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Carmack on Retirement

Game almost over for Doom creator? is a pot-stirring article on CNN Money speculating on John Carmack's future as a game developer in light of his other burgeoning interests like rocketeering and fatherhood. The article features new quotes along with a recent comment on Armadillo's site to build a case for hypothesizing that id's next project may be the programmer's last.

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38. Re: What will happen first? Sep 10, 2004, 04:27 Dante_uk
 
How long has DNF been in dev-land?
How long ago did they start on their own engine?
Now they say the engine is "Doom3 like" so let's see,
Carmack had the Doom3 engine running over 3 years ago and as only been trimming and adding little bits as new hardware comes out. So it basically took him a year maybe 2 to get Doom3 to point of running stuff like the E3 demos. The rest of the time was all down to the artists and mappers having to create 3/4 textures per every surface in the game.

So, is the DNF engine done? and if so how long ago?
If it took id 4 years to make 20+ levels for Doom3 when they knew exactly what they needed to do, they how long is it likey to take for DNF to be done? being as they changed engines 2 or 3 times.

DNF has to have realtime lighting otherwise it will look dated like CS:S does and no amount of stress test shader demos will help.


<QUOTE>Creston

Edit : as for the demise of OpenGL, shrug. Would anyone really notice? Five years ago, OpenGL was noticeably ahead of Direct3D, but is there any noticeable difference between the two nowadays? I play D3D and OpenGL games and 99% of the time, I don't even know what's running. It wasn't until KotOR started choking on the new Catalysts (nice fucking going ATI, and it's still not fixed) that I realised it was running on OpenGL.

Doom 3 would have looked just as good, and probably ran just as good / crap (dependant on your own point of view) if it ran on D3D. </QUOTE>

It doesn't matter if D3D looks or peforms as good as OpenGL the problem is Bill Gates and MS will have total control over another area of Computing - ie Graphics.
Also no more Linux/Mac port of games, till someone have write a version of D3D for Linux AND not get sued be M$ for it.
This comment was edited on Sep 10, 04:32.
 
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37. What will happen first? Sep 10, 2004, 03:44 FRAGaLOT
 
Ok we should make bets on what will happen first. Will JC retire BEFORE or AFTER Duke Nukem (taking) Forever will be "done"

__ FRAGaLOT
http://home.comcast.net/~zalle2/blog.htm
 
__ FRAGaLOT
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36. No subject Sep 10, 2004, 00:56 mystery8
 
Dante_uk said:
Source engine is just a tarted up extension of the Quake engine with shader support and the Havok physics engine thrown in for good measure

I thought the Source engine was built by Valve from scratch and had nothing left of the Quake engine?

It'd suck if Carmack retired, but I could understand.

This comment was edited on Sep 10, 00:59.
 
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35. Re: Sep 9, 2004, 23:44 Rseman
 
Anyone, whether it be JC or not, who can create a spacecraft that is as easily useable as the common automobile would make anything NASA or BOEING have done, little more than items for the history books.

There are shitloads of advancements in any industry, still to be made. I couldn't give a rats ass about spacecraft, I want the teleporter from Star Trek.... I want the ability to reconfigure the missus as seven of nine, too:P

For those unimpressed with DooM3 or its engine... I think what works against it is features, the amazing things don't stand out like in Far Cry... it looks normal. Personally, I find that far more impressive.

Oh, and I want game reviews back at gracelessland!!!


This comment was edited on Sep 9, 23:46.
 
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34. Re: Get out on top Sep 9, 2004, 23:24 Riley Pizt
 
In contrast he's attempting to do stuff with his rockets that could be 10 years ahead of some of some of his competition...Coming down from those lofty heights of comparison, if Carmack wants to make (another) profound difference to his world, I think he should pour his energies into rocketeering.
I couldn't disagree more. Why Carmack's work in amateur/private rocket building may be impressive in that limited scope, it cannot hold a candle to the accomplishments made in the field of astronautics by NASA and other countries' space agencies or even those by large corporations like Boeing. If Carmack wants to advance the field of astronautics, he should join NASA. Otherwise he is not advancing anything and is simply reinventing the wheel.

This comment was edited on Sep 9, 23:25.
 
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33. No subject Sep 9, 2004, 23:17 Steele Johnson
 
it's just a matter of time before graphics sdk's and video cards do all the rendering work. He has done nothing but 3d engines his whole career. In my opinion, that's good for us gamers, because developers will start putting more work towards gameplay and content than having to write and rewrite 3D engines every game. John just likes the tech... and now that he doesn't need to come up with the latest tech, it's time to move on and do something else. Maybe he'll have time to play games himself (in which he doesn't do very often). Either way, he has left his mark in history. But technology always evolves and replaces work that once took a year to create, to something that only takes a day.

 
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32. Re: Whodda guessed .... Sep 9, 2004, 21:58 runnerct32
 
I played Serious Sam First Encounter and I thought it was an awesome game...running and gunning pure fun i have the second encounter have to load that up and play it

 
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31. Re: Whodda guessed .... Sep 9, 2004, 21:48 tron
 
all we have left is lithtech and the Unreal engine coming out periodically with new stuff. I'm not counting Source or Crytek engines, since I have no idea if they'll keep coming out with new versions or not.

what about the Serious Engine? imo it is the second best engine out there... and the new one looks to be amazing. im not sure why more games weren't made on Serious Engine, probably due to the "newness" of it. i'm counting on the new engine to be a pleasant surprise.

and am i the only one not super-impressed with the Crytek engine? to me it was like a serious sam 1.5 engine... yeah it is cool and all, and the water looks fantastic, but it just didn't seem to be all that "solid" and not much new tech was in it either. the D3 engine at least took a huge technical leap (and anyone who bitches about poly counts or pixelated textures - c'mon, that is NOT new tech, and if the game did have high polys and higher rez textures, you'd all be complaining that the system requirements were out of reach and the frame rates sucked) making it extremely immersive despite it's so-called afore-mentioned "flaws".

carmack and croteam - the best
unreal, crytek, lithtech - very good, but not great
source - remains to be seen, hopefully up there with carmack and croteam.

just my 2-cents.
 
- tron -
---
"tron is big and tron is full of action... it's a hell of a ride!"
-from the Tron 2.0 box
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30. Re: Whodda guessed .... Sep 9, 2004, 21:17 Creston
 
There's no denying the incredible talent of John Carmack or anyone else at id, but all they've done is run-and-gun shooters that run off the same formula as every other one out there.

They've never claimed to do anything else either. Why is it so upsetting to people that id chooses to basically make the same sort of game over and over again? Fuck, EA's been doing that for just as long, and nobody bitches at them for it.
Also, MAKING ENGINES is what Carmack does. He doesn't do levels, or graphics, or sounds, or gameplay. He does ENGINES. That nobody else at id can ever come up with anything truly original to do with his engines is not his fault.

We need new game ideas before we need yet another engine re-vamp.

SOMEONE's got to make those engines though. No new engines eventually means no new games. Just look at the consoles if you want proof for that. Eventually the usability of a technology dwindles, and something new needs to come out. Without id creating a new engine, all we have left is lithtech and the Unreal engine coming out periodically with new stuff. I'm not counting Source or Crytek engines, since I have no idea if they'll keep coming out with new versions or not.

Creston

Edit : as for the demise of OpenGL, shrug. Would anyone really notice? Five years ago, OpenGL was noticeably ahead of Direct3D, but is there any noticeable difference between the two nowadays? I play D3D and OpenGL games and 99% of the time, I don't even know what's running. It wasn't until KotOR started choking on the new Catalysts (nice fucking going ATI, and it's still not fixed) that I realised it was running on OpenGL.

Doom 3 would have looked just as good, and probably ran just as good / crap (dependant on your own point of view) if it ran on D3D.

The demise of OpenGL in games wouldn't be the thing that I'd find the most upsetting if Carmack decides to quit.

This comment was edited on Sep 9, 21:22.
 
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29. Not exactly news Sep 9, 2004, 21:12 Creston
 
Didn't Carmack say this three or so years ago already? That he was getting tired of facing the same problems over and over again, and that after Doom 3 he'd do one more engine, and that was it?

Seriously, how long could it stay interesting for the man? I know I get seriously bored with my job inside of a year, he's been building engines, what, 12+ years now?

Creston


 
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28. Re: Get out on top Sep 9, 2004, 20:20 cia
 
Yaaaaa!!!! No more overhyped tech demos from id!!!

Long live GLQuakeWorld - his crowning achievement. A gaming legend, his recent foray into single-player gaming was tarnishing his otherwise splendid contributions to gaming.

 
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27. Re: Get out on top Sep 9, 2004, 20:05 Kevlar
 
Whether you like id's games or not, I can't see any people beyond Carmack that have singularly pushed the technology industry to such extents. I hope he sticks around for longer to keep pushing Sweeney, Valve and others to keep up with (or surpass) him.

 
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26. Re: Get out on top Sep 9, 2004, 19:21 MyRealName
 
In contrast he's attempting to do stuff with his rockets that could be 10 years ahead of some of some of his competition.

Source? No, seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. If that is indeed true, I want to read about it. I checked out the armadillo site, but didn't see anything similar (admittedly, I mostly looked at vids and pics).


 
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25. Re: Bill Gates Has His Fingers Crossed Sep 9, 2004, 19:08 Dante_uk
 
Epic have an OpenGL version of their engine and released good Linux/Mac ports of UR 2003/2004.
Wasn't Serious Sam openGL?

Source engine is just a tarted up extension of the Quake engine with shader support and the Havok physics engine thrown in for good measure. Gabe is a bed fellow of Bill and ATI so the chances of a OpenGL version or Mac/Linux versions of the client are very slim. I honestly thought they put up the wrong screenshots when I saw those CS:S pics.
I don't think it's going to matter how many flashy shader effect they put in a HL2 level, the lighting will still look wrong and dated(+brighter ) now I'm used to Doom3.

OpenGL cannot and must NOT die. More people should complain louder about the lack of Linux/Mac ports of games. I wish projects like winex would stop so game developers don't use it as an excuse. Carmack has proved time and again that OpenGL is as good as or better (at least faster) than D3D and that will always be true while Nvidia can write their own OpenGL drivers. If ATI's driver team actually succeed in rewriting their OpenGL driver so it gives them comparible performance to Nvidias, then hopefully OpenGL future will be a little safer.

Doom3 may not have anything really new in the gameplay department but that didn't stop me from enjoying it.


 
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24. Re: Bill Gates Has His Fingers Crossed Sep 9, 2004, 18:04 seenitall
 
Yes, the worst thing about the retirement of Carmack would be the end of OpenGL. Who else would dare use it and defy Gates?

Don't get me wrong, Carmack is a genius, but if you asked me honestly, can the world live without the gameplay of D3?

I think it can.

 
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23. Re: Bill Gates Has His Fingers Crossed Sep 9, 2004, 17:57 Crunch
 
There might be some truth in that unfortunately.

 
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22. Bill Gates Has His Fingers Crossed Sep 9, 2004, 16:23 theAntiELVIS
 
Carmack is the Numero Uno proponent of OpenGL over DirectX. I'm sure Gates has considered having him whacked more than once....but it would be so obvious who done it.

If Carmack retires, Microsoft will have the biggest obstacle to 100 percent dominance of the graphic API market removed. And that means Apple and Linux become that much more marginalized.

-tAE-

 
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21. Re: Whodda guessed .... Sep 9, 2004, 16:22 Tango
 
it has a similar "feel" to it, but still doesn't seem as real as id engines. i am always able to "lose myself" in a id engine game, and forget that i am playing a game.... most other engines fail to do that.
Agreed, you always know a Carmack engine. That's not to take away from Far-Cry or Unreal, but you just do. It's like you always know a German car. But, Source looks promising, if only because it will be rendering 'real' world locations as opposed to Mars bases. Gearbox's Brothers in Arms engine looks stunning. Unreal 3's tech demo was equally amazing.
And, as you say, he's committed to the next id game so at least that's another 5 years.

 
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20. Re: Get out on top Sep 9, 2004, 16:11 Ihya
 
Once upon a time I'd have been aghast by this news. But he said it himself recently. At present, he makes game engines that someone else would get around to making in about 2 years (I'm not sure if it's that even, the Far Cry engine in certain technological respects was as impressive as Doom 3 IMHO). In contrast he's attempting to do stuff with his rockets that could be 10 years ahead of some of some of his competition.

A good measure of genius is asking how long would it have taken for someone else to have figured your amazing idea out. How far were you head of your times? People like Newton and Einstein* propelled their respective fields forwards by decades. Coming down from those lofty heights of comparison, if Carmack wants to make (another) profound difference to his world, I think he should pour his energies into rocketeering. Best of luck to him.

____
*So long as you airbrush names like Hooke and Michelson out of the annals of history that is...

 
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19. Re: Whodda guessed .... Sep 9, 2004, 16:10 Warhawk
 
What the industry and gamers need is good, original, innovative games, not just the same thing over again with a new engine to make everyone go "Oooooh shiny things!" again. There's no denying the incredible talent of John Carmack or anyone else at id, but all they've done is run-and-gun shooters that run off the same formula as every other one out there. We need new game ideas before we need yet another engine re-vamp.

I think you need both, actually.

New graphics and special effects drive movie makers to make similar movies over and over again with the same theme/format, and we like those enough to keep going to see them. I, for one, LIKE the FPS format and enjoyed Doom 3. I also enjoyed Quake I&2 and HL and JK2. They are all basically the same thing. If you think its boring or "not enough":

a. don't buy it
b. do something about it yourself

What are you doing about it?

*************
* Warhawk *
*************

The new Quake-43 game blows my mind. It is even better than Super Turbo Turkey Puncher.
Doom 3
 

Have I lied to you? I mean, in this room? Trust me, leave that thing alone. - GLaDOS

Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away? - Ripley
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38 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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