Creston
 
Er, Soyuz predates the Shuttle. By awhile. It's not a re-usable platform either. The Russians do have a shuttle-like platform (Buran), but it's never been used for manned flight.

*blink blink*
I errr.... was on crack or something. I could have sworn Soyuz didn't get started until the 80s and that it WAS reusable, but my lazy refusal to ever look anything up will just say that I'm mightily confused in my old age.

Yeah, and at the beginning of air travel much the same could've been said about the engines of that day. How often do you think they do a stripdown of a modern jet engine nowadays?

Well, you'd be surprised how much maintenance goes on even during a daily routine check. I do get your point, but right now, I just can't see our technical level being advanced enough to build a spacecraft without such lengthy maintenance, which was what I was referring to. We're just not technically advanced enough.
Also, a plane with a bad engine can conceivably still come home. If the shuttle's engine dies, it's really far up shit creek. (and yes, I know that it has five engines, so theoretically one engine dying wouldn't be THAT big a deal, but still).

Not really. There's been a number of designs put forth in the past two decades, not all of which rely upon ramjet/scramjet -- search for info on the DC-X project for one example.

Which is still a form of a shuttle, except that its delivery system is different. I'm not saying that 100% down into the details the shuttle is the best, I mean that the type of design (a reusable 'plane like' craft) is the best / most efficient / most attainable.

Uh, what, you don't think that's been looked at?

Apparently not. If maintenance, flaws in the wiring etc is such a big deal with the shuttle, why not take its general design, upgrade where possible, keep the same shape / idea, and build with 2005 technology rather than mid 1970s technology (not that that's currently so much better, but hey), to tidy it over until the next thing rolls off the assembly line. Seriously?
There is SO MUCH worry over the state the shuttles are in, that they have to be retired by 2010. If my car dies, I buy a new one. I don't ditch it and then wait for mankind to come up with an alternative mode of transportation. Get my gist?

Which is why the government can spend vast amounts of money on things like going to the moon, a space station, etc.

So why is going to Mars a bad thing? Most of the money governments spend is money they don't have, and realistically it's money that never exists anyways. (goes into debt, which eventually dies under inflation because of the insanely long term repayment, ie going on several hundred years now for many european governments).
But that's why I say that the world needs to pool its resources on space travel.
Ofcourse, we tried that with the ISS, and the US still winds up footing 99% of the bill, but everyone else wants equal say in the matter.

BTW, you left out China. They're only the third country to orbit a human with their own space program.

Oh duh. Oversight. Technically I also left out France, who have sort of an upstart space program. (ie, 2 guys who are looking into forming a committee to determine where they would build the office that might eventually house the space agency).
Sorry China.

What else are you going to use for insulation? Not only do you have to insulate to reduce ice buildup (you think foam hitting the tiles is bad? Try something a few hundred times more dense...), but you also have to keep the fuel in the main fuel tank at temperature (which is a couple hundred degrees below zero). And you can't use some kind of permanent insulation because that would just be more weight to drag into orbit.

No, I meant, why is it THERE. On the outside? Would it be THAT much of an issue to do a double layer tank and layer the foam in between? Obviously it's more expensive, and obviously it makes the thing heavier, but somehow I think that watching shuttles blow up in the atmosphere on re-entry is even more expensive.
And if you're an agency that can spend a fucking BILLION dollars on just putting up more cameras so you can see that you're still a retard where that foam is concerned, somehow I doubt that double layering that booster is really going to break the bank?

Creston

 
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35. Re: 'Grats Ray!! Jul 28, 2005, 16:33 Warhawk
 
Happy Birthday Enahs!

Ditto that one, too.


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34. Re: 'Grats Ray!! Jul 28, 2005, 16:23 Zathrus
 
The russians at first thought the shuttle was a stupid idea, and now they have the Soyuz.

Er, Soyuz predates the Shuttle. By awhile. It's not a re-usable platform either. The Russians do have a shuttle-like platform (Buran), but it's never been used for manned flight.

There isn't going to be an astronaut in the world who'll climb into something like that.

Yeah, and at the beginning of air travel much the same could've been said about the engines of that day. How often do you think they do a stripdown of a modern jet engine nowadays?

We've progressed significantly in materials, computer controls, sensors, and many other fields since the Shuttle was designed. We can do a lot better now. And, frankly, the Shuttle design wasn't considered all that great for its time -- it became what it is due to massive compromises, largely political in nature. See http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/general/ethics/boosters.html for some more info.

Like it or not, the shuttle may be old but it's still the best design we've got.

Not really. There's been a number of designs put forth in the past two decades, not all of which rely upon ramjet/scramjet -- search for info on the DC-X project for one example.

why not BUILD A NEW ONE?

Uh, what, you don't think that's been looked at? Most of the designs have been ones you just scoffed at -- ramjet/scramjet based platforms. We have to get the cost per pound down -- if we don't then using the Shuttle is pointless. The jobs it does can be done more cheaply by normal rockets, and the money needed to design a new Shuttle is better spent on simply solving the few areas where current rockets are lacking. Doing that would be a small fraction of the design cost and would lower future costs too. But not as much as a cheaper launch platform would -- which is why we keep trying to solve the ramjet/scramjet or SSTO problems. Modern theory says they'll work, and inital testing is confirming the theory.

True, but in the end what incentive was there really for going to the moon?

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that the cost of development/incentive issue affects private business. It does not affect (to the same degree) government. Which is why the government can spend vast amounts of money on things like going to the moon, a space station, etc.

BTW, you left out China. They're only the third country to orbit a human with their own space program.

I still don't understand why the foam needs to be there though.

What else are you going to use for insulation? Not only do you have to insulate to reduce ice buildup (you think foam hitting the tiles is bad? Try something a few hundred times more dense...), but you also have to keep the fuel in the main fuel tank at temperature (which is a couple hundred degrees below zero). And you can't use some kind of permanent insulation because that would just be more weight to drag into orbit.

 
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