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43. Re: Original Half Life and Steam Aug 31, 2004, 11:08 Warhawk
 
Yeah, I want to try that, but the older stuff - probably not, unless there is something compelling about it.

Replaying HL sounded good until I fired it up.

Replaying it with better graphics and other tweaks, probably.


************
*Warhawk*
************

The new Quake-43 game blows my mind. It is even better than Super Turbo Turkey Puncher.
Doom 3
 

Have I lied to you? I mean, in this room? Trust me, leave that thing alone. - GLaDOS

Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away? - Ripley
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42. Re: Original Half Life and Steam Aug 31, 2004, 10:01 Terpfen
 
You might like HL: Source.

 
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41. Original Half Life and Steam Aug 30, 2004, 23:39 Warhawk
 
OK, I bit the bullet and installed Steam tonight (was going to wait for HL2, but, WTF, why wait?

Typed in my HL key and it registered me for the Platinum Pack (even though I only bought the original game) but the servers were busy and I couldn't download.

Came back a while later and it DL OK, decided to fire up HL and play a bit.

I don't think I can do it.

I forgot how plain (by todays standard) the game was. I also feel like I'm sprinting and everyone else is in molasses. I feel like I'm skidding around corners like in a cartoon. I'm even at 16x12 @32 bit - I know it's old, but, man, this might be too much.

Is it worth it to fire it up and play through again? I loved the game the first time through, but I think I'll wait for HL2 - it just feels funny so far, and I've only picked up my bio-suit.

I'm not an on-line gamer, much more a LAN kinda guy, and w/o AI for multiplayer maps (right?), I don't think I'll play the older stuff.

************
*Warhawk*
************

The new Quake-43 game blows my mind. It is even better than Super Turbo Turkey Puncher.
Doom 3
 

Have I lied to you? I mean, in this room? Trust me, leave that thing alone. - GLaDOS

Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away? - Ripley
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40. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 22:33 Tehol
 
I for one will never buy an ATI card. Simply because I build computers for a living and I see the problems people have with them all the time

i think you are over reacting. when nvidia's top of the card was geforce4 ti 4600 that time ati came up with dx 9 compatible card like 9500 pro or 9700 pro. buying ati card that time made sense, and nvidia did poorly with their dx 9 card at begining untill 5950 XT; they got their act together.

my point is dont be brand whore. u dont buy video card because two years ago they (nvidia or ati) made good video card. it matters what are they donig now. it seems geforce 6800 GT/ ultra is the king now.

bow before the king not the brand

 
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39. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 22:08 Zathrus
 
Same thing with not using AMD processors

Dead on with the ATI cards and bidding war. Intel is a bit more complicated -- it's basically a mutually beneficial agreement. Dell gets cheap CPUs from Intel in large part because they only use Intel. Dell is also pretty well guaranteed to get the lions share of any new CPU parts that come out. Until recently that's been pretty much a win-win situation.

It figures ATI was fudging their Doom3 performance

No they weren't. Read the damn article. It was a relatively minor bug in the driver. Will their performance drop when they fix it? Yeah. By 1-2 fps tops. Ooooh.

It's somewhat disappointing that with DX9.0 nvidia cards get such a performance hit, but I expected it. I mean how many millions of dolors did ATI give to valve again?

Yeah... that's why they have the same performance hit in every single true DX9 game. Because ATI paid off Valve. Or maybe it's because nVidia chose not to participate in the DX9 planning with MS and went off on their own tangent -- creating a generation of cards that did things fundamentally different from how DX9 wanted them done.

I do absolutely believe that with GI and Shader 3.0 that nvidia cards would perform better because nvidias DX9c (the new M$ standard, which ATI does not support) are far better then ATI's current DX9 support

Except, of course, in DX9 testing the ATI and nVidia cards are performing appropriately to their cost. Yeah, I'd recommend the 6800GT over the X800 XT because <5% FPS isn't worth 25% more cash, but the X800 XT is faster than the GT and about the same speed (actually a bit faster than) the equally priced 6800 Ultra. As for the 9.0C shader -- before you get all fanboy here, go look at exactly what the differences are between the 9.0B and 9.0C shaders. The answer? Virtually nothing in either performance or visual quality.

[The X800 XT] gets outperformed in most tests [by the 6800GT]

Ok. Keep ignoring all the tests by unbiased sites that don't just focus on Doom3. Yes, the nVidia cards are faster than the ATI cards in D3, but that's purely because of drivers, not because of silicon. It's long been known that the ATI OpenGL drivers suck.

even visually in terms of AA and AS

Load of crap. ATI has long had the superior image quality. Hell, even in 2D their stock filtering is superior to nVidia's (nowhere close to Matrox though, which is sad for both ATI and nVidia).

You can get a damn nice machine at quite a good price AND with financing now by going through alienware these days

Uh... righto. What financial fantasy land do you live in? Alienware is a massive rip off. And financing? For a computer? You're talking about something that devalues by 50% the second you open the box. Financing a computer is the epitomy of being an idiot with your money.

because you cannot completely remove parts of the drivers

I'm sorry you've never heard of Driver Cleaner. It works.

Oh, and for the record -- it's nVidia that does a shitty job cleaning up their drivers. ATI at least got that part right (which, frankly, is one of the few things done properly about their drivers. Their drivers do suck compared to nVidia. Far more graphical glitches in games, and while they have a nifty GPU crash recovery feature, there's a reason they need it -- their drivers crash more).

 
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38. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 19:41 MyRealName
 
Hi again 4D! It's good to see you single me out again; I feel so honored! I was wondering when you'd pop up from our last evil confrontation. *cough* pansy.

The article was read. If you notice, I did not comment on the article. I made an overstated sarcastic remark about the possibility (heaven forbid!) of ATI fudging drivers once again. My comments are based purely on my, a friend's, and a brother's, experience with ATI products. There are problems with the drivers in every-single-release.

Every single one.

nvidia sucks, too. Feel better? Let these folks get back to talking about personal experience with the issue and figuring out what's going on with what, instead of your pointless, baseless trolling.

Edit: And, 4D - if you can't figure out what I mean by having personal experience, it shows in statements like the following (read carefully):

"I for one will never buy an ATI card. Simply because I build computers for a living and I see the problems people have with them all the time." (Fion)

This comment was edited on Aug 30, 19:43.
 
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37. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 18:25 Awesome Spume
 
My appreciation of Doom's visual quality on my 9800 Pro was hampered by the game being largely in the dark and as played by me scampering backwards at high speed firing blindly. I'm old and panic easily. Artifacts, my ass.

I like Dells for business but I've built about 7 computers in the past two months mainly for fun. It's relatively easy to build a high spec system and have no compatability problems. It's more of a challenge doing it with cheap memory and an obscure motherboard. To each his own. The best way to save money on a high end system is by building a middling system - the difference in performance just isn't worth the premium. Again, to each their own.

 
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36. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 17:56 Fion
 
Dell doesn't sell only ATI's because they are better..they sell them because ATI won the bidding war. They agree'd to pay dell more money to support them alone. Same thing with not using AMD processors.

It's why their 'gaming line' was a desaster. They don't sell nVidia cards (which the fact remains outsell ATI 2 to 1) and they don't sell the worlds best 'gamers' processors.. AMD.

These two articals are very interesting. It figures ATI was fudging their Doom3 performance because their OpenGL drivers suck. Mind if they didn't.. they would be outperformed even more then already 30+% as well as the low texture quality.

I have a friend who owns a 9800 Pro and I give it to him.. he has better visual quality on a lot of games then me with my 5700U (which is overclocked to about a 5950). But man doom3 doesn't look nearly as good on his machine and he gets about 3/4 the frames I get.. at medium quality 800x600. I run High 10x7 everything maxed.

It's somewhat disappointing that with DX9.0 nvidia cards get such a performance hit, but I expected it. I mean how many millions of dolors did ATI give to valve again? I don't remember the figure. I do absolutely believe that with GI and Shader 3.0 that nvidia cards would perform better because nvidias DX9c (the new M$ standard, which ATI does not support) are far better then ATI's current DX9 support. Thats right.. nvidia made the right decision to sacrifice a little die space to include next gen graphics techniques and engines. It's probably why Troika uses nvidia in making Vampire: Bloodlines, which is a Source Engine game.. the game probably uses Shader 3.0 and CI.

For the guy who said he hasn't seen any comparisons between 6800/GT outdoes the x800 Pro, look at ANY current Head to Head man. Unless the website has 'ati' or 'radion' in it's name.. it gets outperformed in most tests.. even visually in terms of AA and AS. However.. ATI cards do seem to take less of a hit from AA and AS at extremely high framerates.. but who plays their games at 20x17?

As to the guy about dell. DON"T buy a dell then. You can get a damn nice machine at quite a good price AND with financing now by going through alienware these days. You WILL have problems with that video card. As you yourself said. Just in the last 6 months 3 of my friends with ATI cards have had problems with almost every single game to come out. One even had to backtrack on his ATI drivers.. which is a SERIOUS pain in the arse and in some cases can completely corrupt some things under WinXP.

I for one will never buy an ATI card. Simply because I build computers for a living and I see the problems people have with them all the time. Plus if I ever did, and then bought a Geforce card, I'd have to entirely redo my system, because you cannot completely remove parts of the drivers.. which can cause some serious conflicts.. especailly if you are upgrading to a card from another manufacturer.
This comment was edited on Aug 30, 18:00.
 
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35. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 17:42 Gandhi
 
It's just too much of a bother for me. It's not something I'm at all interested in.

When I was looking for a whole new system about a year ago, I looked at Dell and other "dedicated" gaming computer makers. Like someone said earlier, for the high-end gaming PCs, you can save about a $1000 by building your own.

I saved about $1300 compared to going with Dell, and I knew precisly what parts were going into the system, right down to the CPU cooler and case fans. Never had to worry about compatibility issues. It took me about three hours to put all the parts together for my first-ever self assembled rig (took longer to set up and tweak Windows to my liking, not to mention downloading all the security fixes). Having been through the process once, I estimate I could probably assemble a rig in an hour - assuming it is a quality case made to industry-standard specs.

Dell makes good computers, but you really can save a LOT of money by building your own high-end system. It all depends on how much your time is worth. Nothing wrong with going with a Dell if you rather spend your time doing other stuff. Nothing to do with what l33t 14 year olds think of your PC expertise, and more to do with how much you want to spend on a system and how you want to go about getting a topline rig.

You cannot make anything fool-proof. The fools are too inventive
 
Avatar 11944
 
You cannot make anything fool-proof. The fools are too inventive

GW: Tr Gandhi (Ra), Shiva Sung (Mo), Mangal Pandey (Ne), Rana Pratap Singh (Wa), Boddhi Satwa (Ri), Bhagat Singh (De), Bahadur Shastri (Pa)
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34. Nice going ATI Aug 30, 2004, 17:37 Creston
 
I read something on... eehhh.. either anandtech or tomshardware today in which they asked Carmack about how both companies "fudge" with bi/trilinear filtering, how they basically both do brilinear filtering, and he said that they're both guilty of it.

No more High Road for you, ATI!

Creston

As a result, DOOM 3's behavior exposes a bug in ATI's OpenGL driver. The driver isn't reacting properly to DOOM 3's requests

Shit, I don't think that's a problem just restricted to Doom 3. When has ATI's OpenGL "driver" (and I use the term loosely) ever performanced even slightly above absolutely crap?

Hey ATI, how's that KOTOR fix coming along? It's only been, oh, 8 months now.

This comment was edited on Aug 30, 17:43.
 
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33. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 17:12 Tango
 
but they pretty much laugh at everything anyway.
Lol so true.

 
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32. Build your own Aug 30, 2004, 17:11 Warhawk
 
My first build was a "re-build" of my Gateway 486DX/2-66 computer when the MB died - they sent out a new MB for me to do it (at my request). After that experience, I knew I would never buy my own computer again. I am on my 3rd hand-built computer right now (usually every 3-4 years between projects with minor upgrades at times). I have significantly fewer problems with hand-built compared to the pre-built ones.

Definitely do-able for someone who can do the things you listed. You may end up with another hobby if you don't watch out....

Edit - Ratty beat me posting.

************
*Warhawk*
************

The new Quake-43 game blows my mind. It is even better than Super Turbo Turkey Puncher.
Doom 3
This comment was edited on Aug 30, 17:13.
 

Have I lied to you? I mean, in this room? Trust me, leave that thing alone. - GLaDOS

Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away? - Ripley
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31. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 17:07 Ratty
 
Building a desktop PC is not difficult at all.
I did a rotation into our PC unit where I work MANY years ago. This was back in Windows 3.1 days. We tested and repaired PCs, added memory, built them from scratch ... unlike most people I don't panic when I open up a PC. I do pretty much know my way around, though a lot has changed since then and there are a few things I know absolutely nothing about now. It's just too much of a bother for me. It's not something I'm at all interested in. And selecting and buying all the parts, making sure this DVD RW is compatible with this CDROM and that second harddrive. Who needs it. I'd really just rather pay for the thing and wait for it to come in the mail. Let somebody else worry about putting it together. There are a lot of people who just love that kind of thing but I don't.

Unlike Packard Bell and Gateway, Dell has pretty much made a name for itself with high quality gaming PCs, at least when I bought my last Dell. They don't seem to be quite as dedicated nowdays, but I think they're PCs are still pretty damn great for games. I suppose 7337 gamers who overclock everything and supercool with liquid N2 would laugh at that notion, but they pretty much laugh at everything anyway.

 
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30. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 16:12 Gandhi
 
But I don't feel confident enough to build a PC from scratch, plus I don't have the room or the tools.

Building a desktop PC is not difficult at all. Plenty of web sites offer step-by-step advice on how to do it, you don't need a lot of room, and the only tool you need is a screwdriver.

Laptops on the other hand, I leave to the corporate type to make - not messing with that

Edit - Cappy beat me to it

You cannot make anything fool-proof. The fools are too inventive
This comment was edited on Aug 30, 16:14.
 
Avatar 11944
 
You cannot make anything fool-proof. The fools are too inventive

GW: Tr Gandhi (Ra), Shiva Sung (Mo), Mangal Pandey (Ne), Rana Pratap Singh (Wa), Boddhi Satwa (Ri), Bhagat Singh (De), Bahadur Shastri (Pa)
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29. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 16:08 cappy
 
I usually recommend Dells to people who ask me what to buy, since I'm not keen on building one and supporting it for another end-user, particularly since most "support" isn't necessarily related to the hardware, configuration, or drivers. They're certainly better than craputers foisted on an unsuspecting public under other brands, although thankfully Packard-Bell went the way of the dodo. Plus they're more upgrade-friendly than some other computers, such as many Compaq variants that support only half-height AGP cards, etc.

In any event, aside from the customization available, building your own tends to make more and more sense the higher-end you go, where your savings against a comparable retail computer's markup hit $1,000 or more instead of a couple hundred or less.

But don't sell yourself short. If you're comfortable installing cards and drivers and mucking in the registry, you can build one if you ever feel the urge, needing mostly just a flat surface and a Phillips screwdriver (unless someone out there is still using those hex screws).

 
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28. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 15:39 Ratty
 
Or maybe for people that don't want to screw with building a PC.
Heh. I knew I'd get flak for my Dell comment. I do know my way around computer hardware. I can add drivers, new video cards, more memory, etc. I mess with the registry all the time. But I don't feel confident enough to build a PC from scratch, plus I don't have the room or the tools. And I especially don't have the interest. Yeah, people love that kind of stuff but I prefer to do other stuff with my time.

My last PC was a Dell and I really loved it. After almost 5 years I've never had a single problem with it. Plus I get a very nice academic discount so yeah, it's cheap too.

 
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27. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 15:06 Enahs
 
Or maybe for people that don't want to screw with building a PC. There's nothing wrong with Dells, for 90% of the population. As long as you're not an extreme gamer (IE looking for the most expensive video card money can buy, 500 watt PS, 250 gig drive, etc.), they work fine for everyday use. The price isn't bad, either..

And they make kick ass laptops too, "aint" no building one of them on your own.


_____
Enahs
Thatís a deep kiss too, like the Europeans. You know the French they have to unhinge their jaw to show love.
This comment was edited on Aug 30, 15:06.
 
Avatar 15513
 
I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally.
- W. C. Fields
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26. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 14:29 nin
 
Dells are boufgt by people wjo don't know how to install drivers or setup a pc, families with young kids and old people who don't know how to use a PC. Dell forums are hardly the place to juge hardware?!?!?

Or maybe for people that don't want to screw with building a PC. There's nothing wrong with Dells, for 90% of the population. As long as you're not an extreme gamer (IE looking for the most expensive video card money can buy, 500 watt PS, 250 gig drive, etc.), they work fine for everyday use. The price isn't bad, either...




Don't try this at home. Don't try this when you're alone. Don't try this at home. You're gonna hurt yourself. http://www.laptopic.com
This comment was edited on Aug 30, 14:31.
 
http://www.nin.com/pub/tension/
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25. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 14:03 4D-Boxing
 
Zathrus well said! If only everyone in here read the article we would not have so many BS comments.
We have guys like "MyRealName" who obviously did not read the article before posting their comments. We have the superstar "Ratty" who does not know how to set up a PC for gaming talking about Dell forums lol!!!! Dells are boufgt by people wjo don't know how to install drivers or setup a pc, families with young kids and old people who don't know how to use a PC. Dell forums are hardly the place to juge hardware?!?!?

We saw issues with Nvidia and Far cry months ago and they got fixed we saw issues like this concerning Nvidia and/or ATI for the past 3 years. Some people still react like they just saw JFK get shot!

This reminds me of the little looser on tech tv who keeps saying he won't touch intel stuff ever just AMD. If you are that close minded and proud of it, time to make humanity a favor and jump of a cliff!

 
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24. Re: TechReport ATI drivers in Doom3 Aug 30, 2004, 13:36 Zathrus
 
This could easilly be a Doom 3 engine problem and not ATI drivers

Did you even read the article? No? Didn't think so.

It's a driver bug. D3 sets filtering on/off per texture instead of on/off for everything. It's the first game/program to do this apparantly, and it does it because there are a number of textures used for specular lighting and other things that don't need filtering. ATI's OpenGL driver is bugged and doesn't obey this, so it basically does no filtering at all.

And when changing it and doing a vid_restart it will just go back to rendering it incorrectly again.

Nope, same freaking driver bug. There's a slight engine bug in that if you do it at the console it applies filtering universally. That slows things down a lot -- even on nVidia. There's a reason they didn't want filtering on certain textures.

End result? ATI isn't cheating, but they do have a fairly minor bug. They'll fix it, and then everyone can get back to flaming over statistically insignificant differences in frame rates.

Anyone flaming either id or ATI over this is just proving that they're the real flaming idiot.

 
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