213 Replies. 11 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 213. |
Re: cdkeys |
Nov 29, 2001, 08:47 |
Remo |
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A closing post, OK. I was politely waiting for that lengthy response but it doesn't seem to be showing up.
"Touché, my ass" - uh, whatever. Actually the comment was spot on and elegantly highlighted the problem this thread is all about. Would you prefer "0wned"? 
Someone earlier used the term "so fucking specific". Who was that again? Obviously the programs ran fine, or they would have had nothing to sell. We're discussing whether copy protection schemes are effective here. If anything, I think you assist in making my point that they're not. And cost money which has to be recovered by sales (roll the load over on legit users).
You may think that a consumer has a responsibility to cover any and all of costs during production and distribution, as well as deal with extra hassle. Well he doesn't; the price can exceed the value. If the company wants his money it will have to improve the product and/or lower the price. *That* is what capitalism is about.
/me thanks for your time.
This comment was edited on Nov 29, 08:54. |
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| 212. |
Not Really a Parting Shot |
Nov 29, 2001, 04:17 |
ewhac |
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I was going to have to bow out of the discussion soon, anyway, as it was starting to consume too much of my time.
As a result of this discussion and my off-line thinking about it, I managed to see inconsistencies in my beliefs. While I still firmly believe that copying isn't a big deal, I need to fine-tune the logical and ethical framework I've developed to justify that belief.
This is why I dive into discussions like this, to test my beliefs against other minds, and hopefully have things pointed out to me I didn't see before. To that end, I'd like to especially thank Vergs and Zarathud for keeping me on my toes and forcing me to think things through more completely, bringing me closer to the solution I'm seeking. As did the U.S. Constitution, a lasting social contract embracing copying and artists' wishes will come from vigorous discussions such as this.
Incidentally, I earlier claimed that courts are careful distinguish between copyright infringement and theft. I am compelled to retract this statement; I have not yet been able to locate a supporting reference. (Not that I'll stop looking.)
Thanks,
Schwab
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| 211. |
Re: oro? |
Nov 29, 2001, 01:01 |
anon@209.179 |
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Well, according to "The Man" it's apparently not "popular" any more ... Sad, that.
Good stuff here, on both sides of the discussion. |
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| 210. |
oro? |
Nov 28, 2001, 15:18 |
anon@217.70 |
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| 209. |
Copyright |
Nov 27, 2001, 21:47 |
anon@205.158 |
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Unfortunately, nothing about the copyright issues discussed here is as black and white as either the "pro" or "anti" camps would prefer. While piracy in general is bad and should be discouraged, the copyright law is also widely abused.
For example, in most cases the "artist" doesn't hold the copyrights to his own works. Especially in the music industry; none of the record companies will sign a contract unless the artist gives up his rights to the music he makes. This is how you get records selling 200,000 units while the band gets, uh, $3000 or so. And since the music doesn't belong to the band anymore, don't even think they could re-release their CD independently or on a different label, or on the Internet. They can't even do this with *new* music if it's in any way based on the stuff they made for the Big Record Company inc.
In the game industry, some developers (big, rich ones like id) are in a better situation, but most aren't. Generally the publishers own the copyrights and are free to screw the developer all they want. Often small developers are allowed to fold right after shipping the game, so the publisher saves all the money that would've gone to the royalties. Looking Glass was perhaps the most visible example of this... Any money Thief2 made went directly to EIDOS thanks to the very convenient collapse of LGS caused by, well, EIDOS pulling out of a deal that was supposed to save the company. Oh, did I mention this also gave them the Thief franchise essentially for free? Now many of the Thief2 people are working on Thief3, with the only difference being that they won't get any royalties from the previous game's sales...
Didn't something like this just happen to the Tribes2 team as well? Sierra owns the lisence, so they can save money by firing everybody that would otherwise have made money off the game. How about Rogue? Do you think American McGee's Alice team made a single penny in royalties? The sad truth is that the people who actually make the games, music or any other commercial art are *not* the copyright holders. Only the corporations are, and being corporations they don't care what happens to the artist as long as the company makes money. In fact it only makes sense to them to minimize the artist's profit as long as it increases their own success. |
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| 208. |
Re: Copying versus Theft |
Nov 27, 2001, 17:43 |
Cyrezar |
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No, I think I'm asking the right question, and it still stands. But since you are asking - NO, everyone does NOT do it. And given that we live in a democracy, and in this democracy we have laws that try to prevent that sort of thing I'd say no, everyone should not be allowed to do it.
We dont live in a democracy, we live in a democratic republic.
edit..quotes
This comment was edited on Nov 27, 17:44. |
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| 207. |
Re: cdkeys |
Nov 27, 2001, 17:17 |
anon@129.176 |
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| Yep, I think this is the longest thread since WTC. There's no way it's gonna get anywhere near, what 700+ posts? Pray that nothing that controversial comes up for quite a while. |
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| 206. |
Re: cdkeys |
Nov 27, 2001, 16:43 |
anon@24.22 |
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| man this is a long thread. i wonder how manu more replies there will be. |
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| 205. |
Re: cdkeys |
Nov 27, 2001, 14:46 |
Vergs |
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#182: "Companies were resorting to physically mutilating the disc and writing code to detect the mutilations in an effort to protect their software...
So you're saying the vendors were intentionally releasing defective merchandise? Where's the ethics in that?"
Touché
Touché, my ass (no pun intended). Was saving this for my lengthier, long winded response that I'll draft when I get home, but since it's been picked up on...
Companies were using a technique to burn holes in specific locations on the 3.5" diskette so that when the program was run, it would look for an error when trying to scan that sector. The programs themselves ran fine. This was a copy protection technqiue that was thought to be unbreakable. Unfortunately for the companies, the 3l33t h4x0rs simply patched out the code that sought out the disk deformaties. In other words, the merchandise was not defective, but the companies had to go to great lengths just to protect their software, great lengths that were still not enough.
--Vergs
http://www.bfd-tfc.com
This comment was edited on Nov 27, 18:31. |
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| 204. |
Re: I thought this thread was about RtCW ?? |
Nov 27, 2001, 14:06 |
354at9804 |
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| 203. |
This thread.... |
Nov 27, 2001, 12:01 |
anon@194.128 |
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| I'd like to add my 2 cents ... blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, god this thread is borrrrrriiinngg, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, |
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| 202. |
Re: Copying versus Theft |
Nov 27, 2001, 11:54 |
anon@65.114 |
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"fact is, is if they did they wouldn't get coverage, if they did get coverage, it'd be as criminals and not a citizens exercising their right to protest."
you're going to tell me that if even a small percentage of those 50 million Napster users got together and protested in public it wouldn't make the news? i thought the whole napster legal issue got quite a bit of coverage in the press, a lot of folks who never used it have at least heard about it. and if people felt so strongly about their 'right' to use napster, i think they'd be willing to stand up for it - not through riots in the street, but by working through the legal system. again, i seriously doubt most folks felt that strongly - sure, they were pissed because they couldn't get free stuff easily anymore. but did they feel the kind of moral conviction that would prompt them to take action? no. i think most folks saw it as a loophole in the system getting closed, so they just moved on to the next bit of sharing software that hadn't come under legal scrutiny.
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| 201. |
cdkeys |
Nov 27, 2001, 11:50 |
Remo |
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You people who curse and get all worked up need to calm down. I think we have established that piracy is bad by now.
#182: "Companies were resorting to physically mutilating the disc and writing code to detect the mutilations in an effort to protect their software...
So you're saying the vendors were intentionally releasing defective merchandise? Where's the ethics in that?"
Touché.
"cd-keys are a small price to pay."
For what? Pirates can evidently use a keygen to play online, while I as the legitimate user get to pay for the company's cdkey system, deal with auth server downtime, run the risk of getting banned etc. Sorry but I don't agree with you. Companies who offer a restricted or incomplete product scare customers like me away. I don't buy it, I don't warez it, I don't use it. I forget about it. That means no revenue, I don't care how many f***ing hours they worked on it.
#163: "As it is, I only pay for games which I really like. Other games which aren't so good, I only have on my computer for LAN parties, and play it because that's what everyone else is playing."
Are you serious? That's got to be the lamest excuse ever for not paying for your stuff.
This comment was edited on Nov 27, 11:55. |
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| 200. |
I thought this thread was about RtCW ?? |
Nov 27, 2001, 11:33 |
anon@194.128 |
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"find a tangent, pick it up, all day long you'll have good luck" |
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| 199. |
Re: Copying versus Theft |
Nov 27, 2001, 11:27 |
anon@212.74 |
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| "how many actually took up the cause and fought to keep Napster unchanged" - fact is, is if they did they wouldn't get coverage, if they did get coverage, it'd be as criminals and not a citizens exercising their right to protest. |
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| 198. |
Re: Copying versus Theft |
Nov 27, 2001, 10:54 |
anon@65.114 |
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"Oh, yeah, all those people who use Napster WANTED it closed down."
My point was - of all those folks using Napster, how many actually took up the cause and fought to keep Napster unchanged? Actually tried to participate in the 'democratic' process by getting laws changed, etc. Probably not many. I don't recall hearing about any 'Pro Napster' rallies at the steps of the White House. The only reason people used it was because they could get stuff for free with little or no effort. As soon as that started to change they bailed. I'm not trying to say that people are evil for dnlding hacked games or music, I'm saying that just because a lot of people do something doesn't make it right. |
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| 197. |
Re: 195 |
Nov 27, 2001, 10:40 |
anon@194.128 |
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"gnutella and shit"
I've heard of Gnutella and have a good idea how it works ? But I haven't heard of the 'shit' client ? How do I download a client for it and more importantly where does it download my files too ? Or do I need another program called 'ass' ??
Come one ppl lighten up ffs, everyone is entitled to their own opinion right or wrong, let's face it, us superior types *know* that they will all burn in hell for eternity |
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| 196. |
Re: Copying versus Theft |
Nov 27, 2001, 10:38 |
anon@212.74 |
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| "Apparently they haven't" - Apparently? How apparently? Oh, yeah, all those people who use Napster WANTED it closed down. Sorry. Must have got that wrong....? - "Don't forget gnutella and shit" - Ah! I never forget shit! |
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| 195. |
195 |
Nov 27, 2001, 10:35 |
354at9804 |
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Don't forget gnutella and shit
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| 194. |
Re: Copying versus Theft |
Nov 27, 2001, 10:32 |
anon@65.114 |
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"And I'm sure that 50 million Napster users might vote differently to you!"
Apparently they haven't - and isn't that what democracy is all about? |
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213 Replies. 11 pages. Viewing page 1.
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