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Ships Ahoy: Shadows of Undrentide

Atari Releases Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide is the press release announcing that the NWN add-on is now available in North American Stores. Here's the description from the announcement: "Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide offers role playing fans even more D&D features than the groundbreaking original. Additions include: new skills, including Tumble and Appraise; new feats, such as Divine Might, Great Cleave and Bullheaded; new weapons, such as Holy Water Flasks and Choking Powder; five new prestige classes, including the Blackguard, Shadowdancer, and Assassin; new monsters from the D&D universe, including the Pit Fiend, Cockatrice, Sphinx and Manticore; and over fifty new spells."

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47. Re: No subject Jul 5, 2003, 13:38 Xenos Overdrive
 
Point is, while its some what okay, now that i've given it some time its still far from adequately portraying a PnP experience. They raped the 3rd edition rules to get them in NWN.

The 3rd Edition rule set used for this game was a modified version of the said rule set. It's kind of a rule of law in electronic gaming that you can't translate a rule set one hundred per cent. Not that they don't try, but it just doesn't work that way.

Some purists will always cry at this fact, but then again, if you go by some of their arguments, CRPG's aren't actually role playing games at all.

This comment was edited on Jul 5, 13:40.
 
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46. Re: No subject Jul 5, 2003, 12:19 Moonbender
 
My biggest pet peve is that it just feels half assed, whats there is okay, but its not any more impressive than even Baulders Gate 1.
*cringe* You must be a great fan of Bioware's RPGs since you can't even spell the name of their most famous two RPGs correctly.

 
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45. Re: better because... Jul 2, 2003, 23:51 Creston
 
Creston: It certainly does tell you in the manual that a feat can only be taken at level 1. Right where it says 'prerequisite'...

What, you mean I actually was supposed to thoroughly READ that manual before complaining about something? The horror!



Ehmm.. Oops. My bad.

Creston

Edit : As for whether NWN was going to be a single player experience or more focussed on multiplayer and creating your own worlds, I have to admit that in my opinion, it seemed that Bioware was stressing that they were focussing on the tools and the multiplayer. Originally I wasn't even going to play the single player game, me and a buddy had designed a new D&D world specifically for translation to NWN, so we could get our old group back together for some D&D goodness (since each of us lives in a different country by now).
The fact THAT the OC was so crap wouldn't have bothered me so much if it wasn't for the fact that the multiplayer was bugged to Satan's Arsehole and Beyond, the DM client didn't get a single fix until patch 1.24 (And the faction bug wasn't completely solved until 1.27), and that the toolset was nowhere near as easy to use as they had pretended. (At one point, Bioware specifically stated that they would have an easy pulldown menu in place of scripting, so that you wouldn't have to be a C++ expert to get something done. Obviously, when they said that, they had been drinking too much of that wacky Canadian Beer.)
All of this combined is what pissed me off about Neverwinter Nights.

But, sense actually struck, and I figured I'd give it another look in half a year, which turned into a year, and it does look a lot better now, at least stability wise etc. The graphics engine still sucks.

I might actually have another go at seeing if I can't create some form of semi-persistent world to play in. Or I could study for my CCNP. Sigh.

This comment was edited on Jul 3, 00:00.
 
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44. No subject Jul 2, 2003, 19:00 Xombie
 
Another thing: NWN was originally announced as multiplayer-only, when it was announced officially at GenCon '99:
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=postmessage&boardid=1&id=0&threadid=4360
 
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
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43. Re: No subject Jul 2, 2003, 17:07 blut4rsky
 
The fact of the matter, like it or not, is NWN wasn't sold as an "online rpg toolkit designed to let players make games." It was sold as a new RPG that you could also play online if you really wanted to. Thats called dishonesty, and dishonest people can suck my big fat cockhole for christmas

You are just plain wrong, and no amount of braggadocio is going to hide it or change the truth.

Direct from the NWN press kit:

Neverwinter Nights allows you to create your own worlds. This revolutionary game will come with all the tools needed to construct your own unique lands of adventure. The Neverwinter Nights Aurora Toolset allows even novice users to construct everything from a quiet, misty forest or a dripping cavern of foul evil, to a king’s court. All the monsters, items, set pieces and settings are there for world builders to use. But do not stop there; construct traps, encounters, custom monsters and magic items to make your adventure unique.

But the Neverwinter experience is not just for one person- adventure with all your friends. Neverwinter Nights can be played online with up to 64 friends, all sharing in the adventure. You can organize and run your own adventures through the role of the Dungeon Master and control all the monsters, creatures and characters your friends meet as they journey on their quest. A powerful piece of software that is included with Neverwinter Nights, the DM Client, allows nearly unlimited control for running your own adventures for your friends.


Imagine that.... absolutely NO mention of Aribeth, or a plague, or the plight of Neverwinter. I don't think your issue is as much a matter of false advertising as it is of consumer ignorance.

This comment was edited on Jul 2, 17:27.
 
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42. Re: No subject Jul 2, 2003, 16:29 Xombie
 
I wonder how many people they suckered into getting it, expecting an awsome pnp experience and then they were told by assholes "dude0r, teh game is 4 teh online play."
How in the hell did you expect to get any sort of a PnP experience without a DM?

NWN wasn't sold as an "online rpg toolkit designed to let players make games."
No, that's not a fact. 3/4 of the hype about the game was the Aurora toolset. Hence the release of it before the game shipped. Also notice the back of the box.
It was well known by the gaming community that the big deal was the DM part. If you didn't know this, then you must have been living under a rock for the last four years, or simply didn't research the game before you bought it. Did you think they released TWO guides for the game just for fun? No. They released it because half the game was modules.
Anyone that expected BG3 wasn't looking at any previews, they were looking at the word "Bioware" on the box, and thought that it would be a typical Bioware game.

but at $80 (NWN + Shadows) I should be getting a game that makes Fallout or Planescape look like Paper Mario...
I don't care if it was even $200, or a million for that matter. If you expected on any level for Bioware to top classics like Fallout or Planescape then you were only tricking yourself, and it was no one's fault but your own.

Maybe you should actually stop rushing out to buy games simply for their developer.


This comment was edited on Jul 2, 16:36.
 
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
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41. Fer Pete's sake Jul 2, 2003, 16:18 Bloodwolf
 
Quit yer crying and move on with your life  
Lord BloodWolf
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40. No subject Jul 2, 2003, 14:43 Nonicknameforme
 
Point is, while its some what okay, now that i've given it some time its still far from adequately portraying a PnP experience. They raped the 3rd edition rules to get them in NWN.

My biggest pet peve is that it just feels half assed, whats there is okay, but its not any more impressive than even Baulders Gate 1.

And trust me I "get it" I fully understanded NWN was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Bioware lost alot of respect (what tiny bit they had) from me when they release NWN touting it like it was a game. I wonder how many people they suckered into getting it, expecting an awsome pnp experience and then they were told by assholes "dude0r, teh game is 4 teh online play." A big resounding fuck you goes out to anyone who would use that excuese. The fact of the matter, like it or not, is NWN wasn't sold as an "online rpg toolkit designed to let players make games." It was sold as a new RPG that you could also play online if you really wanted to. Thats called dishonesty, and dishonest people can suck my big fat cockhole for christmas.

The reason I even bothered with Undrentide is I had a useless 50 dollar game sitting around and figured I'd finaly get some use out of it. Lets just say if I had paied full price for the game, i'd probably be driving to burn down biowares home office right about now.

Its not bad, Shadows that is, but at $80 (NWN + Shadows) I should be getting a game that makes Fallout or Planescape look like Paper Mario... Insted its a pretty shoddy facsimilie of a RPG.

You consumer whores are great, I can't wait till i'm delievering shitty products to your begging hands, while you fund my Porsche and Minigun collections...

 
"I'm too much of a narcisist to really hate stupid people."
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39. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 12:18 Schnapple
 
But who here actually thought the single player game in Quake 1 rocked the house?
Well the complaint about Quake wasn't that the SP game did or did not rock, but rather that the game didn't have a plot (other than a tacked-on "story") and was essentially DOOM with better graphics. It's an example of what happens when drastic design changes happen late into a game's cycle - at the last minute most of the innovative concepts went out the window in favor of a lean and mean gameplay style.

And I of course still bought it and loved it.
 
Schnapple

http://www.schnapple.com/
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38. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 11:52 Xombie
 
I go and pay extra 10$ and register on some site to download some modules
Why would you have to pay extra? Or register, for that matter.
Most of the NWN modules in existence are available free, without registration, on NeverwinterVault.
 
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
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37. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 11:49 ReDeeMeR
 
Ok so hmm paying almost 60$(im in europe) for the lacuster SP and since my current place doesnt allow me for a better conn I'm stuck to shitty SP, so now what do I do? I go and pay extra 10$ and register on some site to download some modules...all in all 70$ for a crapload of hack and slash and wasted time. Probably the only redeeming thing would be those couple awesome lan games we had, but that's bout it

 
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36. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 11:42 Tom
 
Also, did a level editor ship with Quake? I sure don't remember one.

No way. It took a long time for user-made level editors to come out. Some crazy people created maps with TEXT EDITORS in the meantime. The tools id used to make the maps were not meant for running on PCs - they were using relatively high powered NeXTStep workstations and Alpha servers to compile maps. But people in the community worked hard to make map-making on the PC a reality. id was very helpful too, of course, releasing source code to qbsp, vis, and light... But people had to make their own editors from scratch.

 
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35. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 11:36 Tom
 
But who here actually thought the single player game in Quake 1 rocked the house?

I thought the single player game in Quake 1 rocked the house. It wasn't perfect, but for its time it was amazing. And fun. The level design was interesting and refreshing - and I still feel that way when I go back and start it up every once in awhile...

 
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34. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 11:28 Xombie
 
My opinion is simply that Bioware is just trying to cover the tracks of poor game design by saying the game is community driven.
No, the game was always intended to be community driven.
-This is why the OC's are separated into parts, and only a few things can carry over from one chapter to the next (so that people can start their groups on any chapter they want)
-The is the sole reason for only having one henchman (the OC was designed primarily for parties consisting of players).
-This was the reason why they put so much emphasis on the toolkit (which had a beta released before the game came out)
-This is the reason why bioware has "neverwinter wednesday" to provide more community resources (e.g. the release of knolls, kobolds, and the like in subsequent patches)

I could continue on this, if you'd like.
The game was meant primarily for multiplayer. The game design reflects this.
 
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
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33. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 11:00 Scottish Martial Arts
 
But who here actually thought the single player game in Quake 1 rocked the house?

Did you play the game in '96? FPSs at that time were all about visceral action and good level design, which Quake had in droves. The FPS that tried to expand gameplay wise were typically from LGS and typically sold all of about ten copies. Quake 1 hasn't aged well but it was an incredible experience in '96, a lot of people argue that deathmatch reached it's zenith with Quake 1.

I can see the point you are trying to make, but 7 years ago Quake 1 was an awesome single-player game. And all the user created levels? I played tons of 'em and only a handful exceeded the level design done by iD. In the case of NWN the singleplayer was crappy right out of the box and user created modules frequently exceed the incredibly low standard Bioware set. Also, did a level editor ship with Quake? I sure don't remember one.

My opinion is simply that Bioware is just trying to cover the tracks of poor game design by saying the game is community driven. User created content should be a great bonus for your $50 (or $55 in the case of NWN) not the selling point. Had Bioware created an excellent Official Campaign, I would be much less critical of the game. Then the multiplayer and user made mods would be bonuses to an all ready great game, not superfluous elements trying to make up for bad game design.


 
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32. Re: FYI Jul 2, 2003, 10:47 Tigger
 
My guess would be.... a blue tower!

Too funny...

--
Tigger

'Got CS...gas?'
 
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--
Tigger
Vic Fontaine for President
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31. Re: Good extra content for developers Jul 2, 2003, 10:47 Scottish Martial Arts
 
You are incorrect on this one. Neverwinter Nights was always intended to be a community driven resource for bringing pnp adventures alive on the pc. If you bought the game for the OC only and felt disappointed, well you didn't do your homework very well.

Oh, I get it now! How could I be so stupid! As long as I say the game is community driven, and as long as I include a level editor, I'm allowed to ship what ever kind of crappy game I want and still get mounds of praise. Damn, I should get into the games business if this is all it takes.

Let me introduce my newest game: Neverfun Nights. It will include an incredibly easy to use level editor so all you inspiring modmakers can make whatever sort of game you want, because quite frankly the game that will ship will blow goats for nickels. Remember, don't blame me for the shitty campaign that comes with the game, blame yourself! You shouldn't judge MY game based on what I MADE, you should judge it on what the community made with it! Because afterall this is a community driven game, where the players have to struggle to make the game fun while I rake in the cash.


 
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30. Party? Jul 2, 2003, 10:40 N
 
For what it's worth, I'm infinately glad to not have a party to control. When I play tabletop D&D I'm not controlling a party, I'm controlling one, *my*, character. In game where you're allowed to take a party, I always try and play with as few of them as possible. Hell, even in NWN, I barely ever took a sidekick. Here's to CRPGs without controllable parties!

 
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29. better because... Jul 2, 2003, 10:38 Bloodwolf
 
Because actions affect alignment much better, as is the general scripting, and the plot though not stellar is better than the OC by far. There are some nice little side quests. The only thing I am truely disappointed in is the lack of prestige classes for spellcasters and good characters. The only 'good' one is the harper scout.

mrhicks: You aren't supposed to play it with characters from the OC. It's too easy if you're starting out with a 17-20 character, try starting with half that.

nonicknameforme: You don't have to start out at level one.

Creston: It certainly does tell you in the manual that a feat can only be taken at level 1. Right where it says 'prerequisite'...

If you guys need something to help you play around with your characters and get them 'just right', go get a trainer module over on nwvault.
 
Lord BloodWolf
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28. Re: FYI Jul 2, 2003, 10:37 Schnapple
 
What kind of PC do you have Blue?

My guess would be.... a blue tower!

*ducks*
 
Schnapple

http://www.schnapple.com/
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