Out of the Blue

[Mar 28, 2003, 09:09 am ET] - Share - Viewing Comments

Hmmm. Texas: 78(R) SB 1116 - - Bill Text is one of the bills mentioned on a site called Freedom to Tinker (thanks sc4r4b) as an example of proposed legislation that they say will make it illegal to use a firewall! I am not a lawyer (though I play one on TV), so I can't say for sure their interpretation of this is correct, but it certainly seems to be supported by the language in the bill(s). Here's an excerpt:

The states of Massachusetts and Texas are preparing to consider bills that apparently are intended to extend the national Digital Millennium Copyright Act. (TX bill; MA bill) The bills are obviously related to each other somehow, since they are textually similar.

Here is one example of the far-reaching harmful effects of these bills. Both bills would flatly ban the possession, sale, or use of technologies that "conceal from a communication service provider ... the existence or place of origin or destination of any communication". Your ISP is a (communication) service provider, so anything that concealed the origin or destination of any communication from your ISP would be illegal -- with no exceptions.

If you encrypt your email, you're in violation, because the "To" line of the email is concealed from your ISP by encryption. If you use a secure connection to pick up your email, you're in violation, because the "From" lines of the incoming emails are concealed from your ISP by the encrypted connection.

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32 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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32.

Re: No subject

Mar 30, 2003, 10:26

ssh

Of course the To-line can be encrypted. The only thing you have to ensure is that the mail server can decrypt it. If you don't use your ISP's mail server and use a secure connection to send your mail your ISP won't know ANYTHING about that email. Not even that it is an email. All the information it would be able to get is that you create a connection to another internet host. This is all well and good, but this isn't how the majority of e-mail on the internet is delivered. And even if your email software can work out the MX for the recipients domain, how does the smtp daemon on the other end work out which mailbox to deliver the mail to unless it has the receiver's public key? (I'm talking about pgp here, not smtps).

31.

<tapping fingers on desk>

Mar 29, 2003, 10:54

Ray Marden

Early morning updates, eh? Somebody wake up Stephen; where is my Saturday update?

Not impatient or anything :),
Ray

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Currently playing: IGI 2, Raven Shield, Tenchu 3, and Wind Waker.
This comment was edited on Mar 29, 10:56.




Anna. Anna? Anna...is that you? http://www.youtube.com/blacklily8 I love you, mom.

30.

Edit: N/T (double postl)

Mar 29, 2003, 10:53

Ray Marden

Edit: No text; double post.
This comment was edited on Mar 29, 10:55.




Anna. Anna? Anna...is that you? http://www.youtube.com/blacklily8 I love you, mom.

29.

Re: No subject

Mar 28, 2003, 20:00

Quaternion

Looks like a poorly worded bill, by people who don't know what the hell they're talking about, to make IP spoofing illegal. IP Spoofers are the scum of the Internet! Hackers, spammers and cons are pretty much the only people who spoof their IP.

28.

Credit Card Debt Auction

Mar 28, 2003, 17:14

jeremiah

funny auction, but very close to what happens in reality every day. say you have a credit card through citibank. citibank moniters your account balance and makes sure you make your payments on time, but usually they don't "own" your debt... more often then not they've sold it to another company, usually an insurance company of some sorts.

27.

Re: No subject

Mar 28, 2003, 17:10

nin

Ahh but young padawan, a MAC address is easily changed and an IP address is easily spoofed... You still have much to learn about the force

True enough. My point was that if they want to find you bad enough, they will.




RollinThundr Apr 17, 2013, 12:25: Eh really tossing stuff like that in there only to get your panties all bunched up. If you really want to call that trolling sure. Mr. Tact Apr 17, 2013, 12:33: Pretty sure that's the definition of trolling...

26.

Re: No subject

Mar 28, 2003, 16:57

OmegaFoRCe

That's when they track you by IP. Which I believe can also be tracked to the mac address on your NIC... Ahh but young padawan, a MAC address is easily changed and an IP address is easily spoofed... You still have much to learn about the force

25.

F*ck the Police

Mar 28, 2003, 16:09

Bunko

Oh boy, another bill encroaching on the rights of individuals...

Shades of 1984...

[EDIT] On a lighter note, that Dye Pack story is funny as hell.

--------------------------------------------------
Bunko
TI-83+ Graphing Calculator, 64k Memory, 1" Display
Not good for ninja fights.
This comment was edited on Mar 28, 16:13.




There was only one catch and that was Catch-22

24.

Re: No subject

Mar 28, 2003, 14:56

Hazard

Whoever wrote that should really try to keep things within the realm of reality. If I encrypt an email to send to PersonX, the To line can't be encrypted. How on earth does the smtp gateway know where the email is supposed to go if it can't read the To line?

Of course the To-line can be encrypted. The only thing you have to ensure is that the mail server can decrypt it. If you don't use your ISP's mail server and use a secure connection to send your mail your ISP won't know ANYTHING about that email. Not even that it is an email. All the information it would be able to get is that you create a connection to another internet host.

create a classic example of an unenforceable law. If you don't know who the e-mail came from, let alone who it's going to, how can you possibly apprehend the perpetrator of this hideously vile and evil act?

See above. The ISP can see that you exchange hidden data, just not what that data is. From the snippets provided I guess that just creating an encrypted connection would not be illegal under that law, as long as the destination is known.

The interesting thing is that the connection destination could also be hidden using IPSec tunneling. So, would using IPSec be illegal?

If this is for real it is a prime example of politicians passing laws about stuff they don't know anything about. IPSec and encryption/privacy in general are vital for the success of the internet. Otherwise we could say goodbye to online banking, shopping or the secure exchange of business data.

The good thing is that the big corporations also have an interest in keeping secure data exchange legal. So I guess it is safe to say that the lobbyists will prevent any such law from being passed.




Fully automatic backups with Ocster Backup Pro 3 http://www.ocster.com

23.

Re: Texas bill

Mar 28, 2003, 14:46

Tigger

Lets just outlaw technology, it would be easier!

<CrazyNewLaw>

A person commits a crime if:

a) They attempt to import, export, invent or reinvent a wheel

b) Attempt to create, capture, use, or store electricty

</CrazyNewLaw>

--
Tigger

'Got CS...gas?'

This comment was edited on Mar 28, 14:50.




-- Tigger Vic Fontaine for President

22.

Do they even know...

Mar 28, 2003, 14:45

Tigger

Anyone ever wonder if the politicians have any clue about the stuff they are trying to write laws for?

I guess this might make blocking your telephone number from Caller ID illegal, too!

--
Tigger

'Got CS...gas?'




-- Tigger Vic Fontaine for President

21.

No firewall? No problem!

Mar 28, 2003, 14:43

Marduk

Well if you protest it in Texas you could get hauled in and givien the death penalty, so LOL no more problem right? HAIL BUSH!X\| hahaha, CANADA ROCKS!

20.

Re: gg Big Brother

Mar 28, 2003, 13:09

Atomic

Next week on the X-files...




"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." -George Bernard Shaw

19.

gg Big Brother

Mar 28, 2003, 12:14

Weas

http://www.darpa.mil/iao/ The Patriot Act (which they haven't finished by a long shot) + TIA + Globalization = Indentured Servitude to come. Fight the power! http://www.fromthewilderness.com/images/BigSignDay.jpg

18.

I, Clone

Mar 28, 2003, 11:54

Fang

I always wondered about the cloning debate and all the alarm at it. I think that calling it "cloning" is a misnomer. It should be called "twinning" instead. You're not making a carbon copy of yourself, you're making a twin. Someday, when we get transporter technology all straightened out, then we'll have real clones

17.

Re: Freedom To Tinker is Full of It

Mar 28, 2003, 11:21

Anvil

Now at least in the UK the law is interpreted by Judges according to the wording, as understood by the 'common man' and with reference to the intention of the law makers, I'd imagine something similar would apply in the states - which is to say that a judge would likely rule that 'the state legislature did not intend to ban firewall technologies which are in any case protected under <insert moderately relevant act here>'.

Now this doesn't mean that poorly worded laws are A Good Thing (tm) - they are crap and lead directly to miscarriages of justice - but any commentator that states 'Law X outlaws Generic Thing Y' without the backing of court decisions is just talking rubbish. See slashdots passim.

Anvil




Anvil - from the land of warm beer and mad cattle.

16.

No subject

Mar 28, 2003, 11:20

Hump

This paragraph may be unfortunately and poorly worded, but I don't think it changes the intent of the bill

do a search on the abuses of the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act) act by some unscrupulous law enforcement agencies. I'm sure 95% of the time the law is used as it was "intended", its just that other 5%......

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Both the “left” and the “right” pretend they have the answer, but they are mere flippers on the same thalidomide baby, and the truth is that neither side has a clue." - Jim Goad

15.

Re: Freedom To Tinker is Full of It

Mar 28, 2003, 11:08

Blue

This paragraph may be unfortunately and poorly worded, but I don't think it changes the intent of the bill

When bills become laws, it's their wording that is used to interpret them, not their intent. The idea is to make the wording match your intent, so I still see this as a point of concern... I don't think telling a judge that you said "you shouldn't have a problem" is going to get me any slack.




Stephen "Blue" Heaslip Blue's News Publisher, Editor-in-Chief, El Presidente for Life

14.

Dumb, like all of the DMCA

Mar 28, 2003, 10:54

Bagpuss

If these bills were true, and were passed, it would be illegally to buy anything online because your credit card would be encrypted and therefore hidden from the service provider.

- Bagpuss
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13.

Texas bill

Mar 28, 2003, 10:26

Jim

What will they try to abolish next, encrypted passwords?

Maybe we should just cut to the chase and outlaw electricity now so we can live like the 1800s again.




Jim

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