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Deus Ex: Invisible War Demo

Considerably earlier than expected, the public version of the Deus Ex: Invisible War demo is now available for download. Here's word: "Only one event has been more anticipated than the December 3rd release of Deus Ex: Invisible War, and that is the release of the pre-release playable demo for Deus Ex: Invisible War. The demo gives an incredible glimpse into the unique player choice gameplay. Alex D needs transport in a jet held by Sophia Sak, mercenary. There are many ways to resolve the challenges in getting your ride, it's up to you how to choose to make it happen. You've got a few biomods and a few weapons at your disposal, but are they necessary. Will you use wits or brawn? And do you have enough of either to make it happen?" The 224 MB demo can be found on the Eidos Interactive Website, and mirrored on 3D Downloads, 3D Gamers, Boomtown (registration required), Computer Games Online, DeusEx2Files, FileFront, Filerush, FileShack (registration required), Gamer's Hell, Games Fusion, GameSpot DLX (registration required), GameTab, IGN, Loadedinc (registration required), NWSGaming, Pixelrage.ro, and Worthplaying.

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352 Replies. 18 pages. Viewing page 4.
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292. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 21:48 RegularX
 
You're acting like the finite supply of ammo exists in all of your guns simultaneously.

YES! Yes! Yes, you dense, dense little boy, that's exactly what I'm saying because that's exactly how the game plays because THAT IS WHAT UNIFIED AMMO MEANS. U N I F I E D.

Even if the concept were possible, you'd still have to put the ammo into the gun!

Of course the concept isn't possible you moron, it's a damn game construct. It's a completely unrealistic concept. The whole thing is unrealistic. What, you want to wait every time you swap guns to put one big clip into the next gun? That would be an improvement? Go play the demo again and realize that EACH WEAPON DOES NOT HAVE SEPERATE AMMO and that every "solution" you come up with assumes it does.

which presumably is assembled by a mini Universal Constructor into different forms for different guns

Presumably you just pulled all of that out of your ASS.

Tell me, where did I say you lose ammo? Lots of games have implemented reloading in a clip based system without making you lose ammo.

Yes, guess what - THEY DON'T USE A UNIFIED AMMO SYSTEM. A clip based system isn't a unified ammo system. This is the point you can't seem to grasp.

Could you pull your head out of your fucking ass?

~Steve


Listen to me Steve. Listen to the sound of my voice telling you you are being an idiot. You are wrong. Reloading within a unified ammo setup is stupid, stupid idea. Accept it, move away from the keyboard and move the hell on.

 
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291. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 21:20 JediLuke
 
OMFG, can you be more dense and stubborn?

Maybe trying to explain shit to you is making it rub off?

Unified ammo does NOT mean "we all use the same brand of ammo in seperate clips", it means "all weapons share the exact same source of ammo". Once you move from one to the other IT'S NOT UNIFIED

What the fuck are you trying to say here? Yea, they all share the same base source of ammo, which presumably is assembled by a mini Universal Constructor into different forms for different guns. You're acting like the finite supply of ammo exists in all of your guns simultaneously. Even if the concept were possible, you'd still have to put the ammo into the gun!

There are no clips, that's a figment of your imagination.

I see, so every time you pull up a weapon your entire supply of ammo is contained in this weapon, and whenever you switch weapons your entire supply is somehow magically transferred? If they really wanted to do it this way, they would've been better off only implementing one gun with a lot of different firing modes, kind of like the OICW in reality. Again their design goals seem to conflict, as they want only one source of ammo which doesn't necessitate reloading or swapping, but they want many guns which are pretty much exactly the same as their 20th century conventional counterparts.

With the unified ammo system DX2 has, reloading would work as I described it which we both agreed would be a bad thing.

Where do you get this shit? I said:

The way you described it is one solution, and I think that would work just fine, really.

Or I suggested an alternative solution, which you again jump to incorrect conclusions about:

Or when you bring up a new weapon it could always start with a fresh clip, presumably loaded offscreen

That would work with unified ammo?? Then you lose ammo every time you swap weapons or reload!

Tell me, where did I say you lose ammo? Lots of games have implemented reloading in a clip based system without making you lose ammo. Like... hm, let me think... DEUS EX. The leftover bullets from the partial clip would go back into your pool of ammo.

Would you think about this before responding again?

Could you pull your head out of your fucking ass?

~Steve

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 21:33.
 
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290. No subject Nov 24, 2003, 21:18 Acleacius
 
Apparently this needs to be reposted.
Think this has cause more responses in a single topic than HL2
http://www.petitiononline.com/DXIWDemo/petition.html
Think the petition has been getting 500 sig's a day, thats pretty intense for a demo.

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 21:19.
 
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.That is easy.All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.It works the same way in any country.
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289. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 21:11 RegularX
 
OMFG, can you be more dense and stubborn?

Unified ammo does NOT mean "we all use the same brand of ammo in seperate clips", it means "all weapons share the exact same source of ammo". Once you move from one to the other IT'S NOT UNIFIED. You now have seperate pieces of ammo. You can't try to make a decent system out of one without changing the other, hence the connection between the two. Once you let that sink into your skull, it becomes painfully obvious.

There are no clips, that's a figment of your imagination. There's a counter on the hud to count how many times the ammo bar will refill - that's not the same thing. With the unified ammo system DX2 has, reloading would work as I described it which we both agreed would be a bad thing.

Or when you bring up a new weapon it could always start with a fresh clip, presumably loaded offscreen

That would work with unified ammo?? Then you lose ammo every time you swap weapons or reload! Why? because it's unified. Hurrah, that's an improvement.

Would you think about this before responding again?

Please??

 
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288. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 20:44 JediLuke
 
But it is there. As now you seem to agree.

Huh? No, it still isn't there. In fact in my last post I named two different ways that reloading could work with unified ammo. Besides, your argument before seemed to come from a realism standpoint, which made no sense. Even if every gun uses the same ammo, you'd still have to reload. There's no reason you couldn't reload with unified ammo. Unified ammo and no reloading are still bad ideas.

~Steve

 
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287. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 20:31 RegularX
 
I don't know where you got the idea that I want unified ammo and reloading

I didn't. You said: You seem to see an intrinsic connection between unified ammo and lack of reloading which isn't there.

But it is there. As now you seem to agree. What I've been saying all along is that reloading is useless with this ammo system. Sorry if it was confusing, but I've been saying the same thing from my first response. I even broke it down in the "reloading" response, but apparently it took a blow by blow example to show you what I meant.

I think Ion Storm made a big mistake by releasing a demo. I think this is a game that has to be experienced in large sums to see if much of the mechanics add up or not. Will it be as great as the original? Probably not, but that will still leaves a lot of room for a fine game.

Hopefully they'll change some things due to user reaction so that the demo's not a complete loss.

 
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286. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 20:04 JediLuke
 
Maybe it would help if you would stop assuming you're right and think about what you're asking.

Last try to explain this. Load the demo. Go to the room with the shotgun and ammo. Take both. Arm the shotgun. Fire enough rounds that the ammo bar is almost depleted. Switch to pistol. Fire like, two shots and the "clip" is gone.

If you had your wish, you would have just reloaded.

No, again, you're making unnecessary assumptions, not to mention the fact that you act as though you've put it that way before when you haven't. The way you described it is one solution, and I think that would work just fine, really. Or when you bring up a new weapon it could always start with a fresh clip, presumably loaded offscreen. Besides, I don't know where you got the idea that I want unified ammo and reloading -- I want regular ammo and reloading, like the first game, like an actual weapon in the physical universe. It seems like they're going to too much trouble to create a gameworld that corresponds to player expectations of an actual world (sound propogation, light and shadow, physics, AI, etc.) to create a system as wacky as this one. And I'll reiterate, I don't think that this is a giant gameplay flaw. But it is a simplification and it is unneccesary. I don't see how anyone can say that this system is better than the one from the first game. Sequels shouldn't break things that worked in the original. And Deadeye is right, the expanding crosshair needn't have been tossed out either. Taken collectively, the regression of all of these small features adds up, and it can be pretty disappointing, especially since we've seen these features work in tons of previous FPS games, including DX.

At this point, if you don't buy it, go to the ion storm forums and ask them. You've descended into name calling over this and I don't have any more desire to debate with someone being an asshole over a game discussion - so take it to them.

I've been on the ion forums, it's not like I think that your explanation is the wrong one and that they would give me the "real" answer. I think it's a dumb decision and there is no real explanation, so you're coughing up stupid reasoning for it. At least what you said here made some sense. I've resorted to "name calling" out of exasperation. Most of what you've said up until this point has been utterly inane and devoid of logic, even in response to completely rational posts.

You and I discussing it, or me discussing it in the IS forum, isn't going to change their decision. I just think it's a very poor design decision and I think it's silly when people try to provide excuses for it instead of acknowledging that.

~Steve

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 20:12.
 
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285. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 19:47 DedEye
 
I cancelled mine today. Picking up X2 The Threat instead.

How about aiming, let's get rid of that. Just point your single gun which never has to be reloaded in the general direction of the enemy and click. That's so much more streamlined, you don't have to have all of that wasted mouse motion. You could just imagine that your character has really good aim and is always on target.

In some respects they have. I didn't see a crosshair demonstrating my increasingly accurate shot as I aim.

Individually, the features missing aren't going to have that big of an impact on gameplay. As a whole, well, everyone's taste is different.

How does removing features, or "streamlining" add to the appeal?

And why shouldn't I be surprised and disappointed? I pre-ordered DE and they came through. Out of the thousands of games I've played over the last 25 years, DE is one of the best. I've waited a long time for DE:IW, and it doesn't look like it's going to happen. Yet I remain hopeful......

If I hear a lot of stellar things about this game I'll revisit my decision. Until then there are lots of other titles that need my attention. Here's to hoping I'm wrong....


 
Avatar 14820
 
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284. Re: crap, what happened Nov 24, 2003, 19:38 MeatForce
 
Nice links, Yakumo -- I had totally forgotten about all that "vintage" stuff.

Seeing it now just serves to piss me off all the more, since I realise now that I was expecting something of the quality of work on display in frickin' 2002. Where has the time gone?!?!?

The lack of polish this thing shows means that wrecking the thing the way they did must have taken some serious time...

Goofs.

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 19:40.
 
-----
I'm not even angry. I'm being so sincere right now, even though you broke my heart and killed me.
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283. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 19:31 RegularX
 
No, it's not. You know, I'm having trouble not coming to the conclusion that you're an idiot. If you had a clip that could be used in any type of weapon it would still have to be fed into the weapon. Seriously, it's not that big a deal, but just drop it, it doesn't make any sense

Maybe it would help if you would stop assuming you're right and think about what you're asking.

Last try to explain this. Load the demo. Go to the room with the shotgun and ammo. Take both. Arm the shotgun. Fire enough rounds that the ammo bar is almost depleted. Switch to pistol. Fire like, two shots and the "clip" is gone.

If you had your wish, you would have just reloaded. Is that more realistic? No, because you weren't firing the pistol before. It doesn't increase immersion or plausibility, it reminds players of the unified ammo system and how little sense it makes.

Does it make it more strategic? No. In fact, it punishes you for doing something common in a reload system - swapping to a fully loaded weapon instead of taking the time to reload the current one. Now you have to reload any weapon.

It would add annoyance and nothing more. Well, some more weapon animations.

The only real solution is different weapons having different clips and different ammo levels. At that point you would pretty much have different ammo types and no unified ammo system. Well, you could just have some animations but that would just be lip service.

It's the exact same system as Jedi Knight with a different HUD setup. Does that make it OK? Not really, unless they made all the weapons energy based. But reloading is still a victim of the unified ammo, whether you like it or not.

At this point, if you don't buy it, go to the ion storm forums and ask them. You've descended into name calling over this and I don't have any more desire to debate with someone being an asshole over a game discussion - so take it to them. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that reloading and the ammo decisions were married to each other.


 
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282. crap, what happened Nov 24, 2003, 18:41 Yakumo
 
if demo == current only state of the PC game not ballsed up accidental xbox release then...

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/screens.html?page=45

http://koti.welho.com/bnystrom/Deus%20Ex%202%20at%20E3%202002.wmv

ta for reminding us Ghostdog ( http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP619612110&id=36654 )

so when did MS swoop in with the $$$ bung then... pshhhhh

 
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281. Re: a few points Nov 24, 2003, 18:22 JediLuke
 
1) It is logical that a bar would require your weapons to be deactivated for the same reason you are searched before entering a night club in the real world.

Why is this point hard to understand? It's not just the fact that your nano-weapons get deactivated, which kind of hurts the plausibility in my eyes -- it would make a lot more sense if they just said you had to leave your weapons at the door -- but they broadcast a code which DEACTIVATES YOUR KNIFE AND BATON. That's the stupid part, and it just reeks of sloppiness and a rush-job, as do the ATMs and the ugly useless riot prod. One of the IS devs openly admitted on their forum that these three problems were a result of not having enough time to do it right.

~Steve

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 18:26.
 
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280. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 18:14 JediLuke
 
No, it's more along the lines of "if I had some magic clip that can be used in a pistol, a shotgun, a flamethrower and a sniper rifle, it makes just as much sense that it's all one clip that doesn't have to be swapped out."

No, it's not. You know, I'm having trouble not coming to the conclusion that you're an idiot. If you had a clip that could be used in any type of weapon it would still have to be fed into the weapon. Seriously, it's not that big a deal, but just drop it, it doesn't make any sense.

All your "clips" go into the same pool, despite what the HUD might be telling you. All weapons use the same ammo, they just fire at different rates - that's what the game says. If they're going to pull something like that, why are you expecting them to add reloading for ... realism? That's absurd.

No, it's not absurd. Was reloading absurd in DX? Did people play the game and say "Gosh, I'm so sick of all this reloading." It's called immersion. Plausibility. Again, this isn't something that kills the gameplay, but I'm just dumbfounded by the vacuousness of your arguments here. Deciding when to reload is a tactical decision. It adds depth and believability to the combat. It worked in the first game and in every other FPS, and there was no need to make things simpler by removing it.

If you're dropping things like reloading, why should you have to choose from more than one weapon? Why not just have one gun? They all work the same way, they just shoot projectiles, and it would be much more streamlined, wouldn't it? How about aiming, let's get rid of that. Just point your single gun which never has to be reloaded in the general direction of the enemy and click. That's so much more streamlined, you don't have to have all of that wasted mouse motion. You could just imagine that your character has really good aim and is always on target.

~Steve

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 18:24.
 
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279. Oh My God Nov 24, 2003, 17:45 NeOCidE
 
Deus Ex2 is a masterpiece.The very finest AI, Groundbreaking interactivity, a story so deep and complex that it would bend the minds of it's creators. A HUD that robocop would be jealous of........

......And then I woke up drenched in piss.

 
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278. Re: Reloading and Ammo Nov 24, 2003, 17:40 RegularX
 
Doesn't the Jedi Knight series use the same setups for rifles?

I think it's a victim of the streamlined inventory approach. There's nowhere to control ammo in the current inventory screen, hence there's no real ammo types, hence no distinction between ammo ammounts/loads/clips, hence no reloading.

Which I don't even think you can blame the XBox for, plenty of console games have RPG inventory screens with the versatility to allow any of the above.

The only user experience excuse you can give is "so people don't have to worry about it". Also, if this one goes like the other one did, it might be hard to determine what weapons people are using by the end of the game. But even that seems like it could have been solved (ammo rooms like the first game) without cutting this subsection.

 
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277. Re: Reloading and Ammo Nov 24, 2003, 17:28 Scottish Martial Arts
 
Yeah I don't agree with the decision either but I doubt that was the rational behind it.
This comment was edited on Nov 24, 17:29.
 
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276. Re: Reloading and Ammo Nov 24, 2003, 17:24 amygdala
 
One has to wonder about the design decisions that led us to Unified Ammo and no reloading.

Warren: "Okay so in DX1, we've got ~40 different weapons and ~17 types of ammunition."
Harvey: "We should try and simplify things for DX2. The complicated interface is killing the console market."
Warren: "Okay, how about you have Unified Ammo, and each time you reload a weapon, you synthesize new ammo for that gun? Need more darts? Make 'em when you reload."
Harvey: "I think that will slow things down, gameplay-wise. Just have one ammo type and no reloading."
Warren: "So you could blow through one hundred and seventeen rounds of ammo using the sniper rifle? Yeah, that makes sense."
Harvey: "I'm sure everyone will love it."

-----

And just as an aside, I already played a game this year with unified ammo and a circular UI. It was called TRON 2.0. Every weapon used energy, and the upgrades menu used drag and drop. It was a little unusual, but it became second nature after a while.


 
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275. Re: a few points Nov 24, 2003, 17:20 Scottish Martial Arts
 
That's totally incorrect. From the first day they were saying that the player could take any approach to this game that he/she wanted - not allowing them to do this drastically affects the open endedness of everything. In Deus Ex 1 you could go into the bar in Hell's Kitchen and kill everyone you wanted to.

1) It is logical that a bar would require your weapons to be deactivated for the same reason you are searched before entering a night club in the real world.

2) You couldn't kill Jock.


 
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274. Re: Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 16:58 RegularX
 
So in real-world terms, according to your argument, I could say something like "I have three pistols that all fire 9mm ammunition. Because they use the same type of ammo, I can fire one of these pistols endlessly without reloading.

No, it's more along the lines of "if I had some magic clip that can be used in a pistol, a shotgun, a flamethrower and a sniper rifle, it makes just as much sense that it's all one clip that doesn't have to be swapped out."

All your "clips" go into the same pool, despite what the HUD might be telling you. All weapons use the same ammo, they just fire at different rates - that's what the game says. If they're going to pull something like that, why are you expecting them to add reloading for ... realism? That's absurd.

You want reloading just for reloading sake at this point. If it added so much complexity, depth and enjoyment to your game just count your shots. Every five shots, stop firing and yell "RELOAD" really loud. Now continue firing. You just implemented reloading into the game without coding a single line.

 
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273. Re-newing my Preorder Nov 24, 2003, 16:47 kanniballl
 
I've decided I to renew my pre-order. Personally, the interface (inventory, weapons, and SECURITY TERMINAL) really killed it for me, as well as the PUNY maps. I'm WILLING to put up with a cr@ppy riot prod and unified ammo. I'm just hoping SOME of this can be rectified by the release, or the demo wasn't as current as we all believe.

The way I figure it, I just beet the original DX again yesterday (3 times now). And I owe it to myself to at least TRY the sequel and to beat that one as well. Classic DX is still my all-time favorite (even moerso than Thief and SS2), and I'll be kicking myself if I don't play it.

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 16:49.
 
"Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you."
-Fry, Futurama
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