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On C-Z and DNF Release Dates

GameStop is now the second e-tailer to push the release date of Counter-Strike: Condition Zero back to March 2004. Valve has not given any indications that the game is delayed to that point, but their expected November 18 release date (story) for the supposedly gold shooter has come and gone without comment, reminiscent of the tight-lipped handling of the Half-Life 2 delay (thanks HomeLAN Fed). Also on HomeLAN Fed is a report based on this morning's conference call with Take Two Interactive saying the publisher is passing along indications they have received from 3D Realms that Duke Nukem Forever is heading for a release in "late 2004 or early 2005." Of course the game's release is entirely in the hands of 3D Realms, and it's doubtful that their official release date for the game has changed from their hard-line mantra of "when it's done."

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113. Re: No subject Dec 25, 2003, 15:47 DrEvil
 
"..and there are still a LOT of vestiges of the Quake engine plainly visible WITHOUT seeing any source code. "

Like what?

 
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112. Re: No subject Dec 24, 2003, 12:24 ildon
 
If you take an old car, let's say a Datsun 240z, and you replace the engine, the seats, the suspension and the tires with newer versions. At what point is it a new car? Would you tell people you built that car from scratch? If they couldn't see the parts that were still in it, but that were vitally important to it running, like the frame, would they believe you?

First of all, if you've ever played any computer game ever, you know that 99% of marketing says about it before it comes out is extremely over exaggerated hype. No I don't believe verbatim everything Gamespy and IGN say. And no I don't believe everything Valve or Id says, verbatim.

The fact is I've played the leak, and I know a lot about how computer games work, especially Quake, and there are still a LOT of vestiges of the Quake engine plainly visible WITHOUT seeing any source code. That doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is Valve lying saying it's "from scratch" and that it's "the Source Engine" without giving any credit to the fact that without the Quake engine it'd just be a bunch of code snippets of plugin features to any generic modern game.

As for the r_speeds thing, there is a self-imposed limit as evidenced by the fact that on the r_speeds screen it shows "x/y" where y is a static number which I can't remember off hand, but it was extremely low, something like 2000. Also, while walking around with r_speeds on any time x went over y, the frame rate dropped dramatically. Now I understand a few things, being that this could be raw wpoly and not include shader passes, which could increase the actual count by as much as 4. I also realize that because it was a leak, it could easily be improved upon or changed completely before release, especially after it was delayed for 6 months. None of these things really bother more, nor do I care about them. What really bothers me is the way Valve conducts themselves. The way they strategically keep quiet on certain subjects, and they never give a straight answer to any question that might expose a limit of their game. They are marketers first, and game designers second. 95% of game companies are like that, but what bothers me is that the HL/CS fanboys REFUSE to accept that marketing for any game is mostly lies and exaggeration. Valve tells them HL2 is the second coming of Jesus and they believe in it absolutely.

 
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111. Re: No subject Dec 24, 2003, 01:40 Camaro76
 
Ok then...

Did you even READ the link I provided? You do know how FOLLOW HYPERLINKS, don't you? Perhaps I should have posted this snip instead:

What is the production polygon count per scene for Half-Life 2 maps?

Rather than a polygon count, we aim at a specific performance level on high-, medium-, and low-end machines. The map designer has tools (similar to Half-Life's r_speeds output, but greatly expanded) that will help pinpoint areas that need to be optimized.

The only problem with that snip is they don't give any hard polygon limits for their maps. That makes it a little hard to come up with a 'good base of comparison', don't you think? However, I can make an educated guess from reading the fucking FAQ (which contains the snip I posted) that your original point about 'limits of the Half-Life' engine is totally irrelevant.

You wrote:

m00t, that's my whole point, it DIDN'T keep the robust features of HL1 it kept the LIMITS of HL1. You just wait, when the game comes out, you try to make levels with 10,000 visible world polygons (something Quake3 (1999) can do quite easily). Without using the models or terrain mesh.

This is Quake 3, okay? AN OLD, DEATHMATCH CENTRIC GAME THAT TAKES PLACE MOSTLY IN TIGHT MAPS WITH CONFINED AREAS.

http://www.gamershell.com/hellzone_FPS_Quake_3.shtml

This is Half-Life 2, okay? A NEW, SOLO-PLAY CENTRIC GAME THAT TAKES PLACE MOSTLY IN LARGE MAPS AND OPEN AREAS.

http://www.planethalflife.com/half-life2/screenshots/

if ($apple != $orange) {
print "ildon is a jackass.";
}

You wrote:

It seems you're the one that's the fanboy here. I already mentioned shaders and all that other stuff is merely built on top of their existing code base. They never "rewrote the engine from scratch". That's the lie that they're perpetuating. They just piled more features onto the SAME ENGINE.

Oh, so you did a case-by-case comparison of the source code from both games, did you? I didn't know you worked for Valve, since the source code for HL1 is not available even though the source for HL2 is. Ohh... that's right, you're just another forum troll pulling shit out of his ass as usual.

One more link you probably won't read:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/400/400985p1.html?fromint=1

Here's a nice, juicy quote:

It all started with the engine. Right after the original Half-Life shipped, a group of guys from the development team went off in to a secret area and began working on the new technology. The new engine, called Source, was built entirely from scratch specifically for Half-Life 2. But though it was built from scratch, it took its direction from the limitations of the first game's engine. "There was a bunch of stuff at the end of Half Life 1 that got cut, right? Things that people wanted to do. That's always the natural starting point. We had all these great ideas and things we had in mind that we weren't able to do with the last tech."

Bonus! It talks about limits too! Oh, I forgot - IGN is just made up of a bunch of liars, right? Well then, how about Gamespy:

http://www.gamespy.com/previews/may03/halflife2pc/

The story of Half-Life 2 starts with its technology. While the original Half-Life was created with Quake technology licensed from id Software, Valve spent most of the last few years developing their own brand-new engine, dubbed "Source." In fact, most of what we got to see while at Valve were proof-of-concept tech demos finished around September 2002 to show off the capabilities of the Source engine; only later did the team start constructing levels for the actual game.

Hell, even if they did re-use parts of the old engine, is that such a capital crime? PROGRAMMERS ARE LAZY. It's much quicker and easier to take something you already wrote and adapt it to a task than starting over from scratch (as many others have pointed out).

However, any *rational* person would tend to think that Valve is using a new engine for Half-Life 2 that surpasses the limits of the Half-Life 1. Is that an intelligent enough reply for you? Pardon the belligerance, but I'm tired of the ignorance. Jackass.

I'm anticipating the reply to be that I am a quote unquote "Valve fanboy" and I will be told to quote unquote "fuck off".

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110. No subject Dec 23, 2003, 20:58 ildon
 
Jesus Christ not a single person made an intelligent reply to my post.

The beach level is terrain using displacement mesh. I made a very clear distinction.

Those are polygon budgets for MODELS. Do you know what a MODEL is?

*sigh*

 
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109. Re: Can't even talk about it! Dec 21, 2003, 16:26 nin
 
Thanks for the link, Camaro76!

From that thread...

You seriously think they're a laughing stock? Maybe among 10 year-old CS jockeys and the die-hards on the Shacknews boards, but the majority are still stoked for -- or at least interested in -- DNF. Particularly developers.


AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

http://www.kraftwerk.com/
 
http://store.nin.com/index.php?cPath=10
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108. Re: Can't even talk about it! Dec 21, 2003, 15:52 Camaro76
 
Linkage? I'm always in the mood for a good train wreck...

I'm guessing it's in this thread...

http://tinyurl.com/37rwr

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107. Re: At a loss. Dec 21, 2003, 13:50  famished 
 
Number 20 says "...but at least 3DRealms stuck a firm "when it's done" years ago, and assured us the media blackout was purposeful."

No. Hence...

"We're confident that DNF will be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, game of 1998. And this confidence is not misplaced." - Scott Miller, 1997

"Duke Nukem Forever is a 1999 game and we think that timeframe matches very well with what we have planned for the game." - George Broussard, 1998

"Trust us, Duke Nukem Forever will rock when it comes out next year." - Joe Siegler, 1999

"When it's done in 2001." - 2000 Christmas card

"DNF will come out before Unreal 2." - George Broussard, 2001

"If DNF is not out in 2001, something's very wrong." - George Broussard, 2001

"DNF will come out before Doom 3." - George Broussard, 2002

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1507

 
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106. Re: Can't even talk about it! Dec 20, 2003, 22:59 nin
 
Lots of hatred from both the fans and developers.

Linkage? I'm always in the mood for a good train wreck...

http://www.kraftwerk.com/
 
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105. Re: Can't even talk about it! Dec 20, 2003, 18:48 Ray Marden
 
Wow, I just took a look at the forums.

Lots of hatred from both the fans and developers.



Wondering if I am the only one noticing a lot of people leaving SWG,
Ray

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Everything is awesome!!!
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104. Can't even talk about it! Dec 20, 2003, 08:14 Drazula
 
Meh! 3DR forums won't even allow any discussion of the article. WTF?

Between attacking their own developers and having accounting "problems", is Take Two unravelling?

 
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103. Re: Dec 20, 2003, 06:07 Rseman
 
"Sources unnamed sent me this updated picture of Duke:

http://camaro76.web.aplus.net/duke_senior.jpg"

Actually… that photo is from a recent geriatric association survey
which was conducted to visually represent the average age they
expect DNF fans will be when the game is finally released….

Those wanting a visual representation of the physical state in which
those developing the title are expected to be in at time of the release
will need to choose one of the following options;

1: Find a grave at your local cemetery with a date showing the deceased’s
demise at something no younger that 60 years earlier and dig it up, then
open it up and meet whatever is smiling back. This should be an accurate
representation.

2: Purchase a Ouija Board and gather with your other Old Skool gaming
friends to contact the nether world. Although rarely accomplished, you
may be able to convince George and Co. to materialize for visual representation
if you promise to not criticize unmercifully Duke the 3rd which could possibly still
be in development by their great grandchildren.

CAUTION: Option 1: could be illegal depending on your state’s laws regarding
actions generally seen to be in poor taste


 
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102. LEAKED PHOTO OF DUKE Dec 20, 2003, 00:31 Camaro76
 
Sources unnamed sent me this updated picture of Duke:

http://camaro76.web.aplus.net/duke_senior.jpg

ALWAYS BET ON DUKE!!!

YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF THIS GAME!!!


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101. I needed to vent Dec 19, 2003, 18:41 BladeTurbo
 
what really gets me is that Joe(the moderator)over at the 3DR forums keeps deleting the posts if anyone even speaks the word release date. I always thought forums were open to the public to talk about anything. its sad that George is afraid to come out of his hole and say 1 word regarding DNF. and what's this BULL**** about how they can't release a screenshot because it would spoil the game. I mean come on, have you ever not bought a game because of screenshots.

“It's always funny until someone gets hurt... and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!” Running With Scissors
 
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100. Re: Dec 19, 2003, 18:36 Waldo555
 
Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks Ildon is trying to use black and white demarcations about what constitutes a 'new engine' which don't stand up if they're actually employed consistently, given they would mean a vast revision of what most gamers commonly regardly as 'new' outside the rolling Unreal tech (which is a special case).

btw - you never mentioned LOD scaling, netcode, facial animation, nor HDR & specular lighting - which are all NEW engine tech. Furthermore, even if you say that DOT3 bump-mapping and higher polys are common it doesn't change the fact that the engine has vastly different capabilities IN TOTALITY. Also, I only mentioned the 200 PS2.0 shaders to re-emphasise that it fairly cutting edge compared to the rest of the TWIMTBP handi-capped shader use we see in game now and on the horizon...

Anyway, whatever. If you have an axe to grind because some 12year-old HL2 fanboy stepped on your toes in a former life, so be it. Engine design is about compromises to produce a particular experience on a particular range of hardware. I happen to think Source makes compromises in the right areas, and emphasises things I can be excited about - you're free to disagree. But all this drama queen carring on about lying and other companies laughing at them, Bloodlines being a a nothing title, it is frankly very puerile.
This comment was edited on Dec 19, 18:39.
 
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99. Google is your friend. Dec 19, 2003, 18:36 Camaro76
 
Hell maybe during the next few months this all could change and I'll look like a jackass for basing things on the E3 video and the leak.

How about if you look like a jackass right now?

---

http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?faq=source_mod_faq

What is the polygon budget for models?

We target between 3000 polygons (i.e.: headcrabs) and 7500 polygons (i.e. Alyx, the Gman) for characters and monsters, depending on function and how many we hope to have on-screen simultaneously, and we have several stages of LOD (level of detail) models with drastically reduced polygon counts for when things get smaller in screen space (further away). We're targeting around 2000 polygons for our viewmodels, which of course do not LOD.

You might want to read that link before you post some more.

Edit: moved link closer to paragraph on models.
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98. Re: Dec 19, 2003, 16:37 Beelzebud
 
What makes you think you are correct about the engine? I haven't seen any real technical specs on it, other than it supports PS2.0. How do you know what the poly count is? You don't.

How do you know it "kept the LIMITS of HL1". That is a statement you can't back up. Show me some proof it kept the limits of HL1. You can't. Because all that is out there is a leaked alpha copy with E3 demo levels in it.

FYI. From the E3 levels I checked out, it easily beat Quake 3 in poly-count... If you don't beleieve me just check out the "Beach" maps... And that is an unfinished leaked alpha..

And if you want to get technical then the new Doom 3 engine isn't completely new either. And neither was the Quake 3 engine. As was mentioned. Engines are rarely written "from scratch" these days.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 16:39.
 
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97. Re: Dec 19, 2003, 14:39 ildon
 
m00t, that's my whole point, it DIDN'T keep the robust features of HL1 it kept the LIMITS of HL1. You just wait, when the game comes out, you try to make levels with 10,000 visible world polygons (something Quake3 (1999) can do quite easily). Without using the models or terrain mesh.

I'm not trying to be an Id fanboy here, it's just a good base for comparison. Engine features DO NOT make a game.

Hell maybe during the next few months this all could change and I'll look like a jackass for basing things on the E3 video and the leak. They could totally replace the Quake code and up the power of the bsp renderer or whatever. But as it stands now from what we know: #1 Valve lies #2 "Source" is just a fancy Q1 engine mod.

 
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96. DNF is right on-track Dec 19, 2003, 12:01 theAntiELVIS
 
...they never planned to release it until humanity has evolved to the next higher level, and we can control the game with our minds.

Just a few million more years to go....

-tAE-

 
Avatar 473
 
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95. Re: Dec 19, 2003, 11:46 m00t
 
ildon, I think we all would be happy to see you add all of those features to Quake1 or Quake2, since it's so easy.

True, it's not entirely written from scratch. VERY few engines are. In fact, if you want to get technical about it, just about nothing is written from scratch any more.

However, in an evolutionary sense, it is a new engine. It has kept the robust features of the previous incarnation. Why throw away something that works fine? Just because you used it last time doesn't mean you can't use it again. It doesn't mean it's not a useful element.

Just because a lot of engines use BSPs for their maps doesn't mean they're all built with the Quake engine.

Anyway, an engine is more than just what features it has. It's what you do with them.

 
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94. Re: Dec 19, 2003, 11:09 Beelzebud
 
Get a shrink...

 
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