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15 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
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15. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 18, 2003, 01:39 Wazootyman
 
It actually did take you approximately 150+ hours of playing Baldur's Gate 2 to get to those levels though, so that's not at all bad.

You can spend a lot of time on side quests that don't net much xp, but in the end game, the xp is so high you will be leveling up 3 times in a few hours of play. That is "cheating" the DnD rules...

Granted, but we've had approximately 10 or so RPG's limit us to level caps of 8-10 in the past two or three years. Doesn't that get boring to you?

What I was hoping for was the implementation of all the rules/spells I've never seen. I've never played PnP... In fact, I've never even played a true turn-based DnD CRPG... so all the things I've read that you can do is what excites me... To me, at least, its not the same 10 levels as before. Plus 3.5 changes some stuff... nothing radical, but it's enough to breathe some new like into a few classes.

In fact, I haven't played what I would consider a new "good" DnD rpg for some time. I'm just looking for some good CRPGage.

I guess my main points would be:
1) I don't think that limiting my level makes my character feel less uber or the game feel less satisfying. All this is determined by play balence and quality.
2) I don't think the first 10 levels are boring. Especially when there is so much more breadth here than in other DnD crpgs...

Thus, in my opinion, the seemingly "low" level cap of 10, is not a very big deal. I'm guessing its a bigger deal for you as a PnP player who has explored the game thouroghly at high (and low) levels.

 
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14. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 18, 2003, 00:19 Creston
 
silonez,

Please go back to slashdot or wherever the fuck it is you came from, you're wasting harddisk space and bandwith.

Wazooty,

1) It actually did take you approximately 150+ hours of playing Baldur's Gate 2 to get to those levels though, so that's not at all bad.

2) The box actually only says "over a hundred spells" IIRC. But even so, great, so now they've given us 600 low level spells and feats to kill goblins with. Whoohoo.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the quality of a game is not proportional to the level you can reach.

Granted, but we've had approximately 10 or so RPG's limit us to level caps of 8-10 in the past two or three years. Doesn't that get boring to you? For that matter, the fifth level spells have to be the most fucking useless in the whole bunch, and this is all you have to look forward to for your "top" level in ToEE. Wheee....

note that IWD2 does not introduce any new content beyond level ~20... you just get more HP, spell slots, saves, BAB... yawn

You also don't HAVE to play it. But it's there as an option. Personally, I don't like it when a game ends 15 minutes after I finally attain the most powerful level, or get the best weapon, or the coolest force power, or whatever. In that way, IWD2 is cool, because once you've attained level 9 spells, you can, if you so choose, just run through the whole thing again actually ENJOYING those spells you have.
That this isn't everyone's cup of tea, shrug, but the OPTION is there. What can you do in ToEE when you've finally reached that "magnificent" 10th level? Kill a few low level demons and slay T3h 3ndb0zz and that's it?
Woot.

ShadesofGrey,

It shipped to my EB here in Tulsa, I saw it on the shelf when I went to pick up Jedi Academy.

Creston

Creston, I dunno what you are smokin: 10th level 3rd edition characters are like gods compared to 10th level 2nd edition characters

Whatever I'm smoking apparently doesn't alter the rules of (A)D&D for me. A well equipped 10th level party in 2nd edition could handle just about anything. Just leafing through the 3rd edition MM (once again, I don't know anything really about 3.5), I see about 50 monsters offhand that will wipe that 10th level party out.

I've also played characters in both system to 10th level and beyond (PnP), and my 3rd edition character felt more like a mediocre level 5 than some form of God.
Obviously, that is personal experience.

This comment was edited on Sep 18, 00:23.
 
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13. No subject Sep 16, 2003, 21:58 D4rkKnight
 
On paper the level 10 limit looks bad, but when you really look at it, its not. Thats why these arguements against it mostly involve personal attacks on others to compensate for the lack of real info. If you insult them, maybe they will forget about the fact that your wrong, and there really is just as much if not MORE content in reality.

 
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12. Re: PS Sep 16, 2003, 21:50 nin
 
Why can't we all just get along?

Agreed.

Supporter of the "A happy fredster is a muted fredster" fanclub.

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11. As a side note... Sep 16, 2003, 17:27 Wazootyman
 
I never trust reviews that are written <1.5-2 weeks after the game is released (this includes exclusive release reviews, like this one).
How many times have you started a game and thought it was excellent, only to find yourself deleting it after 2 weeks of play? Initial impressions are not always the most accurate (hrm are they ever?), even if the reviewer plays all the way through.

 
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10. No subject Sep 16, 2003, 16:56 space captain
 
Creston, I dunno what you are smokin: 10th level 3rd edition characters are like gods compared to 10th level 2nd edition characters.

Oh and BTW - THE GAME IS BASED ON 1 ADVENTURE MODULE. The scope is ONE DUNGEON, not the entire world or a huge town like Baldurs Gate. It is the beginning of a series of Greyhawk games, where you take your party from level 1 to probably 30 or over.

 
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9. Flame on By All Means Sep 16, 2003, 16:47 Koblizek
 
Not to take away from your little flame war going on here, but wasn't this game (ToEE) supposed to ship today? I called EB and not only did they not have it yet, the woman said its shipping on the 24th. Anyone have any luck in Washington state (specifically greater Seattle area)? Later.

Shades0fGrey

 
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8. PS Sep 16, 2003, 16:41 Wazootyman
 
Why can't we all just get along?
=D

 
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7. Level 10 Sep 16, 2003, 16:38 Wazootyman
 
1) Most DnD games with high caps, quite frankly, cheat. By the end of BG2, I was leveling up after every plot point (which occured about every 1-0.5 hours of gameplay). Other CRPGs as well deal out insaine amounts of XP for quest events... That is ridiculous. Leveling in the DnD system should be a gradual process, with high level characters only appearing after many months of PnP. Granted, CRPGs move faster than most PnP, but still, leveling up over three times a day at level 15 is just plain silly. Personally, I think it takes the feeling of accomplishment out of it. Not to say I didn't enjoy BG2, IWD2 (ok, IWD2 was so-so), etc, but TOEE is trying to stay closer to the base ruleset.

2) TOEE has more spells than any DnD CRPG I have ever played/heard about. I think it is in the order of ~600...? Furthermore it implements many features that other CRPGs skim over or ignore. Clearly it would be exponentially more time consuming to implement higher levels when you are attempting to include almost every single spell/ability/feat/etc from the base rulebook...

This said, I agree... I enjoy leveling my characters to uber proportions and using all the mad 9th level spells... but that does not make me feel that playing a more realistically paced "lower level" game (again, level 10 is supposed to be a very powerful level, even if it is not as impressive next to level 20), will be any less fun. Personally, I enjoyed the goblin encampment area of IWD2 much more than the rest of the areas, even though my characters were probably around levels 4-8 while the final areas bordered on tedious for me at levels 14-17. Though fireball isn't much compared to wail of the banshee, I felt pretty uber as I shot one into the middle of a horde of advancing goblins. Though the instant death spells at (spell) level 9 are much more powerful than anything at level 5, I didn't feel very powerful when 8/10 enemies saved vs them unless I first debuffed em.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the quality of a game is not proportional to the level you can reach. TOEE has more spells for a 10th level character than IWD2 has for level 30 characters (note that IWD2 does not introduce any new content beyond level ~20... you just get more HP, spell slots, saves, BAB... yawn). Though I don't want to leap to any conclusions, I will definately watch to see how the game is recieved.

 
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6. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 16, 2003, 15:32 Pineapple Ferguson
 
Well I could take the time to respond point by point like you did, but I have better things to do, like not crying like a fucking baby.

This is funny though: Granted, I could have known that ToEE was going to be limited, but since nobody had ever said anything to that effect, I was quietly hoping that Troika deemed level caps a stupid idea, and would have just let you build characters all the way up to the high level stuff. So much for thinking a developer might do something challenging for a change...


No one ever said that there was a 10 level cap? You mean no one ever said that in any of the numerous FAQs and previews? Or no one personally emailed you and told you that? It's obvious that you're an idiot. I win, you lose, now STFU kthxbye.

This comment was edited on Sep 16, 15:32.
 
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5. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 16, 2003, 15:01 Creston
 
Hey look, another newbie fresh out of elementary school decides to take offense that I don't like his personal favorite game.

Silonez, after you've taken your reading 101, pay attention to the following.


ToEE is based on an actual Pen and Paper module designed for levels 1-8. Level 10 in 3rd edition is pretty powerful

Compared to what? Maybe compared to GURPS or something, but not, for example, to second edition AD&D, in which 10th level characters were far more powerful than they are in 3rd edition. I haven't actually tried 3.5, so I can't really judge on that.


Troika had like 20 months to make this game. There's gotta be some sort of limit on character levels to keep the game balanced with finite content. Chances are if this game lives up to expecations there will be future sequels.

Thank you. Which is exactly why there are level caps in RPGs to begin with, so that they can make more games which they can sell for full price, when they're really nothing more than expansion packs. And development time vs content, whatever. Take an extra 6 months and make a complete game.


You want to talk about IWD2? They were using an engine that was already done and had 4 years of polishing, including spell effects and monster models. Sure they might have added a few little things, but for the most part all they needed to concentrate on was game content. And don't forget it was a sequel.

What the fuck does that have to do with the ONE thing I mentioned about IWD, namely that it has a "hardcore" mode, so you can play it through with the same party, this time at a much ramped up difficulty level?

NWN? Shitty gameplay, and a poorly balanced campaign. Besides, there's no way you hit the level cap when you finished it anyway. Sure, you could always make your own modules if you wanted to play the higher levels, but the trade off is a poorly implemented set of rules, and an ugly, limiting, tileset.

That's your opinion. And once again, what does that have to do with the fact that it caters for characters levels 1-20?


I'm surprised you didn't cry about the turn-based combat and lack of multiplayer.

I'm surprised that when your fingers hit the keyboard, anything moderately coherent comes out. Stop looking at those 12 year old cheerleaders, go back to class, learn to read, then come back to talk to me.

Creston


Edit :
Anyone who's ever PnP'ed knows how much fun low levels can be if you have a good DM. Well, TTOEE is the definitive adventure for low level adventurers. It's about RP. It isn't about making your group as uber as can be.

Halsy, did you ever PLAY the Temple of Elemental Evil? There IS no roleplaying in that module. It's a dungeon hack. That's all it's ever been, that's all it ever will be. It was one of those "marvels" of roleplaying that Gary himself inflicted upon the unaware world. It's one of those where you enter a room to find 20 bugbears inside, kill them, enter the next room, to find 20 giant spiders inside.

According to the review from Gamespy (and actually, according to Troika themselves, who said they pretty much left the adventure unchanged), that's really all the CRPG is, as well. Combat combat combat and more combat. Which, actually, PRECISELY should cater to the Monty Haul gamer.k

But barring that, don't you just get tired of constantly fighting the same shit over and over again? How many more D&D adventures are going to come out, in which you fight the obligatory kobolds, the obligatory Ogres, the obligatory orcs, giant spiders etc.
When is a developer ever going to give us some high level content? More and more I'm starting to get very excited about the next NWN expansion, because it finally does JUST THAT.

Granted, I could have known that ToEE was going to be limited, but since nobody had ever said anything to that effect, I was quietly hoping that Troika deemed level caps a stupid idea, and would have just let you build characters all the way up to the high level stuff. So much for thinking a developer might do something challenging for a change...

This comment was edited on Sep 16, 15:10.
 
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4. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 16, 2003, 14:03 Halsy
 
I agree with sil. You have to look at what the overall adventure is trying to achieve. This is after all, a real CRPG. Not the Monty Haul Uber Leet Power Gamer fest that some people think it should be after beeing weened on crap like IWD.
Anyone who's ever PnP'ed knows how much fun low levels can be if you have a good DM. Well, TTOEE is the definitive adventure for low level adventurers. It's about RP. It isn't about making your group as uber as can be.
I wasn't even aware there was level cap in the game, but I'm glad there is. It leaves one longing for more -which a good game should do - and ups the chances of a new module for mid-level chars to advance in which I'm all for.


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3. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 16, 2003, 13:40 John
 
Creston wasn't talking about the gameplay or game engine in IWD2 or NWN. All he was doing is comparing the leveling up in those games. No need to get all mad about it.

 
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2. Re: Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 16, 2003, 13:19 Pineapple Ferguson
 
Boo-fucking-hoo. Couple things you should know once the tears from your eyes are dry enough for you to read:

ToEE is based on an actual Pen and Paper module designed for levels 1-8. Level 10 in 3rd edition is pretty powerful.

Troika had like 20 months to make this game. There's gotta be some sort of limit on character levels to keep the game balanced with finite content. Chances are if this game lives up to expecations there will be future sequels.

You want to talk about IWD2? They were using an engine that was already done and had 4 years of polishing, including spell effects and monster models. Sure they might have added a few little things, but for the most part all they needed to concentrate on was game content. And don't forget it was a sequel.

NWN? Shitty gameplay, and a poorly balanced campaign. Besides, there's no way you hit the level cap when you finished it anyway. Sure, you could always make your own modules if you wanted to play the higher levels, but the trade off is a poorly implemented set of rules, and an ugly, limiting, tileset.

I'm surprised you didn't cry about the turn-based combat and lack of multiplayer.

This comment was edited on Sep 16, 13:25.
 
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1. Temple of Elemental Evil Sep 16, 2003, 12:45 Creston
 
I was very interested (to say the least), until I learned that once again, a developer can't be arsed to let you run the whole gamut of AD&D goodness, and decides to put a fucking

LEVELCAP

into its game. In case of ToEE, it's level 10.
I've lost count of the number of times I've levelled up a bunch of first level morons to levels 8-10, and somehow was supposed to feel thrilled that I had achieved the pinnacle of attainable power, the Cone of Cold....

Although I didn't like the game itself very much, Icewind Dale 2's system reigns supreme. Levels 1-30, one time through you can go up to level 17 or so, and then we just add a hardcore mode.

Every developer from now on who DOES NOT follow this procedure for his rpg finds no sale from my wallet.
Level 10 cap my ass. Even NWN, for all its flaws, at least let us go up to level 20.

Creston

This comment was edited on Sep 16, 12:46.
 
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