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Out of the Blue

We got a dusting of snow around here, accompanied, as is often the case, by some warmer weather, which is quite the relief. Unfortunately, the forecast calls for rain followed by sub-zero temperatures in our near future, which is a great combination to create impossible conditions.

Man was that some wild football over the weekend. I am still scratching my head over a couple of the coaching decisions along the way, but it all did add up to fine entertainment, so I won't get too worked up about it... one of the benefits of not having a rooting interest in any of the teams involved.

Play Time: Dante's Inferno Test. Thanks yonderboy. Sixth level for me.
Science!: Prions: When Proteins Attack.
What's Next A Virtual Cash Register Rings Up Tiny Transactions (registration required).
Squid's 'flashlight' intrigues scientists.
Image of the Day: 2 Fast, 2 Furious, 2 Small. Thanks SlayerAODisk.
Media of the Day: Actual Helicopter Kills. Thanks SlayerAODisk. Not for the squeamish.
Follow-up: Space station air leak: U.S. blamed.
Thanks Mike Martinez.

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179 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 1.
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179. Re: Video Jan 16, 2004, 17:48 Moog Operator
 
When faced with sane people and sane observations, not abject stupidity/ignorance, I do pretty good (:

We cannot eat solar panels, nor solar power.
We cannot eat wind power, nor wind turbines.
92% of the world relies on eating oil, via fertilizer, pesticides, transport, and irrigation.
How long until oil is too valuble for farming?
www.oilcrash.com
 
STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU
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178. Re: Video Jan 16, 2004, 15:41 Bronco
 
They are still harmful, but an organized guerilla army of 10,000 people would be killing WAY more soldiers.

I must say that the more you post the more you seem to calm down. Very interesting. I guess you need to post with greater frequency.

-TPFKAS2S
http://www.braglio.org

 
Avatar 10139
 
-TPFKAS2S
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177. Re: Video Jan 16, 2004, 12:45 Moog Operator
 
They are still harmful, but an organized guerilla army of 10,000 people would be killing WAY more soldiers.

We cannot eat solar panels, nor solar power.
We cannot eat wind power, nor wind turbines.
92% of the world relies on eating oil, via fertilizer, pesticides, transport, and irrigation.
How long until oil is too valuble for farming?
www.oilcrash.com
 
STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU
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176. Re: Video Jan 16, 2004, 11:16 Muscular Beaver
 
I dont think he ever said they are completely unorganized...... they are relatively unorganized but thats not much less harmful.

 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
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175. Re: Video Jan 16, 2004, 10:47 Moog Operator
 
You are correct, fighting aa guerilla war doesn't necessarily mean the enemy is unorganized, but from the time that the US army occupied Baghdad, general Franks has repeatedly said the enemy is unorganized. If there were an organized guerilla army fighting the US army, casualties would be substantially higher.

We cannot eat solar panels, nor solar power.
We cannot eat wind power, nor wind turbines.
92% of the world relies on eating oil, via fertilizer, pesticides, transport, and irrigation.
How long until oil is too valuble for farming?
www.oilcrash.com
 
STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU
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174. Re: Video Jan 15, 2004, 18:10 Scottish Martial Arts
 
To act different than they would if they were fighting an organized army is very dangerous.

Who's to say they arn't fighting an organized army? Just because the enemy chooses to fight a guerilla war doesn't mean they are unorganized. Regardless of whether a conflict is classified by the Pentagon as low-, medium- or high-intensity, when a bullet goes whizzing by your head the conflict is immediately high-intensity.

 
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173. Re: Video Jan 15, 2004, 15:24 Moog Operator
 
Hump, you are correct... irregardless of the moral issues of the war in Iraq, those soldiers did their job to the letter. Those soldiers are well trained to deal with a full scale war (which isn't taking place in Iraq), and must treat the situation as such - they do not know any different. To act different than they would if they were fighting an organized army is very dangerous. As has been mentioned, if they were in fact moving weapons, in a full scale war, this is the only logical way to deal with the situation. The tubes could have been anything from sewage or water pipes, fence posts, RPGs, to mortar tubes, and in this situation the only safe assumption was weapons.

We cannot eat solar panels, nor solar power.
We cannot eat wind power, nor wind turbines.
92% of the world relies on eating oil, via fertilizer, pesticides, transport, and irrigation.
How long until oil is too valuble for farming?
www.oilcrash.com
 
STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU
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172. Video Jan 15, 2004, 10:39 Hump
 
""That was no firefight,

that was a couple a guys in millions of dollars of futuristic wartime hardware annihilating three human beings. I mean the first guy was completely removed from the face of the Earth in an instant. If they had a potential "weapon" the guns of the chopper could have easily annihilated that rather than the human beings. That thing tore through the truck like it was paper and turned the first victim into confetti. Come to think of it, the only thing they destroyed was the people and not the weopons. They shot through a truck just to get the guy. Their intent was to kill and not to defend themselves. ""

I'm not going to get into the whole America vs the world argument. Just commenting on the video.

Its a shocking thing to watch, especially the first guy ending up as bits of meat everywhere but keep in mind these guys had their own intentions that wouldve resulted in an equally gruesome picture, we would have never saw it though. You don't have to be a crime scene specialist to know what their intentions were. Even after seeing his partner obliterated the individual sped up his untying of whatever the obeject was in the back of the truck. I'm guessing it wasn't a piece of PVC for the plumbing job they were doing at the local Mosque. Saying they couldve easily destroyed the "the weapon" and not the people is so utterly naive I find it hard to beleive it was even mentioned. There were 3 vehicles, one a large cargo truck that couldve been carrying anything. the pilot had no way of knowing if there werent more thugs in the back of that with some type of weapon(s). The soldiers have been under attack on a nearly daily basis so the pilot assessed the situation and a second person confirmed that he felt what they were indeed seeing was a ground to air missle with tracking capabilities. Given the situation what else were they supposed to do? Again, shoot the weapon?? Thats going to keep these thugs from killing our people in the future?

Lastly, I didn't hear it first hand but I understand a reporter from I beleive was "The Guardian" (an ultra left-wing daily out of the UK) asked at a news conference why these thugs had to be shot with such a high caliber gun and why not something smaller, as if somehow that would be more humane? If anybody has a link to a copy of this let me know. I have to hear it with my own ears.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Perhaps the answer to the perennial problem of delinquent teenagers dropping bricks from motorway and railway bridges is to sue the creators of Tetris."- unknown author
 
Avatar 10137
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Both the “left” and the “right” pretend they have the answer, but they are mere flippers on the same thalidomide baby, and the truth is that neither side has a clue."

- Jim Goad
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171. Re: helicopter video Jan 14, 2004, 23:35 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Thanks to the US, the tiny country of Laos has the distinction of being the most heavily bombed country in the history of warfare. Of course at the time, the US made no mention of that fact whatsoever - they certainly never declared war on Laos - yet the operation cost taxpayers nearly $2 million per day.

We never declared war on North Vietnam either. The Pathet Lao fought alongside the PAVN as well as helped them establish the Ho Chi Minh Trail through Laos and Cambodia. I did some quick research, the secret wars fought in Laos killed a half million people. Over the course of the American involvement in the war North Vietnam lost at least 1.5 million.

While Laos has the distinction of being the most heavily bombed country in the history of warfare you left out several important facts. A) The Pathet Lao insurgents fought alongside the PAVN and were thus just as much a target as the PAVN or VC, and B) Bombing was primarily confined to the Ho Chi Minh Trail, a military target. While that does not excuse the waging of a secret war, the bombing of Laos was not the wanton killing and rape of civilians that you seem to want to portray it as.

Additionally, while the 1.5 million NV dead is the low estimate I believe that the .5 million Laos dead is the high estimate. When the only websites that have Laotian casualty counts are called "American Genocide of the Laotian People" I tend to think that bias may start to influence what is written.

 
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170. Re: helicopter video Jan 14, 2004, 11:33 Muscular Beaver
 
LOL let me guess... youre european...

 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
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169. Re: helicopter video Jan 14, 2004, 11:05 Moog Operator
 
MEatFart: Trust me, these people do not want to be educated about the American Holocaust...
MUSCULAR BEAVER: In our lifetimes, world oil production will peak - if it hasn't already. When this happens, the completely gluttonous way of American life, American WAR, and American Cheese will come to a screaming halt (for the poor first; then the food will run out and money will mean nothing) along with the lives of about 6 billion people. Contesting America's waste of TRILLIONS of joules of (oil) energy via war, when this waste will soon cause the most massive die off humans will ever see, is the only sane action or opinion to have.

 
STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU
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168. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 20:28 MeatForce
 
Your numbers are way off as far as 2 million killed in covert bombing operations. 10 million is also too high. IMO, I would be suprised if 10,000 civilians died during the Vietnam conflict due to covert aerial bombing out of Vietnam.

Also, because we pulled out of Vietnam you forget to mention the millions dead in Cambodia.

The "secret war" that America waged in South-East Asia both during and after the Vietnam War has been very well documented by now, and is probably one of the most astonishing examples of psychotic behaviour on the part of a government in recent history.

Since you clearly know nothing about it (and you're certainly not alone in that), here are some details you may find interesting:

Thanks to the US, the tiny country of Laos has the distinction of being the most heavily bombed country in the history of warfare. Of course at the time, the US made no mention of that fact whatsoever - they certainly never declared war on Laos - yet the operation cost taxpayers nearly $2 million per day.

Instead, between 1965 and 1973, they quietly dropped over 1,000,000 bombs on what was probably the poorest country in the world at the time. That's equal to one plane-load of ordinance every eight minutes for nine years; one tonne of explosives for every human being living in Laos at the time; more ordinance dropped than was used on Germany and Japan combined during the whole of WWII, and one and a half times the number of air sorties allocated to all of Vietnam - all in a place smaller than the state of Indiana.

Anthony Lewis has called this "the most appalling episode of lawless cruelty in American history." I would tend to agree, except that after they were done with Laos, the US went on to supply Pol Pot in the '70s and '80s, thereby helping him wipe out over 1.7 million Khmers (speaking of Cambodia).

I could easily go on (they fucked over Central America pretty hard for a decade or two after that, for example), but I suspect that I've long-since lost the attention of the mouth-breathers among us who just don't care to know any of this stuff.

This comment was edited on Jan 13, 20:32.
 
-----
I'm not even angry. I'm being so sincere right now, even though you broke my heart and killed me.
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167. Assalicious Jan 13, 2004, 16:34 SH33P
 
""That was no firefight,

that was a couple a guys in millions of dollars of futuristic wartime hardware annihilating three human beings. I mean the first guy was completely removed from the face of the Earth in an instant. If they had a potential "weapon" the guns of the chopper could have easily annihilated that rather than the human beings. That thing tore through the truck like it was paper and turned the first victim into confetti. Come to think of it, the only thing they destroyed was the people and not the weopons. They shot through a truck just to get the guy. Their intent was to kill and not to defend themselves. ""

I'm going to unwisely assume that video came from the gun camera of a US helicopter and that those soldiers(?) on the ground were hostile. But, those soldiers(?) on the ground in that video might have killed one, or more than one US soldier. It could have been me or my friends. Let's not pretend that those guys got lost out there and had no direct involvement in killing US troops. Kill or be killed on the battefield would be my way of thinking if I were there. Yes, that video does point out the enormous difference in technology, tactics, and maybe doctrine. But would you pick a fight with the biggest kid on the block and not expect to get your ass kicked?
I always considered myself almost unfairly cold toward anyone who might have deserved it. I've never killed anyone and don't plan on it. But we're all adults here and whether or not you would have done things differently out there, you're where you are today because of those men that DID make the call.

 
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166. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 16:16 JM
 
If you're asking me, yes. And it seems to support the notion that the soldiers' actions were 100% justified.

 
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165. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 16:14 ExcessDan
 
so have you read the follow-up on today's ootb?

------------
Love,
Mayor Dan
 
ExcessDan
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164. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 13:56 JM
 
So you're saying the US should break the international rules of war and start blasting medics and medical vehicles? Nice, spoken like a true Taliban of America member.

<sarcasm>Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.</sarcasm> What an idiot. If you don't get the point, you never will so please, don't hurt yourself trying.

 
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163. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 13:43 Cochese
 
"And how do you know he was no longer a threat? Soldiers get hurt in battle all the time, get patched up, and are back to fight another day. So, again, how is a wounded enemy not still a threat?"

So you're saying the US should break the international rules of war and start blasting medics and medical vehicles? Nice, spoken like a true Taliban of America member.

 
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162. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 13:32 Muscular Beaver
 
Your numbers are way off as far as 2 million killed in covert bombing operations. 10 million is also too high. IMO, I would be suprised if 10,000 civilians died during the Vietnam conflict due to covert aerial bombing out of Vietnam.

Also, because we pulled out of Vietnam you forget to mention the millions dead in Cambodia.

the people who only point at the USA (and even get out numbers, how pathetic) are simply... simple minded. they have their opinion and aggression against the USA and nothing can break it.
so save your breath for talking to your dog or cat or whatever.

This comment was edited on Jan 13, 13:32.
 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
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161. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 13:28 Muscular Beaver
 
nice post Fang. interesting how Halsy didnt even understand what he posted himself.

 
Avatar 12928
 
Oh that is so lame... You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue!
- Mojo Jojo
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160. Re: helicopter video Jan 13, 2004, 13:15 John Nelson
 
Seems pointless arguing with someone who thinks it's wrong to kill someone in a combat situation. Perhaps instead of holding them up here with an argument, we should shut up and let them head over to Iraq where they can persuade the guerilla terrorists there to stop their violence. I'm sure even Osama could be talked round with their pretty pacifist words.

 
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179 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 1.
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