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On H&D2 Expansion

Computer And Video Games (thanks Frans) has word straight from Illusion Softworks on the status of cooperative multiplayer support in the World War II sequel, confirming that co-op is in the works, quoting level designer Martin Babarik as saying: "There will be a co-op mode in the mission pack, but just for the missions that are to be included in the mission pack. There'll be no co-op play for the original game. It would be very difficult to re-make the current missions from Hidden & Dangerous 2 to use the co-op mode because it would mean making extensive changes to the code."

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15. we could do a coop mod, it would be eas Dec 17, 2003, 11:08 bwa
 
Guys, would anybody be interested in making a coop mod for this game? It would be very easy. Like I said before, coop play is basically already in the game, all we would need to do, is make it so that another computer(s) can control the other allied player(s) in the single player game. I think this is similar to how MTA (mutli theft auto) works for grand theft auto. It accesses gta's memory, and then through completely different and stand alone code, it networks other mta clients, and send the data to itself on other computers, and then updates their single player games. Is anybody following me? All we need to do for hidden dangerous 2 coop, is to find out where the memory values for various thigns are stored, such as where the players are on the map, what gun they're using, when they shoot, when the crouch/lie down, and so on (these values are what game trainers access to cheat the game), and then send that to another computer via network code, and then replace the 2nd computers hidden dangerous 2 memory with those values, and it should theoritically work. If anybodys interested, let me know, in fact the MTA code might work just fine for this. K, let me know, big_wierd_al@hotmail.com

-bwa

 
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14. No subject Dec 17, 2003, 09:45 Monty
 
As long as coop is not mission based and IS campaign based I will buy it. I just won't buy if it's just a sprinkling of coop missions.

 
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13. Re: here's my 3 cents Dec 17, 2003, 00:27 bwa
 
Sorry, to change my post, the coop mode is concerned about WHERE the player is, but in a different way then that of the AI is. The networking puts the player on the map and updates its location and sends that info, as well as other info to the server, and then to all the other computers. The AI is concerned about where the player is also, but in terms of how to kill it at that location, and not updating the rest of the computers on the server as to where the players is located on the map. Thats better

-bwa

 
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12. Re: here's my 3 cents Dec 17, 2003, 00:19 bwa
 
I understand that improving the AI would help this game, and probably every game out there today, however, especially for this game, there are already 4 players, and even in single player mode, 3 of them at all times are being controlled by the computer. If Illusion spent more time and money on developing better AI for the game, it would improve the game a lot, and make it more realistic. However, I don't see how better, or worse changes to the AI would affect coop. AI is like graphics, sound, network speed (packet loss), and variation in the weapons and number of vehicles. If you improve any one of them, the game will get better for the player. But a particular part of the game doesn't depend on one of those features being good or bad. It will affect it indirectly, because maybe the graphics suck, or the sound has bugs, or the network speed is very slow, meanign lots of lag, but that will not affect how the game plays out. A function or mode of the game (multiplayer, or single player) does not require one of those features of the game (graphics, sound, etc.) to be good or bad, it simply requires that it be there. The coop part of this game is not concerned about WHERE the players are on the map, its concerned about HOW they got there, and that is done through network programming and syncing with the other computers involved with the game. The AI of the game is concerned about where the player is on the map, and what gun he or she is using to try and kill the enemy. To move the players around in the game, the AI has nothing to do with that, it simply analyses those moves (being made, or already made), and makes changes and strategies, via scripts or whatever, as to its next move. The coop or networking part looks at how the player got there (through networking input and output), and doesn't care about what the enemy is going to do next to try and stop the player, it simply moves the enemy around the map and updates all computers playing the game, to show the changes. The scripting for coop would be the same for single player, as there are no less or more players in multiplayer coop for the computer and enemy AI to deal with, the players are simply controlled by not just one computer anymore, but by two or three or four. The enemy scripting would probably be turned off completely if the computer enemy AI played no role in the game, and there were only human players in the game, ie. not coop mode. In essence, in H&D2, coop play is already built into the single player game, with the 4 allied soldiers (and not just 1). The 4 soldiers are just not able to be controlled by a second or third or fourth human player respecitively yet, and so the coop play is limited to the single player mode. Thats my take on it!

-bwa

 
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11. Thanks for that 'explanation martin' Dec 16, 2003, 21:25 mycoman
 
"It would be very difficult to re-make the current missions from Hidden & Dangerous 2 to use the co-op mode because it would mean making extensive changes to the code."

Ahh..thank you Martin. Let me say that it was very difficult for me to go to work 300 days a year and earn the money that I need to pay you for your hard work. Everyone works hard you wanker...I'll buy your coop expansion pack, but it would be too difficult to go back and spend my money on a game without it. Usenet fills that niche nicely.

 
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10. Re: here's my 3 cents Dec 16, 2003, 18:10 The dude
 
-bwa-,

Actually, coop with interaction of AI entails a whole different set of scripting and variables. Particularly how avatars react to multiple agents in game. Especially...

Here's an example:
Although Quake 2 is designed for Coop, if you notice the shortcoming in it's coop programming can be observed when the non-players always focus and shoot at the guy who shot first and it can become a turkey shoot for the guy standing on the side lines... That's not fun at all


Serious Sam was a lot better but it could still end up being that way sometimes. But the offset, was just the sheer volume of monsters would compensate for the idea of thinking you could just camp out and do a turkey shoot.

Now when I use the term 'turkey shoot', I mean domesticated turkeys. Because, they're so stupid they'll just sit there watching their comrades getting blown to bits and not do much panicing sometimes trying to eat their fallen fella. "Now that's pathetic!".

... In the sense of a game hosted for 4 player, but only 3 players, partake in the exploits and the companion player needing control by a human from time to time. It's not as easy as it seems but, it defintely isn't impossible like the guys at Illusion try to make come off.

It's just too bad, when companies are in their infancy cooperative modes are a non-issue and implemented by default. Then as companies arrive at a more realized stage all of a sudden everything gets marginalized and cost, of course cost meaning: how much can we recieve for adding the same the ole shit we did for nothing, becomes the key reason...

"I don't buy it!" Illusion is being incredulous and lazy.






-The Dude-

Vic B.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 22:50.
 
-The Dude-

Vic B.
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9. Re: here's my 3 cents Dec 16, 2003, 16:59 bwa
 
-The Dude-, you could be right with your point that money controls a very large part of game content today, as well as time. However, H&D2 offers quite a bit of LAN and ONLINE play already, out of the original box, which the first H&D1 didn't (as I remember, only LAN, and only coop). So the developers have obviously put effort into making the game multiplayable, they just haven't included a certain mode for it. How much more effort would coop have taken them to do on top of the existing multiplayer code that it shipped with? I mean its only a "mode" for multiplayer, right? Its not as though they have to redesign a large part of the engine/game to make this possible. In fact, coop is the single player mode, but with 1 or more human inputs (controlling the 4 soldiers) at one time. From my understanding of it, coop is damn simple for this game, and they already have a good multiplayer setup in the game, so why leave out coop? Maybe its only because they want us to buy the expansion pack, so they've left it out of the original box, so we will have more invcentive to buy the ex. pack. Bastards! Well, at least coop is in the expansion pack for sure, and its something to look forward to, and should be a lot of fun. Hopefully some of the AI problems will also be fixed, but they never seem to be in game patches, so forget that

-bwa

 
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8. Re: Lame No-coop of H&D2 Dec 16, 2003, 16:39 7.62WorldOrder
 
I agree, this is lame. I bought H&D 2 because I wanted to play it, but also because they had promised coop play in an "upcoming patch". Now we come to find that this "patch" is actually an expansion that the user has to pay for. Nice. On top of that, coop doesn't apply to the original game, which isn't very fun in SP because it's so fucking hard it's unbelieveable.

Contrary to the developer's belief, I do not enjoy playing the same damn part of the game 17 times in a row. But it would be a hell of a lot easier if my teammates were human, because your AI teammates are as dumb as a box of rocks and are liable to get you killed more than anything else. They can fire off over a hundred rounds and make a lot of noise and not kill more than a single enemy.

 
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7. here's my 3 cents Dec 16, 2003, 16:37 The dude
 
I'll put it in very simple terms...

Money causes most companies to see their orignal ambitions in a much different light. H&D 1 was designed on an open ended time frame by guys in a far more economically challeneged corner of the world having fun. In poland, the guys had nothing better to do than to hone their skills. But, now that they have contracts and media attention they develop their products from a much different persepective. It's called "the-more-money-the-more-you-get" syndrome. Illusion Softworks doesn't own their product anymore, they just work there.

Welcome to effects of capitolization...

Take form me, I was a "GI-NORMACE" fan of H&D. I ended up finding a secondary but shitter solution, I started playing this game called "Deadly Dozen" (both the WWII European and Pacicific theater versions) a H&D ripoff that played just as good.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 16:57.
 
-The Dude-

Vic B.
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6. Lame No-coop of H&D2 Dec 16, 2003, 16:12 JAGUART
 
Countless posts have been made on this topic. I never bought H&D2 because I was waiting for a rumored co-op patch, as were 3 of my friends. We wanted to approach the story fresh and together. Now we're screwed and we're not buying it. I wrote the developers a lengthy e-mail on how much my friends and I loved the co-op of the Original H&D, and they sent me a free copy of Devil's Bridge to encourage my friends to purchase it, but it was too buggy and unoptimized for the systems back then to recommend it. How they could overlook the very thing that people loved about the original is ridiculous.

Public opinion version .12b Alpha
 
"I like to play female characters in MMORPGs to trick men into homosexual chat." - space captain, June 18th, 2009.
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5. Re: Well it's a start... Dec 16, 2003, 13:39 ReDeeMeR
 
Nah it's a nice game as it is, much better then CoD, more interactive and deeper, doesnt feels like a "scripted show"

But the gfx could've been better, the game was way to long in development.

 
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4. Re: Well it's a start... Dec 16, 2003, 12:29 Ludomancer
 
Screw you developers. You really dropped the ball with this one, removing the #1 feature of your franchise that made it good, fun, and different from other WW2 FPS titles.

That's just weak.

As for the rest of the game, what's the point?

 
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3. Re: Well it's a start... Dec 16, 2003, 12:04 bwa
 
This is good news, and bad news at the same time.I don't understand why they won't include co-op in the original mission for H&D 2? I'm not a game programmer or level designer and therefore don't know too much about this stuff, but if they are putting co-op into the game engine or the game itself, and the original levels use that game/engine, would it not make sense that co-op could work for the original levels without too much trouble. It only means setting up input for a second (or more) player into the game does it not? If they had it in the first H&D game, then why the fuck would they take it out for the second (it baffles me!!), it was perfect in the first, and it seemed fairly simply, its not like the levels need to be redesigned is it? They've already got networking built into the game, whats so hard about putting co-op into the original levels now? Somebody who has played the internet part of this game, is it good? Or would LAN based co-op be better then the online play in the game? There was talk about a level editor being included in this game was there not? I could be wrong about that, but I woul love to see a level editor for this game, it would be great! Maybe somebody can help explain what is so hard about putting co-op into the game, and why they can't make the original levels coopable. Any word on other details in the expansion # of levels, new weapons, vehicles, where the missions will be, so on.....?

-bwa

 
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2. Re: Well it's a start... Dec 16, 2003, 11:13 Furious
 
I really miss co-op for main story lines , i.e. Doom 1/2, Quake 2, Diablo 1/2, Bioware games etc. It'd be a nice trend to re-emerge.

 
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1. Well it's a start... Dec 16, 2003, 11:02 Blade_986
 
RIGHT ON!! As soon as that is out I will buy this game! All I really play online is coop games and I was REALLY looking forward to this one!

 
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