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412 Replies. 21 pages. Viewing page 4.
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352. Re: WOMD? Apr 11, 2003, 12:50 JM
 
I particularly like this quote from the article:

Democracies exist to encourage vibrant debate about the issues that affect all our lives. But the Islamist threat, with legions of fanatics willing to give their lives at any cost to destroy our way of life, is no ordinary debate. It is one in which the naysayers better get on board fast because those who understand Islam's lunatic fringe, and how its sinister designs could co-opt even a sadomasochist like Saddam, cannot indefinitely carry the weight of those who don't, but still want to enjoy the freedoms our brave men and women are fighting, and dying, to protect.

 
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351. WOMD? Apr 11, 2003, 12:03 Ty
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-ijaz041003.asp

Never explain--your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)
 
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
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350. Re: Calling all dipshits.....-Babar, Pedle Apr 10, 2003, 02:01 Huntman
 
Regarding WMD - I say give it more time.

Just as the Bush administration accurately articulated the humanitarian crisis in Iraq (unless you don't believe the stories about the torture chambers - see Newsweek.com if you don't), so too will the weapons of mass destruction come to light.

The military folks just need some time and some help (from the populace) to find the banned materials.

 
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349. Re: Calling all dipshits.....-Babar, Pedle Apr 10, 2003, 01:47 Huntman
 
Hey babar,

Saddam just called. He's looking for a new minister of information and it sounds like you are well qualified.

Better hurry up with the application though as there are others of your political ilk, living in your imaginary, selfish, "what's in it for me?", utopian world, competing for the job.

 
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348. Re: Calling all dipshits.....-Babar, Pedle Apr 9, 2003, 20:28 babar
 
>DO YOU SEE THIS LAST STATEMENT BABAR, YOU FOOL? THEY WERE LIED TOO, JUST LIKE YOUR BEING LIED TOO, ALL THE TIME.

I'm sure they were being lied to, just like we're being lied to all the time. Like I said to you earlier, read both sides of the story and make up your own mind...if you're capable. So far you've shown that you're not.

 
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347. Re: Doesn't this piss you liberals off.....? Apr 9, 2003, 20:24 babar
 
>Doesn't this just piss you off? Iraqi people are happy, all over the world.... and NO THANKS TO YOU! OR YOUR TYPE!!!

Why would this piss me off? And again, this was not the primary reason for illegally invading their country. The primary reason was Saddam supposedly had WOMD. Where are they? Where's the chemical weapons? Where's the nukes? If we never find any then that means Bush and Blair lied to the world and we illegally invaded a country based on those lies.

Besides, I'm sure there's close to a billion Chinese people that would be very happy if we liberated them, too. You support invading China now? How many other countries are we going to illegally invade so we can liberate their citizens now?

Can you even see what kind of bad precedent this sets? If we're free to invade other countries based on lies about them having WOMD and them being a threat to our way of life, what's going to stop N. Korea, or any other country for that matter, from doing the same to us? Remember, to them we are a threat to their way of life...and we have WOMD. And unlike Saddam, we've shown the world that we'll use them for pretty much any reason.

 
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346. Calling all dipshits.....-Babar, Pedle Apr 9, 2003, 19:20 [SPZ]SPANKER
 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-09-arabs-reax_x.htm

Arabs clustered at TV sets in shop windows, coffee shops, kitchens and offices to watch the astounding pictures of U.S. troops overwhelming an Arab capital for the first time ever. Feeling betrayed and misled, some turned off their sets in disgust when jubilant crowds in Baghdad celebrated the arrival of U.S. troops.

"We discovered that all what the (Iraqi) information minister was saying was all lies," said Ali Hassan, a government employee in Cairo. "Now no one believes Al-Jazeera anymore."

DO YOU SEE THIS LAST STATEMENT BABAR, YOU FOOL? THEY WERE LIED TOO, JUST LIKE YOUR BEING LIED TOO, ALL THE TIME. DON'T FOLLOW THE LIBERAL CALLING, IT'S ALL A PACK OF LIES. YOU ARE A WILLING SHEEP BEING LED TO THE SLAUGHTER, YOU STUPID FOOL. READ ON....

Tarek al-Absi, a Yemeni university professor, was hopeful Saddam's end presaged more democracy in the region.

"This is a message for the Arab regimes, and could be the beginning of transformation in the Arab region," al-Absi said. "Without the honest help of the Western nations, the reforms will not take place in these countries."

-SPANKER HAS SPANKETH

P.S. I would be soo embarrassed to be you guys right now. If you were smart you will just go away and never come back to this thread. Go hang out on another thread that talks about your latest fantasy game, because you guys suck at reality. -Babar, Pedle Zeplin.

This comment was edited on Apr 9, 19:29.
 
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345. Doesn't this piss you liberals off.....? Apr 9, 2003, 19:03 [SPZ]SPANKER
 
Even Al Jazeera is admiting defeat, yet you guys still hold on? So who now are the close minded ones? Babar YOU are an ID10T. Doesn't this just piss you off? Iraqi people are happy, all over the world.... and NO THANKS TO YOU! OR YOUR TYPE!!! You now can go suck somewhere else.

http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/article.asp?cu_no=1&item_no=2246&version=1&template_id=277&parent_id=258

The scenes in the Iraqi capital were chaotic. Jubilant Iraqis welcomed advancing US forces in Baghdad while rampaging looters attacked symbols of Saddam Husseinís power.

Residents threw flowers at the armoured column as it swept past, just three kilometres east of the central Jumhuriyya Bridge over the Tigris river. Joy at the apparent removal of Saddam Hussein was tangible, with one man beating a canvas portrait of him with his slipper.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs' Monument, just three km (two miles) east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the river Tigris.

"No more Saddam Hussein," chanted one group, waving to troops as they passed. "We love you, we love you." One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to hand over a heavy belt of ammunition. An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and grinned. Crowds of Shia men beat their chests in the streets.

Other signs of a breakdown were also apparent. Journalists at the Palestine Hotel confirmed that their minders had disappeared.

Al Jazeera with agency inputs






-SPANKER HAS SPANKEND


P.S. your ass must be red from all the SPANKINGS.

 
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344. Re: The means will justify the end...... Apr 9, 2003, 16:23 babar
 
>Israelis don't have suicide bombers..... enough said.

No, it's not enough said. The reason they are suicide bombing Israel is because Israel is forcing them off their land. You have tried to put me down several times because you think I wouldn't defend myself if push came to shove. Why is it wrong for the Palestinians to defend themselves with suicide bombings against a goverment that is trying to remove them from their land? Would you not stand up for yourself if you were in their shoes?

Look...all I have tried to do during our little debating here is to show you that there are other sides to every story. Like someone else pointed out, there's 3 sides...your side, their side and the truth. You only want to listen to, read, and believe 1 side of it. I try pointing out to you the other side in hopes that by hearing both sides you might come to the truth on your own. I see that's never going to happen because you put down all other sources of info as biased/propaghanda. Has it even crossed your mind that the US information you hold so dear might also be biased/propaghanda? Look how many times you posted links that said the US found WOMD only to find out later that the claims were false. You believed each report without question. How many other reports from the US do you believe without question that may turn out to be false?

Think! Use your brain! Come to your own conclusions based on ALL the available information, no matter how much you think it's biased/propaghanda! Because in every truth there is a little bit of BS and in every BS there's a little bit of truth.

Don't just believe everything the US gov/media spoon feeds you. The US has an agenda just like every other country in the world.


This comment was edited on Apr 9, 16:46.
 
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343. Re: The means will justify the end...... Apr 9, 2003, 16:09 [SPZ]SPANKER
 
-Make up your mind. Am I a Peacenik, a Liberal, a Clinton lover, a Saddam lover, or a Socialist?

Answer: You sound like all of them.

Israelis don't have suicide bombers..... enough said. Don't even try to defend the suicide bombers, there is no excuse. YOU don't live there, YOU don't have to deal with a bunch a Palestinian terrorists, loons, everyday of your life. YOU are sitting back in you safe nation, that YOU refuse to support or help. You are pathetic.

P.S. Don't send me anymore links to Arab propaganda. I already pointed out how biased they are. It's truly amazing how gullible you are there propaganda. Let me guess, according to YOUR Iraqi information minister, we aren't in Baghdad and we are losing the war? Why not believe him you ID10T? He must be telling the truth right? DOOOOOHHHHHH!!!!! So stop sending me stupid Arab links. Send something from our own media outlets that are reputable.

 
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342. Re: The means will justify the end...... Apr 9, 2003, 15:05 babar
 
Make up your mind. Am I a Peacenik, a Liberal, a Clinton lover, a Saddam lover, or a Socialist?

Instead of personal attacks you should try discussing the information in the article. Just because it came from Russia doesn't mean it's automatically false info.

You should also try answering the questions I asked you. I've asked several that you've skipped right over.

Start with this one:

>17 blown resolutions is enough. Now the big leader with all his temples and effigies of himself is paying for it.

17 resolutions is enough? Interesting. Israel leads the world in broken resolutions at, I think (don't quote me on this), around 40+. They also have WOMD (nukes). They are killing Palestinians daily (they just killed 7 and wounded 50 yesterday http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/030409/2003040917.html). They killed an American peace protester less than a month ago by driving over her with a bulldozer and then backing over her again just to make sure. And they shot another american peace protester in the face just a few days ago.

Israel seems to fit your conditions for an invasion. Do you support an invasion of Israel?


This comment was edited on Apr 9, 15:19.
 
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341. Re: The means will justify the end...... Apr 9, 2003, 14:51 [SPZ]SPANKER
 
Dude, why did you do that? Don't send me any of your Russian Propaganda look who it was written by: "Timothy BANCROFT-HINCHEY PRAVDA.Ru" The "RU" means it's from Russia.... DUH....dopty doh.... You're an ID10T. and may I add a Socialist. You are a pathetic embarrassment to this country. Move to Russia(if you aren't all ready there). I told everyone here you are a socialist, I didn't think you would send me a link to prove it! You're a joke.

 
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340. Re: Illegal WMD Apr 9, 2003, 14:02 babar
 
Here's some more info about Patriot II. The laws passed with Patriot I were going to expire on Dec. 31, 2005. Patriot II would remove the expiration date making the loss of civil liberties permanent.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/ny-ussena093214085apr09,0,4922176.story?coll=ny-nationworld-headlines

Do these means justify the end? Not according to our founding fathers:

Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

 
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339. Re: The means will justify the end...... Apr 9, 2003, 13:57 babar
 
Liberation wasn't the reason we illegally invaded Iraq. It was because they supposedly had WOMD and wouldn't disarm them. Liberation was secondary and it's not a good enough reason to illegally invade a country. If it was we would be invading almost every country in the world that wasn't like us.

If we don't find WOMD then Bush should at the very least be impeached (http://www.votetoimpeach.org) and possibly tried for War Crimes (http://www.lawyersagainstthewar.org/legalarticles/hinchey.html).

 
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338. The means will justify the end...... Apr 9, 2003, 13:35 [SPZ]SPANKER
 
Torture chambers in Iraq. People went in but never came back out. Where is this in the UN inspections?.... let me answer that for you..... no where, they were only looking for weapons. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/09/sprj.irq.secret.jail.ap/index.html

 
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337. Typical Liberal line of Bulls**t Apr 9, 2003, 13:20 [SPZ]SPANKER
 
-Pedle Zelnip Don't get me wrong I enjoy your conversations over Babar and most my rude comments are out of frustration at what I think is so obvious, you at least come off as intelligent.

Classic point of misinformation: Al Jazeera news never posted any pictures of the statue of Saddam being torn down in the middle of Bagdad. Their headline was "regime falls, much looting" and they had a picture of looters. No where in the web site was there a picture of the Statue being torn down and the Iraqis people celebrating, nor did they show a huge banner being carried by the populace that stated "Human shields go home!" Why is this not shown on Al Jazeera? Because they are biased!(beware what read and where you get you info) They are supported by the neighboring regimes! The neighboring countries(dictators) fear what is going on. They know if the Iraqis people are freed, that their days are numbered, because the people will now be educated and vote for their own leaders. They can decide their future. This is a the Democratic way.

Tears came to my eyes after watching the Iraqis celebrate this morning, and I know many other people feel they way I do. Democratic Liberals have a real problem with this. First of all, because they don't know how to celebrate. They always have to be looking for a problem. We(the USA) are always a problem to them, and we can't be doing anything right. It's also political, they know now that they are a very small minority with their views, and they are alienating the average American. The Democrats are committing Political suicide. I say this from an Independents point of veiw(I'm registered independent) not a Republican.

There is no point in arguing anymore whether going into Iraq was right or wrong, because in this case the ends will justify the means. Japan, South Korea, and France are all testaments to the good will and bold sacrifices of the American people. I am so proud to be an American this day and I know 77% of the population is with me. I just wish you could join us, but alas, you being a die hard liberal and can never understand that meaning, which is a sad thing. Your search for having to find something wrong with America is getting tiring to the average American and could have very detrimental consequences for you(IE Society gets more conservative, like after WW2). You don't seem to understand that this attitude you carry is not for the average American and you ignore this to your peril. Speaking for People in this country(cause you can't), they want something to be proud of, by sending their children over to make the ultimate sacrifice, so that other people can start enjoying the freedoms we have, these are very proud days(something you are incapable of understanding).

Democrats have a lot to lose. The President has shown his resolve to the American people. He does what he says he is going to do. He follows through. He does what he thinks is the right thing to do(not like Bill Clinton, looking at the polls). The last thing the Democrats wanted, was a victory for the Iraqis people. It's all political on your side, because a Republican in office is getting it done. The liberal, looney tune ways of the democrats is over. We are not helpless Americans who need your help. We are proud of what we are doing, and the sacrifices we are making for a more democratic world. History will judge the actions we have made as new dawn begins for the middle east.

-Spanker has Spanketh

This comment was edited on Apr 9, 13:27.
 
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336. Re: Illegal WMD Apr 9, 2003, 12:37 babar
 
>>Did you know under Patriot II I could be thrown in jail without trial for as long as the government wants just for speaking out against Bush. Does that sound like America Land Of The Free to you?


>Really? Where have you heard that? (I mean this geniunely, I would really like to read the article or whatever you got this information from)

Start here: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0313/lee.php

In the middle of that article there's a link titled Patriot II that takes you here: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0310/hentoff.php

Scary stuff.

 
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335. Re: Illegal WMD Apr 9, 2003, 12:35 babar
 
>First of all, it was never the UN's responsibility to "hunt" for the weapons. The UN was there to "confirm" disarmament, with a willing government. Iraq was not a willing government.

It could be arugued that since the UN wasn't able to find any WOMD and the missles that they did find that flew 15 miles too far were immediately destroyed by the Iraqi's that they were being cooperative and they may not actually have WOMD.

>When the UN went to South Africa for disarmament inspections, South Africa proved to them through documentation and cooperation that they had no more weapons of mass destruction. South Africa wasn't playing a cat and mouse game like Iraq.

It's only a cat and mouse game if they actually have WOMD. That hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

>Let me repeat this again(for your thick skull) It is not the UN's charter to disarm Iraq, it was up to Iraq to prove this to the UN, and they failed. Hans Blix is loved by France(sold nuclear reactor and illegal munitions), Germany(built Saddam's bunkers) and Russia(sold jamming equiptment, provided training), because they knew he was going to draw things out.

Ahhh, so Blix, France, Germany and Russia all have alterior motives when it comes to Iraq but there's no possible way the US has them?

>17 blown resolutions is enough. Now the big leader with all his temples and effigies of himself is paying for it.

17 resolutions is enough? Interesting. Israel leads the world in broken resolutions at, I think (don't quote me on this), around 40+. They also have WOMD (nukes). They are killing Palestinians daily. They killed an American peace protester less than a month ago by driving over her with a bulldozer and then backing over her again just to make sure. And they shot another american peace protester in the face just a few days ago.

Israel seems to fit your conditions for an invasion. Do you support an invasion of Israel?

>Why didn't we do this earlier? I totally agree with you, we should have done it long ago, I guess after this comment you have no problem doing this, since your argument is "we should have done this before, why now?".

I've never said "we should have done this before, why now?" I've only asked "Why Iraq? Why now?". Meaning there are a lot of countries with bad people running them, and there's a lot of countries that have WOMD. What's so special about the Iraq situation that makes it stand out above all the other nations and requires an immediate disarmament and regime change?

>Let's not forget one thing here Babar, the Iraqis aren't like us, the reason they(Arab countries) have brutal dictators, is because that's what a lot of them respect. They don't respect peace marchers like you, they really don't. They respect power and force, and that's what they are getting now. We will drag them into the 21st century.

Sorry, but that has to be the lamest thing I've read on this board.

>Remember, it was your hero Bill Clinton that taught us, we are a "world community" now and can't just ignore problems in the world. If we ignore them, who else has the power do do the right thing?

Bill Clinton is not my hero.

We weren't ignoring Iraq, we were dealing with them in a peaceful manner. He wasn't a threat to anybody and there was no need for an invasion. The situation was completely under control.....except of course for the oil.

This comment was edited on Apr 9, 12:41.
 
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334. Re: Illegal WMD Apr 9, 2003, 01:14 Pedle Zelnip
 
First of all, it was never the UN's responsibility to "hunt" for the weapons. The UN was there to "confirm" disarmament, with a willing government.

True.

Let me repeat this again(for your thick skull)

I'm sorry, in what way does babar's "thick skull" contribute to the debate?

Hans Blix is loved by France(sold nuclear reactor and illegal munitions), Germany(built Saddam's bunkers) and Russia(sold jamming equiptment, provided training)

Hmm, that's interesting, can you provide some sources for those claims?

Why didn't we do this earlier?

Well, read the following:

http://merip.org/iraq_backgrounder_102202/iraq_background2_merip.pdf

It seems to imply that previously the US hoped that some of the factions surrounding Iraq would eventually bring about regime change. And certainly that would've been a politically more desirable way for regime change in Iraq to come about, as then you and I wouldn't be having this debate, as the current war probably never would have happened.

we are a "world community" now and can't just ignore problems in the world. If we ignore them, who else has the power do do the right thing?

But what is the "right thing"? Do you mean the morally right thing, or the right thing to preserve the interests of the US? (because the two might not be one and the same) And if we're a "world community", then shouldn't the world make the decisions, not just the strongest part of the world?



PZ
 
PZ
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333. Excellent Site & Article Apr 9, 2003, 00:58 Pedle Zelnip
 
Check out this site, there's some great info there about not only the current state of affairs in the middle east, but background information leading to the situation we have today:

http://www.electroniciraq.net

Also, for those who are interested in a primer on the current situation, check out this article. I think it's an excellent overview of the situation in Iraq:

http://merip.org/iraq_backgrounder_102202/iraq_background2_merip.pdf



PZ
 
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