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  • World of Warcraft
    The WoW General Discussion Forums (thanks Ant and WorldofWar.net) has a Q&A with Kalgan, lead designer on Blizzard's MMORPG, discussing the new Honor System: "We're taking our first step towards a dishonor system upon the release of the next patch. Trivial civilian NPCs such as quest givers and vendors will now give dishonor points to players that prey upon them. We haven't decided upon a specific penalty but it will be enough that the majority of players will not wish to engage in combat with those NPCs. This combined with the fact that upon the release of Battlegrounds most players will not be targeting towns or unsuspecting adventurers nearly as often, should reduce the need to add too much more in the way of a penalty, or dishonor."
  • Cross Racing Championship 2005
    SimRacingWorld's Cross Racing Championship 2005 Q&A talks with Invictus about the latest installment in their racing series: "Using vertex-based chassis and part deformation, every impact produces a unique result, as mesh deformation is calculated real-time based on the actual collision impulse vector. Damaged doors and hoods can flap and fall off, just like the bumpers, wheels or other parts. Impacts on wheels can deform the geometry of the suspension, making the wheel wobble, get nipped or stuck, or pull the entire car to one side. A nice part of the damage system is the particle system with its varied effects. Sparks fly all around as the car scrapes the barriers, and even windscreens and windows can be blown into tiny pieces (looks especially nice when played back in slow motion replay), plus you can hear and feel every jump and bump as the suspension and the chassis creaks and squeaks."

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24 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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24. Re: No subject Apr 26, 2005, 08:55 ildon
 
Agreed. The issue here is that you're screwing people who don't want to PvP. On a PvE server that's unacceptable.

FYI: There's a reason they call them "Normal" servers and not "PvE" servers. "Normal" servers have *reduced* PvP interaction.

 
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23. Re: No subject Apr 26, 2005, 08:52 ildon
 
BTW, another scenario you people seem to willfully forget:

One of my guildmates is being corpse camped while trying to complete a quest. He is level 30. I am level 60. Everyone on at the time is level 60. His harassers are level 30, but outnumber him 10:1. I can't help him at all because I would accrue dishonor, ruining my contribution points for the week or possibly making my faction NPC's unfriendly to me. "Sorry Billy, guess you have to logout. And I guess there's no point in being in a guild since no one can help you!"

 
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22. Re: No subject Apr 26, 2005, 08:40 ildon
 
Now before you say, "you must be some low level n00b". I have 12 different characters across various realm types and my highest is a level 52 Druid, so don't even go there.

Hate to say it, but when it's as easy as it is in WoW to get to level 60, if you bought the game at release and still don't have a level 60 with gear from end-game instances, you're a "low level n00b".

Anyway, obviously during internal testing they found dishonor griefing to be too detrimental to gameplay. In case you forgot, an honor system including dishonor was going to be in the game at release, but they held it back for 5 months, in favor of a system without dishonor for killing players. They wouldn't do that "just for the hell of it". And even though they call it an honor system, it's obviously just a point system like frags in an FPS.

If you're smart, you're going to be going for the highest point value targets. If you're level 60, that's other level 60's. And you're going to kill them solo so the points aren't split. So they reward the most "honorable" (in the eyes of many players) kills the most. Just because "HK" pops up on the screen when you just killed that level 48 in a raid group for the 4th time, doesn't mean you're getting any more than a single contribution point. (A rank 0 level 60 killing another rank 0 level 60, dealing 100% of the damage to that player, not in a party, gets 166 points for the first kill.)

 
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21. Re: No subject Apr 25, 2005, 10:50 Zathrus
 
True in a technical sense, but as a software developer I am painfully aware that new feature = new bugs.

Yup. I'm one as well

I do wonder what kind of internal QA process they have -- it seems to suck. Badly. For instance, they restructured Andorhol in Western Plaguelands this patch. I like the new design -- it's much more player friendly. They also reworked several of the quests in there (namely anything to do with Araj, the big badass L61 Lich, and the Annals of Darrowshire quest in the townhall). All of them are now broken -- the things you're supposed to destroy to summon Araj don't exist. Or they don't repop or something. I've got two quests involving him that I cannot do.

And yeah, got hit by the Landslide bug myself last patch. It was reported on Test too, but Blizzard didn't see fit to fix it before going live with the patch. Again, I really don't understand Blizzard's mentality here. Wonder how many people hearth'd out of Maur because they didn't know the logout/cancel trick.

 
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20. No subject Apr 25, 2005, 10:39 Exitium
 
The honor system is the best thing to ever happen to WoW. Bring on the PVP, Blizzard!

 
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19. Re: No subject Apr 25, 2005, 10:18 cecilkorik
 
Please remember that the groups responsible for adding content and the ones responsible for fixing bugs are usually different and often have little to no overlap. Doing one does not necessarily preclude doing the other.

True in a technical sense, but as a software developer I am painfully aware that new feature = new bugs. No exceptions. And in that respect, yes, they really should avoid adding more bugs at this point. (And this is what they've been doing. For example, as of the patch before this one, they added a bug that made, for example, the boss Landslide in Mauradon lock you in one place until you log out and hit cancel(???) which seems to fix it. Obviously you can't do that during battle, so if you have a party with lots of rogues and warriors, and he aggros one of the casters, you're looking at a wipe. Serious issue, IMHO, and it didn't happen two patches ago.

Their torrent client sucks. It's simply inane and absolutely, positively does not work when there is more than 1 PC running WoW behind a firewall. We have to go screw with port assignments every patch in order to get our PCs patched. Stupid. Their repeated refusal to give even the slightest support to 3rd party downloads (except Fileplanet, which is a pay-for service) is also unacceptable. They wouldn't even give a MD5 hash for the last patch so people could download it and make sure the download was valid.

This is my biggest peeve about the game, really. Well, besides the honor system, but I'm not gonna harp on that at the moment. Two things to note: Once one computer has downloaded the patch using their abysmal torrent client, it's simply a somethingsomething-patch.exe in your World of Warcraft dir, and you can copy it to any computer from there and run it with no trouble at all.

Alternately, I've had great luck checking Filerush.com to find *real* torrents for the patch, which I can then download with a *real* bittorrent client that allows me to configure ports.

 
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18. Re: No subject Apr 25, 2005, 08:32 Zathrus
 
Unforently this is the thinking of many players and especially on PVE servers it's affecting people who choose a PVE server cause they do not want to PVP.

Agreed. The issue here is that you're screwing people who don't want to PvP. On a PvE server that's unacceptable.

There are so many OTHER thing this game needs to fix first before adding more content

Please remember that the groups responsible for adding content and the ones responsible for fixing bugs are usually different and often have little to no overlap. Doing one does not necessarily preclude doing the other.

They're not doing a particularly great job in fixing bugs though. They've pretty much licked the server stability problems (mostly; the AH/mail lag is still there though), so maybe they'll fix the long outstanding bugs next.

Like the bug that after you complete a quest you freeze up

Never seen that.

And a file check system, to repair/redownload corrupt files

I'm pretty sure this is available somewhere, although it's not done automatically anytime except during patching (thankfully).

the patch system for WoW is far from Ideal.

Their torrent client sucks. It's simply inane and absolutely, positively does not work when there is more than 1 PC running WoW behind a firewall. We have to go screw with port assignments every patch in order to get our PCs patched. Stupid. Their repeated refusal to give even the slightest support to 3rd party downloads (except Fileplanet, which is a pay-for service) is also unacceptable. They wouldn't even give a MD5 hash for the last patch so people could download it and make sure the download was valid.

And I agree with Ray -- their tech support is abysmal. I though EQ's was bad, but Blizzard brings it down to a whole new level. It's simply not even worth trying to get support on an in-game problem.

That said, I still think it's the best MMORPG yet and enjoy playing it. I haven't had many in-game problems (the biggest I can remember is my wife not being able to get a quest when the rest of us could -- absolutely no reason for it either), and now that the server problems are mostly fixed it's fun.

 
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17. Re: No subject Apr 25, 2005, 08:16 Zathrus
 
There are too many problems with penalizing killing of lower level players

Nothing that isn't solvable.

Many lowbies can kill a higher player, especially if he can't fight back.

You setup the system so that you get dishonor points for killing a "grey" player unless they attack you first. Then you don't have this problem, or most of the other problems you listed.

As for AEs, you simply make it so that AEs don't affect greys unless they've already attacked you. And no, this isn't particularly difficult to code, and there's already some support for this kind of thing (AEs not affecting totems for instance).

Possibly the only valid point you have is the auto-retarget thing. But even that's fixable, and would probably have to be done to support the concept at all.

The bigger problem with this idea is making it sensible in the default UI. My initial guess is to simply change the name coloring of anyone who attacks you from grey to green. Then players (and UI mods like DefendYourself) can determine whether or not they should attack a lowbie that's nearby.

 
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16. Re: No subject Apr 25, 2005, 01:28 Undead Scottsman
 
People forget that the crew that was under Bill Roper making good games at Blizzard are all gone now.
No they're not; Over half the original StarCraft team is still their, including Lead Programmer Bob Fitch and founders Allen Adhem and Mike Morhaim. Bill Roper was never the head honcho at Blizzard; he was just a higher up executive and a great face for the company.

 
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15. Re: No subject Apr 25, 2005, 00:44 The Half Elf
 
I play on Khadgar (PVE) one of the servers that was down the first week of launch and I think that has been the saving grace of all the lag horror stories I've been hearing from other servers.

The only thing the 'Honor' System does on a PVE server is turn it into a PVP server. And my main is a 41 Shaman. Ogrimmar was zerged over and over the first 2 days, and then the zerging diminished. That's not to say that a group of Alliance (30 or so) at lvl 60 still can zerg OGR at off peak times with extreme ease.

1) They need to add a heavy penalty to dishonor. The reason for this is that anyplace that can be attacked has been attacked and people (myself included) have been screwed when we go to take a flight path or turn in a quest to find the NPC is dead, and continually gets ganked each time it respawns. Why? Cause why not? If I don't get a penalty for the dishonorable kill, why not screw over my enemy a little bit more. Unforently this is the thinking of many players and especially on PVE servers it's affecting people who choose a PVE server cause they do not want to PVP.

2)Yes a lower player can kill a higher player, but also the honor system isn't just about 1 point for 1 kill. It all comes down to a percentage of damage done for a total of points to add to the collective pot. But there are other factors to take into consideration when lower players are attacking higher ones. For example I was on with my lvl 18 rogue and a 51 warrior and I were sitting around bored and joking around he wanted to due. So I said sure as long as ya strip nakkid so i at least had the illusion of winning heh. Well with him nakkid and not using anything but unarmed I got him to half health. Now if ya took this senario and applied it to PVP, I would have been 1 maybe 2 hits before he killed me, and the chances of me actually landing a hit would have been low to nonexistant. Why? The Gear. From Armor to stat increases to skills etc, if I hit him once, MAYBE twice I woulda been lucky. Now even against a cloth wearer, i might have gotten in a few shots, but with how PVP is going I would be a lemming throwing myself at an elephant.

3)I sorta have to agree with ya Dan. It seems that every time there is a disruption in gameplay ala the servers going down, Blizzard throws something else at the players to calm them down, and I think this was their biggest mistake yet. I beleive the pvp Honor System should ONLY apply to Battlegrounds, unless it's on PVP servers.

4)There are so many OTHER thing this game needs to fix first before adding more content. Like the bug that after you complete a quest you freeze up (meaning you can no longer talk or interact with anything, but you can see other people move, chat etc). And a file check system, to repair/redownload corrupt files. One time I noticed at the Crossroads that there were no street/path textures, and looked over at my roomates computer and he had them. Turns out that when I scandisk'd the hard drive it moved the file and I ended up reinstalling everything and repatching everything, and the patch system for WoW is far from Ideal.

5) Mages have AOE spells but they also have single target spells as well. And anyone who gets caught in them reguardless of level should be effected if they are flagged. We have alot of whining on our Server forum about people getting ganked and corpse camped etc. Well guess what folks all's fair in love and war. If you flagged then expect to be attacked, and being 41 (and a Tauren) I am useually killed pretty fast for 2 reasons. First off I'm the biggest player model on the horde side, so I am easier to target, and secondly not being 60 it's pretty easy to kill me fairly fast.

All in all, I think it's a good game, but the Honor system is bringing out the worst in griefers etc cause there is no reason not to do it. Until the Dishonor system has a heavy penalty it's just as chaotic on PVE servers as it is on PVP ones. And in the end the only person it's screwing over are the people who pay monthly and choose a PVE server cause they didn't want to deal with with PVP.

 
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"I've never seen a feature like this before. It warms your ass. It's wonderful" -Walter Bishop
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14. No subject Apr 24, 2005, 22:27 Xero
 
I was wondering, is the PVE servers any better since they can't attack you openly as they can in PVP correct? Cause I'm in a PVP server right now with a lvl 56 rogue and it's nonstop raping.

Face your Fears, Live your Dreams, No Fear -Manny Pacquiao
 
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Currently playing: Skyrim
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13. Re: No subject Apr 24, 2005, 20:24 Tom
 
Mmn... I'm feeling better and better about having leveled up to 60 with one char, going on a few instance runs, and then quitting and cancelling my account.

Have fun guys!!!

 
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12. Re: No subject Apr 24, 2005, 18:29 Quan
 
I haven't played this game properly since the ' honor ' patch came in. Either the server is down, theres to much lag, the quest NPCS are dead or I am getting killed every 5 steps and corpse camped for hours by a level 60 out for honor kills ( I am in the magic level 48 - 59 level where they get points from doing this ).

These experances are from diffrent servers, PvE and PvP.

Kalgan responce is just as good as his Warriors responce. I tell you, blizzard are running out of carpet to sweep this crap under.

 
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11. Re: my issue Apr 24, 2005, 18:23 ExcessDan
 
I thought my internet was causing lag problems but now that my Internet connection is partially fixed and I get 4Mbps. Logged into WoW tonight with a 3500 ping and it made it down to around 800 when I quit.

Mayor Dan
------------
"Take me Jesus, take me Allah, rape me in my room
Torch our days in paranoia while we gorge ourselves on gloom"
 
ExcessDan
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10. Re: No subject Apr 24, 2005, 18:18 Xero
 
Yeah man, I wasn't really aiming it towards people fusturated about high lvls killing low lvls or low lvl NPCs. I would sure hate it when a high lvl would gank me at many lvls below even though it's harely happened. Though my main point is that it takes away abit of fun and excitement you get out of killing a blacksmith or some important NPC. It's not like they don't respawn within afew minutes anyways. It adds to the enjoyment of a town raid.

Face your Fears, Live your Dreams, No Fear -Manny Pacquiao
 
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Currently playing: Skyrim
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9. my issue Apr 24, 2005, 18:09 Mega Fantasy Sci-Fi PostApocalyptic MMORTRPFPS 9000
 
..is that it's pretty much unplayable for me. As a warrior, I have to be within melee range to do any damage. However, it's so laggy that I constantly hear "Too far away" "I need to get closer" over and over and over. My favorite is when someone gets rooted and I try to attack, but still get the message even when I'm standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE PLAYER! Mainly I blame the people on my server. If you're not in the Crossroads or Tarren Mill, there's noone to fight. It's like these are the only two areas that exist in the game.

 
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8. Bah Apr 24, 2005, 17:15 Ray Marden
 
Kilrogg is making a clear split; those that PvP endlessly and those that still want/need their stuff from the instances. On a side note, it is incredibly hard to get any low level support on either server I play on.

Blizzard seems to put forth the impression that it is completely unaware of the blatant imbalances between PvE, group raiding, and PvP. The battlegrounds actually scare me quite a bit; it seems like Blizzard is just throwing in the towel and telling everybody to beat on each other all day long.

Meanwhile, I have yet to see anything about a follow up patch to fix the newly broken/borked items in this patch.

As of right now, I am locked out of MC due to the months-old lockout bug. I spent no more than thirty seconds in the instance showing another player the entrance and now i cannot go on any MC raids for seven days. I asked Blizzard to reset my timer given the circumstances and that was a fiasco in and of itself. Ultimately, out of THREE GMs, not a single one could help me. The first two were so stupid as to even say this was how the game was designed to work (yes, there is a lockout, but not at the very entrance;) only the third one admitted to the (already known about) issue with the lockout and had no idea about a possible fix.

Gee, this problem has been around how long now? And Blizzard can't fix it? Or...if there is a known, blatant bug in the system, why not just disable it? Oh, right, it's Blizzard.

Meanwhile, there is an issue with text chat where characters are automatically changed by the system. Since I already know that (going to ignore you) technical support on the forums won't deal with any in-game issues, I proceeded to submit a ticket to the (never actually helping with anything) in-game GMs. However, you cannot even submit an in-game technical support ticket; it tells you to call the company (yeah right,) post in the bug forum (which is never acknowledged,) or to e-mail the wowtech@blizzard.com address.

Ultimately, I decided to e-mail tech support directly. Done, right? Not quite...after nearly two days of waiting, tech support e-mailed me back, but told me it could not help me at all. As this was an in-game technical issue, e-mail suppport told me that I needed to submit a ticket to an in-game technical support GM.

Gee, did I not already do that? Did Blizzard not block me from doing that? Did Blizzard not give me e-mail as one of my three solutions? And what about the valid technical issue I brought up?

This shit with this company just goes on and on. I like the game, but the technical support is a joke comprised of idiots.
And that is being nicer than I should be.
/Bah,
Ray

-----
Blizzard's response to a months-old problem, still unresolved:
We are aware of the situation you reported, and we are currently working on a solution.
http://users.ign.com/collection/RayMarden
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7. Re: No subject Apr 24, 2005, 17:13 MacD
 
"obvious to anyone with an IQ larger than a sea sponge that WoW is a failure that's only getting progressively worse."

Of course, what with WoW having the largest userbase of any MMORPG out there (except some korean MMORPG) and no signs of that dropping, you must be right!

 
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6. Re: No subject Apr 24, 2005, 16:38 Halsy
 
Kalgan's a talentless hack and idiot to boot. It's obvious to anyone who's PnPed/MUDed/MOGed for any length of time that he's clueless.

People forget that the crew that was under Bill Roper making good games at Blizzard are all gone now. These aren't the same people and it's more than obvious to anyone with an IQ larger than a sea sponge that WoW is a failure that's only getting progressively worse.


"Martin Luther was a German fellow who pinned a note on a church door that said, 'Hang on a minute!' Actually, he was German so it said, 'Ein minuten bitte!'"
- Eddie Izzard
 
"And then, suddenly and without warning, it turned into a real-life case of hungry, hungry hippos."
- Stephen Colbert
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5. Re: No subject Apr 24, 2005, 16:12 Wazootyman
 
There are too many problems with penalizing killing of lower level players.
  • Many lowbies can kill a higher player, especially if he can't fight back. If you want to track who attacked first, things get extremely complicated very quickly. What if the low level leaves combat (vanish, FD)? What if a low level heals another low level who is fighting a high level? What about groups? Will potential valid low level kills have to be tracked for every single player on every single lowbie? Etc...

  • Mages AoE all the time... if a lowbie runs into it, should the mage be penalized? In a large battle, should mages have to check every single member of the enemy mob before launching an AoE assault?

  • In a large scale battle, a level 30's DoT, flare or farie fire is just as deadly to a rogue as a level 60's... stealth is essential to survival as a rogue. Will the said rogue be unable to retailiate against low level unstealthers?

  • Players auto change targets after a kill... one hit can kill a lowbie... A high level surrounded with low levels would be able to greif the unsuspecting. Similarly, it would make the honorable kill much more difficult to target (whereas he can snipe from behind his "wall o dishonor".


  • Also - claiming that honor without dishonor is meaningless is an invalid argument. Its like saying "gaining experience from killing monsters is meaningless without a way to lose experience"... I think many people misunderstand "honor"... Honor is about being honored with your faction (as a successful fighter), not being "honorable".

     
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