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| 173. |
Re: $0.02 |
Apr 15, 2004, 13:41 |
Morlock |
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Your comments about referenda show how little you know about (edit: the practicalities of) the US political system. That sounds like what an oligarch might say, or a gerontocrat, or a krytocrat, meritocrat, plutocrat, technocrat, etc.
What's there to be informed about?
Right, this really is a bit dumb.
Bah, you know as well as I do that the abortion debate doesn't come down to complex international relations, or economic theory, or whatever. It comes down to "does a woman's right to control her body trump a fetus's right to life?" It's a straight moral issue. It doesn't take an expert.
a) about five of us have managed to write probably in the region of 5000 words (not including quotes) on the subject. There's plenty to be informed about, discuss, on this one issue. When you think about every issue there is, that's loads. Most of it has been hot air, you could parse the text and come out with about three concise paragraphs to sum up the relevant bits. We've been talking in circles for most of this discussion.
b) it is as much 'do you want to murder unborn children' as it is 'do you want to allow women the right to terminate an unborn foetus,' as it is 'is a foetus any more a baby than an acorn is an oak tree?' Well, since cutting down an oak tree isn't a capital crime, the analogy's a bit off, but I still think the abortion issue is very straightforward. No one is going to come up with an answer to when a fetus is imbued with a soul any time soon, and most of America by now is informed enough to make a decision.
It's interpretation, which you can only legitimately do if you are informed. Being told what your party believes in church / conservative rallies / liberal rallies etc is not being informed. I would agree with the (inevitable) point that democracy gives me the right to be an ass in the booth and tick random boxes, but when this potentially limits others' liberties, we have a conundrum between democracy and liberty. "When this potentially limits others' liberties?" I have a newsflash for you, this just in: every single piece of legislation ever enacted involves a limitation of others' liberties, that's the nature of law. NOTHING the government does fails to limit someone's liberties. Basically, I think what I'm hearing is that you just don't much care for the democratic principle. Basically, you're saying that democracy is wonderful as long as people vote in ways that you think prudent. As you so grudgingly admitted, democracy involves the "right to be an ass." One man's jackass is another man's genius.
Unfortunately, the US public are one of the least informed, politically dealigned and disinterested. As is their right. Again, you seem to have a problem with democracy when it enfranchises people you don't agree with. What is the point of democracy at all if everyone agrees? In that case, a totalitarian government is PRECISELY as effective and free, because the dictator by definition will only enact legislation with which everyone agrees.
Therefore votes (of any kind, and this extends to polling, so 60% think X must also be questioned) are not always the best course. And partly why they are so seldom used. I know why they're so seldom used: our elites don't want us making our own decisions because very often they disagree with their own goals.
edit: LOL, just read what you've written. That sounds like an argument for facism if I've ever heard one. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just that, I've discussed issues with people advocating facism before (amicably, mind you), and this is precisely their argument.
Oui, but see earlier comments. Democracy in the strictest sense (which, I agree can mean majority rule ) is in fact an unfair system in that it allows the majority (who may be misinformed) to bully the minority (who may feel passionately about an issue.) That's the ugly side of democracy, and it's why the constitution goes to great lengths to (try to) ensure it doesn't happen. I don't really see how the Constitution goes to such great lengths. All the Constitution does is set the boundaries of federal power. EVERYTHING else is left to the States and their citizens, for good or ill. Again, you're saying that you don't really care for democracy. Democracy IS the bullying of the minority by the majority, that's the heart of the concept. It is designed for relatively coherent culturally related populations, which is why I have my doubts about its future in American politics, to the limited degree that it exists today.
Furthermore, you start putting salient issues on the ballots (which are already complex enough) and they'll soon become a ballot 'book' with everything from abortion to offshore drilling to space telescope initiatives. See, offshore drilling is an economic issue with environmental aspects, and isn't really the sort of thing most people WANT on a referendum. Space telescopes are a matter for scientists and the informed (whether or not we should fund increased overall scientific funding is another story). Abortion isn't complicated, it's an issue on which nearly everyone has a clear position. It's really just a matter of moral preference, there's no need for the intelligensia to baby us on such a simple issue.
What I seem to be hearing from you is,"democracy is great as long as the stupid and misinformed are disenfranchised." My response is, how would the resultant system be a democracy?
This comment was edited on Apr 15, 14:03. |
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Author |
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1. |
Apr 9, 10:32 |
LASIK |
VogelAP |
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2. |
Apr 9, 10:41 |
Re: LASIK |
nin |
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5. |
Apr 9, 11:04 |
Re: LASIK |
Sphinx |
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23. |
Apr 9, 14:31 |
Re: LASIK |
Wraithiis |
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44. |
Apr 9, 22:10 |
removed |
langles |
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3. |
Apr 9, 11:00 |
Uh, hello? |
PoopStewart |
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25. |
Apr 9, 15:01 |
Re: Uh, hello? |
ExcessDan |
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4. |
Apr 9, 11:02 |
Vision |
Bronco |
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24. |
Apr 9, 14:40 |
Re: Vision |
Dr.Del |
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6. |
Apr 9, 11:15 |
lasik |
jeremiah |
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7. |
Apr 9, 11:39 |
Re: lasik |
Scottish Martial Arts |
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8. |
Apr 9, 11:39 |
Re: lasik |
ZzeusS |
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10. |
Apr 9, 12:09 |
Re: lasik |
Devster |
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9. |
Apr 9, 11:48 |
The most important thing |
zakk |
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11. |
Apr 9, 12:24 |
My own 2 cents |
Tooon |
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12. |
Apr 9, 12:32 |
LASIK |
N |
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13. |
Apr 9, 12:52 |
Get it! |
Mullen |
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14. |
Apr 9, 12:54 |
Spider-Man 2 |
Bunko |
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15. |
Apr 9, 13:02 |
Damn you LAZTEK! |
Fausticle |
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16. |
Apr 9, 13:20 |
Risk Analysis |
unaloony |
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17. |
Apr 9, 13:32 |
lazik |
j.c.f. |
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18. |
Apr 9, 13:38 |
LASIK |
WebDemon |
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19. |
Apr 9, 13:44 |
I thought about it also... |
Mr. Tact |
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20. |
Apr 9, 13:53 |
Contacts? |
Smoove |
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21. |
Apr 9, 14:15 |
Not for normal use? |
Mr. Tact |
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22. |
Apr 9, 14:28 |
Re: Not for normal use? |
Earthworm |
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32. |
Apr 9, 18:03 |
Re: Not for normal use? |
WaltC |
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33. |
Apr 9, 18:29 |
Re: Not for normal use? |
Bunko |
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40. |
Apr 9, 21:31 |
Re: Not for normal use? |
complicity |
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51. |
Apr 10, 02:06 |
Re: Not for normal use? |
Zathrus |
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26. |
Apr 9, 16:04 |
Lasik |
Creston |
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28. |
Apr 9, 17:03 |
Re: Lasik |
Enahs |
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29. |
Apr 9, 17:34 |
Re: Lasik |
nin |
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41. |
Apr 9, 21:39 |
Re: Lasik |
Ray Marden |
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47. |
Apr 10, 00:02 |
Re: Lasik |
Bronco |
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48. |
Apr 10, 00:29 |
Re: Lasik |
amygdala |
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61. |
Apr 10, 14:40 |
Re: Lasik |
HoSpanky |
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52. |
Apr 10, 02:10 |
Re: Lasik |
Ray Marden |
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53. |
Apr 10, 03:38 |
Re: Lasik |
bkg |
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55. |
Apr 10, 11:04 |
Re: Lasik |
Enahs |
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30. |
Apr 9, 17:34 |
Re: Lasik |
Bunko |
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31. |
Apr 9, 17:53 |
Re: Lasik |
Enahs |
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36. |
Apr 9, 20:23 |
Re: Lasik |
WarPig |
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37. |
Apr 9, 21:10 |
Re: Lasik |
Bronco |
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54. |
Apr 10, 04:53 |
Re: Lasik |
WarPig |
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38. |
Apr 9, 21:13 |
Re: Lasik |
Halsy |
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27. |
Apr 9, 16:06 |
Lasik Plus |
Spampire |
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34. |
Apr 9, 18:37 |
Some different feedback |
trog |
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56. |
Apr 10, 11:30 |
Re: Some different feedback |
Patrick |
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63. |
Apr 10, 15:32 |
Re: Some different feedback |
Dr.Del |
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35. |
Apr 9, 18:54 |
Come on... |
Halsy |
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39. |
Apr 9, 21:24 |
My real issue... |
Ray Marden |
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42. |
Apr 9, 22:01 |
Laser Eye Surgery |
BigSugar |
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43. |
Apr 9, 22:09 |
Bunny Whuppins |
BigSugar |
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45. |
Apr 9, 22:42 |
What amazes me |
Creston |
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46. |
Apr 9, 23:34 |
some thoughts |
halo |
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49. |
Apr 10, 01:33 |
Highly recommend Lasik |
babar |
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50. |
Apr 10, 01:56 |
LASIK |
Squelch Oil |
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57. |
Apr 10, 14:01 |
... |
Bunko |
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58. |
Apr 10, 14:17 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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59. |
Apr 10, 14:21 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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60. |
Apr 10, 14:34 |
Re: ... |
Bunko |
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62. |
Apr 10, 15:00 |
Re: ... |
Enahs |
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64. |
Apr 10, 15:48 |
Re: ... |
Halsy |
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66. |
Apr 10, 16:41 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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67. |
Apr 10, 16:57 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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70. |
Apr 10, 18:11 |
Re: ... |
Bunko |
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72. |
Apr 10, 18:59 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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73. |
Apr 10, 19:07 |
Re: ... |
Dantastic |
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74. |
Apr 10, 19:28 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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75. |
Apr 10, 19:36 |
Re: ... |
Dantastic |
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77. |
Apr 10, 19:41 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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78. |
Apr 10, 20:24 |
Re: ... |
Dantastic |
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79. |
Apr 10, 21:13 |
Re: ... |
JoeCool |
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76. |
Apr 10, 19:40 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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80. |
Apr 10, 21:14 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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81. |
Apr 10, 23:25 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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82. |
Apr 10, 23:46 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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83. |
Apr 11, 00:16 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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84. |
Apr 11, 00:27 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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85. |
Apr 11, 00:42 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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86. |
Apr 11, 00:48 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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87. |
Apr 11, 00:58 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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88. |
Apr 11, 01:07 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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90. |
Apr 11, 01:26 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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92. |
Apr 11, 01:32 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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97. |
Apr 11, 02:00 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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98. |
Apr 11, 02:11 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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101. |
Apr 11, 02:21 |
Re: ... |
Ray Marden |
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103. |
Apr 11, 02:23 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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89. |
Apr 11, 01:21 |
Re: ... |
complicity |
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91. |
Apr 11, 01:31 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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93. |
Apr 11, 01:42 |
Re: ... |
complicity |
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95. |
Apr 11, 01:44 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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96. |
Apr 11, 01:56 |
Re: ... |
complicity |
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99. |
Apr 11, 02:13 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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100. |
Apr 11, 02:19 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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104. |
Apr 11, 02:36 |
Re: ... |
complicity |
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112. |
Apr 11, 15:31 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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113. |
Apr 11, 16:13 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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114. |
Apr 11, 22:41 |
Re: ... |
JoeCool |
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116. |
Apr 12, 01:03 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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117. |
Apr 12, 01:08 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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119. |
Apr 12, 14:54 |
Holy Crap |
Moog Operator |
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120. |
Apr 12, 15:24 |
Re: Holy Crap |
JediLuke |
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121. |
Apr 12, 15:37 |
Re: Holy Crap |
Moog Operator |
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122. |
Apr 12, 15:52 |
Re: Holy Crap |
JediLuke |
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123. |
Apr 12, 15:59 |
Re: Holy Crap |
JoeCool |
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124. |
Apr 12, 16:03 |
Re: Holy Crap |
Moog Operator |
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125. |
Apr 12, 16:16 |
Re: Holy Crap |
JediLuke |
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126. |
Apr 12, 16:21 |
Re: Holy Crap |
JoeCool |
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127. |
Apr 12, 19:50 |
No subject |
Morlock |
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128. |
Apr 12, 20:48 |
Re: No subject |
JediLuke |
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129. |
Apr 12, 23:12 |
Re: No subject |
JediLuke |
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131. |
Apr 13, 10:11 |
Re: No subject |
Moog Operator |
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115. |
Apr 11, 22:42 |
Re: ... |
JoeCool |
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110. |
Apr 11, 02:59 |
Re: ... |
Zathrus |
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65. |
Apr 10, 16:16 |
Re: ... |
HIGH_PING |
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68. |
Apr 10, 17:18 |
Re: ... |
nin |
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69. |
Apr 10, 17:37 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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94. |
Apr 11, 01:44 |
Re: ... |
Ray Marden |
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102. |
Apr 11, 02:23 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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105. |
Apr 11, 02:38 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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106. |
Apr 11, 02:43 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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107. |
Apr 11, 02:52 |
Re: ... |
Morlock |
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111. |
Apr 11, 02:59 |
Re: ... |
complicity |
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108. |
Apr 11, 02:53 |
Re: ... |
complicity |
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109. |
Apr 11, 02:57 |
Re: ... |
JediLuke |
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118. |
Apr 12, 12:36 |
I love trolls, especially bigots |
Moog Operator |
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71. |
Apr 10, 18:52 |
The status of this thread... |
Dantastic |
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130. |
Apr 13, 09:33 |
$0.02 |
Tango |
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132. |
Apr 13, 10:44 |
Re: $0.02 |
bangersnmash |
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133. |
Apr 13, 11:13 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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137. |
Apr 13, 12:20 |
Re: $0.02 |
bangersnmash |
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138. |
Apr 13, 12:48 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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139. |
Apr 13, 12:57 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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140. |
Apr 13, 13:35 |
Re: $0.02 |
Moog Operator |
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141. |
Apr 13, 15:06 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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164. |
Apr 14, 16:59 |
Re: $0.02 |
bangersnmash |
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166. |
Apr 14, 17:26 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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167. |
Apr 14, 17:33 |
Re: $0.02 |
Moog Operator |
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168. |
Apr 14, 18:36 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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169. |
Apr 15, 07:47 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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173. |
Apr 15, 13:41 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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174. |
Apr 15, 13:54 |
Re: $0.02 |
nin |
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175. |
Apr 15, 14:05 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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176. |
Apr 15, 14:57 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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170. |
Apr 15, 12:26 |
Re: $0.02 |
bangersnmash |
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171. |
Apr 15, 13:03 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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172. |
Apr 15, 13:05 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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177. |
Apr 15, 15:32 |
Re: $0.02 |
Moog Operator |
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178. |
Apr 15, 18:20 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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179. |
Apr 15, 20:10 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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180. |
Apr 15, 20:46 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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181. |
Apr 15, 22:35 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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183. |
Apr 16, 08:29 |
Re: $0.02 |
bangersnmash |
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185. |
Apr 16, 13:32 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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188. |
Apr 17, 12:30 |
Re: $0.02 |
bangersnmash |
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189. |
Apr 17, 14:19 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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190. |
Apr 17, 14:33 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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191. |
Apr 17, 20:49 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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182. |
Apr 16, 07:16 |
Re: $0.02 |
Tango |
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186. |
Apr 16, 15:50 |
Re: $0.02 |
Morlock |
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187. |
Apr 16, 20:02 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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184. |
Apr 16, 10:51 |
Re: $0.02 |
Moog Operator |
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134. |
Apr 13, 11:20 |
Re: $0.02 |
Moog Operator |
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135. |
Apr 13, 11:26 |
Re: $0.02 |
nin |
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136. |
Apr 13, 11:29 |
Re: $0.02 |
JediLuke |
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142. |
Apr 13, 15:17 |
Re: $0.02 |
Bronco |
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143. |
Apr 13, 16:21 |
No subject |
Morlock |
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144. |
Apr 13, 16:38 |
Re: No subject |
JediLuke |
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145. |
Apr 13, 17:06 |
Re: No subject |
Tango |
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146. |
Apr 13, 17:39 |
Re: No subject |
Moog Operator |
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147. |
Apr 13, 19:33 |
Re: redefining marriage |
AirWreck |
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148. |
Apr 13, 19:38 |
Re: redefining marriage |
JediLuke |
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149. |
Apr 13, 23:05 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Morlock |
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150. |
Apr 13, 23:38 |
Re: redefining marriage |
JediLuke |
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151. |
Apr 14, 08:01 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Tango |
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152. |
Apr 14, 10:51 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Moog Operator |
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153. |
Apr 14, 10:56 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Moog Operator |
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154. |
Apr 14, 14:10 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Morlock |
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155. |
Apr 14, 14:46 |
Re: redefining marriage |
JediLuke |
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156. |
Apr 14, 15:01 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Moog Operator |
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157. |
Apr 14, 15:15 |
Re: redefining marriage |
JediLuke |
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158. |
Apr 14, 15:28 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Morlock |
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159. |
Apr 14, 15:41 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Moog Operator |
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160. |
Apr 14, 15:42 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Tango |
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161. |
Apr 14, 16:19 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Morlock |
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162. |
Apr 14, 16:35 |
Re: redefining marriage |
JediLuke |
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163. |
Apr 14, 16:45 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Tango |
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165. |
Apr 14, 17:19 |
Re: redefining marriage |
Moog Operator |
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