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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

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654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 8.
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514. Re: Islamic People Sep 13, 2001, 20:18 Ewigekraft23
 
Re: 504

I could not have said it better myself. I said much earlier in message #281 that this must not become a witch hunt. As a country, rather a world, we should not stereotype Arabs or those of the Islamic faith based upon these few radicals. There are radical christians, radical jews, and radical republicans. Although I may not be, as the person who posted #504 was not, a Christian, I think that many readers here are. Do you consider yourself to have the same views as the most radical christians you can think of?

In any situation of life a small group cannot be used to represent a whole.
 
--Ewigekraft23
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513. Why this is and who we think we are (2) Sep 13, 2001, 20:02 anon@172.168
 
. My comments were judgemental and generalizing and were specifically engineered to push emotional buttons and ask why people as a crowd are the way they are. I know I put myself on a pedastal and I hope "for the sake of future generations" that everyone who has time to read that post stones me off my pillar. We all need such a wake-up call. It is the ego that makes us "those evil lazy Americans". I hope I have not at all appeared stupid ("dull minded"- yeah, I know you already know what that means, but I don't want to be thought of as the brat throwing my words around) in this arguement. I want to try to see the whole arguement. I want to see why "evil" does "evil". I want to see why "good" stands up to judge them so quickly.

. Thank you so very much for your comments. I'm not smiling, but at the same time I feel better that my ranting has had its desired affect in awakening the Socrates in all of us and seriously forced us to ask "why" while at the same time getting the intellectuals to come out of their caves and make themselves known. There was no substance at all to that post. Every cliche'd phrase was meant to whip everyone who read it into a frenzied mob so that I could get very clear feedback on what everyone thinks about this incident, wedging everyone who e-mailed me into one of many extremes. I'm not sheltered. Of course Americans aren't so bent on materialism that they can't ocassionally look into themselves and pay homage to a higher conciousness. Not everyone is like that. That's the ugly end of the moral bell-curve. No, not everyone is so hardcore materialistic they can't bear the thought of socializing with people who don't own a car less than three years old.

. But while walking to work on the very day of the attack I witnessed two public beatings of Middle Eastern individuals (one about to be broken up by the police), and a crowd being given armed escort walking away from the local university far far from their respective building. I asked what was going on. One of the armed gentlemen blew me off while one the people being escorted said multiple bomb threats had been called-in to the Middle Eastern Studies program at our university. And the fist fight at the gas station I mentioned? Saw that too. It was only a one and a half mile walk to work. Don't you find it ironic that that the rednecks who run around beating up homosexuals in the streets turn out to be the biggest faggots of them all? Yet at the same time these people vote, and right now their voices are the loudest, screaming to send "them" all back to "sandy nigger-land". Don't even smile. I'm not.

. I don't want to romanticize death and dying, there's nothing funny about either to an atheist like myself. 'Cause in the end- we only get one shot, whether it be a shot at life or my shot to the stomach. I'm not asking for a medal or the Pulitzer- that was just part of the engineering in the post.

. Thank you all for your time, may they be brought to justice and in a court of law. Maybe the American way isn't so bad after all ne~? Thanks to the hundreds who responded both on this board and to my e-mail personally. Sure there were a few death threats; the way I wrote the post I expected that. I'm just proud of all those who said:

"Hey, not so fast, decent human beings walk the Earth, not quite so many as there were a few days ago but still- I'm one of them"

. Thank you all. I am proud to be an American where we have such freedom, and I'll take another bullet or three to keep that.

-Zombi Z
 
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512. Eradication... Sep 13, 2001, 19:44 anon@134.197
 
... of a country is not the way.

If we really feel threatened, we need to go after only those responsible, and not civilians, or entire countries.

Sure, we can destroy Afghanistan, but we know the real problem there is Bin Laden himself, and the Taliban.

We have to strike a balance when it comes to protecting our interests, and the interests of others. Our interests can be viewed as morally superior to those of terrorists, but we should never view them as morally superior to the interests of people who are not terrorists, but might not be our best friends in the world.

"Might makes right" is not the type of philosophy a civilized nation needs to live by in order to protect its interests. We cannot, and should not expect the rest of the world to conform to us because we can beat them into submission.

We need to control people who are a danger to Earth's societies, but we have to be careful in order not to permanently disturb a group of people just because their way of life is different than ours.

Abusing people and trying to convert them to "our way" is not the right way of going about things. By doing that, we lose entire perspectives on the world and supplant them with our own.

Just because we're not going to get immediate repayment for our charitable efforts, doesn't mean the efforts are not worth it.

It's a matter of nationalism. Nationalism can be a terrible thing. We put barriers between ourselves simply because of our geographical origin.

Invincibility can be terror.
 
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511. Suidide Bombers... Sep 13, 2001, 18:40 anon@24.30
 
I feel suicide bombers will from now on be a death knell to whatever cause they support. No one has seen coordinated suicide attacks or this nature since the Kamikazi's in WWII. I know there is a vast difference there, but the similarity remains. While this is not justification by any means, one of the driving reasons that it was decided to attack Japan with nuclear force in WWII was the fear of confronting a populus that was perceived as willing to die before surrender. If an organization is perceved to be willing to die before surrender in this day and age, the response will most likely not be nuclear. The mission objective will change, however, from trying to remove the threat the group posed to trying to remove every last person involved from the face of the earth. I have great sympathy for the Palistinians and think the U.S. has behaved deplorably in selling arms to a country while at the same time saying publicly that they are condeming what those arms are used for. I only hope they will realise that further use of suicide bombers, espicaly if they decide to copy the model of simultanious attacks, will doom the Palistinian people to never have a homeland. The only way the models of attack expressed by these extremest groups will work is if they defeat the entire western world. This obviously will not happen anytime soon regardless of how many planes hit buildings. I can't say I have the answer, but I can see what will lead to certian failure.

Well, thats my rant, I'll shut up now. Flame away.
 
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510. Re: To set a Precident Sep 13, 2001, 17:40 Poohbear
 
Higher road?

Do you honestly believe that "taking the higher road" will do anything but weaken our position of power in world politics? Will it change the feelings of our enemies towards us? Will is stop them from attacking our citizens without remorse?

They have enough evidence at this point to show bin Laden being at least somewhat responsible. There is also some showing that both Egypt and the United Arab Emerites were involved. A group hug is not going to help anyone at this point. If you believe that, I have a .com startup you can invest in, and some swampland in Florida.

President Bush needs to tell the Taliban that bin Laden will be turned over to US officials within 24 hours, or there will be severe and far reaching repercussions for Afghanistan. It's that simple. They are haboring him, and they need to realize their mistake.

I am sure that if you had friends or relatives that were victims of this attack you would not be talking about "ending the violence for the sake of humanity."

The animals that did this, and continue to plot and plan such tragedies will not be changed by that, and will seize upon it as a victory for them. Repercussions need to be so vicious that no one will ever consider terrorism again, especially against the United States.

"I say to our enemies: We are coming," said Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona.
"God may have mercy on you, but we won't." - CNN.com

President Bush should have no qualms about turning any country that would harbor these individuals into the largest piece of glass on the planet. Read Heinlein and you'll understand.

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

 
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509. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 17:36 anon@166.65
 
I would agree that America is under-praised for its contribution to the modern world. Speaking as a New Zealander I cannot help but be saddened and horrified at such a terrible act against this great nation. However I would disagree that nobody helps America when it is in trouble. NZ doesn't have much to offer America in terms of help but we have sent medical and search and rescue assistance to the Gulf and fire fighters to the huge fires they had a few years ago not to mention Vietnam, Korea WWI and WWII ETC.
We do what we can with what we have. Perhaps the because America is so big, you have the impression that no one helps them, or maybe no other country can provide the magnitude of assistance that America requires in time of crisis. Also, when was the last time America &#8220;asked&#8221; for assistance and was denied by a NATO ally. Just the other day they invoked article 5. This means were in this together. If you ask for help you get it, if America goes to war we&#8217;ll be there, count on it!!!!:)
 
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508. Black box found... Sep 13, 2001, 17:21 Ray Marden
 
...for flight 93.

Reporting this per CNN, per AP wire,
Ray

------------------------------------
I choose you, Pikachu!!!!!!111
 
Avatar 2647
 
Everything is awesome!!!
http://shoutengine.com/GarnettonGames/
I love you, mom.
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507. Security Measures Sep 13, 2001, 17:16 anon@207.215
 
Many of you have already said that the reasons these terrorist acts were so easily executed were the many flaws and lack of security within the American flight transportation system. I've thought of several measures which might possibly help from these acts from being reiterated again:

1) Make the door/wall separting the pilots cabin from the passenger cabin more secure - meaning locked, made of sturdy metal, etc. If this is inpenetrable, the pilots would have never been killed and the planes would have never been in the wrong hands for an even more devastating atrocity. Maybe a bulletproof window on this separator will also help, allowing pilots to see what, if anything, is going on behind them. A pilot leaving his cabin not only endangers everybody onboard, but allows hijackers to take control of the plane and wreak more havoc.
2) Post armed security guards aboard the plane. I believe it is ridiculous to see how there is no form of security besides the few flight attendants aboard the plane. I do not understand why our flight system makes it so tempting for anybody, even with a plastic knife, to be able to take over a plane by threatening the lives of all passengers.

These points might seem somewhat overwhelming for our current system, since it will need additional employees and maintenance for many planes. Whatever they may be, I bet the costs for these will never surpass the costs WTC atrocity.
 
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506. DO NOT HARASS INNOCENT PEOPLE Sep 13, 2001, 16:14 anon@207.75
 
It's not suprise to most that the USA has it's share of fanatics. We still have ignorant fools lining up to put on white hoods. That is the price of living in the most diverse nation on earth. We, the rational minded citizens of the USA, need to protect our brothers and sisters of middle-eastern decent from the racist fools that will take advantage of this incident to apease the extra testosterone in their systems. I am a white male, and I will personaly defend with my life anyone of any decent or sex or religion who is being targeted by these fools that are no better than the fools elsewhere in the world. Take example from the heros that diverted the fourth plane.

One world - One people.
 
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505. Re: Regarding the post Sep 13, 2001, 16:12 anon@216.217
 
Whoops, when I said "these guys definitely are crazy" I was referring to bin Laden's organisation... damnit. I'll stop now.  
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504. Islamic People Sep 13, 2001, 16:11 Tony Z
 
I feel sorry for all islamic people right now. Because of the actions of a few twisted individuals, not only have they gotten a bad reputation, their entire religion has been defamed.

I know this argument is all over the news now, but I'd just like to restate it here lest some forget. Islam is a religion similar in its rules to Judaism or christianity, one of the main tenants is the strict law against the harming or murder of others, regardless of their belief, status, or actions towards you. Personally, I'm an athiest, but I agree with the reasoning behind most religions, which is to further humanity by promoting understanding an kindness amongst all people no matter what.

This attack was not an "arab" thing or an "islamic" thing, it was an attack by a small group of very sick people, end of blame. No war can stop a group like this without resulting in an unacceptably large loss of human life. This is a very difficult situation, as the US cannot just "turn the other cheek", much as it would be nice to, because that will not be understood by those that communicate via violence.

I do not profess to have the widom to know what the US government should do, I can only hope that it proves itself in this situation to validate all our votes (even if the majority of people didn't vote for our current head of state), and proceeds in a fashion that both prevents this from happening again, and prevents other worse consequences (such as loss of our freedom or values) from happening.

What we as the public must do know, is to calm our anger, rebuild and support our country, and "pray" (using the term figuratively as an athiest) that our leaders act wisely.

--------------
Tony Zahn
Sofware Engineer, Achievement Technologies Inc.
Go Blue!
 
--------------
Go Blue!
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503. Re: Regarding the post Sep 13, 2001, 16:03 anon@130.85
 
I don't think that a sweeping generalization of all Arabs being "crazy" is a fair statement, no race is made up entirely of lunatics. I know Arabs here in the US who are as sorrowful, as sickened, and as saddened by what has happened as the rest of us. In fact, a statement like that, in a time like this, could be dangerous as it might be used as justification for those people who are taking revenge on Muslims (or Arabs) here in the US.

One other thing, now that this discussion has gone beyond 500 posts, is this the longest thread BluesNews has hosted? Just curious, and my apologies if that question is out of line considering the sensitivity of the current discussion.
 
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502. Re: A rational call for carpet bombing. Sep 13, 2001, 16:00 anon@64.154
 
You are absolutely right. " ...saying i don't care why you are upset but you hurt me so i'll slap you is equally unsustainable. It *does* matter why people are upset." Whoever did this had their reasons, and that can't be disputed.

Other posts have commented that America should make no move to actively wage a war against our enemies, "that we should maintain the moral high ground". In my opinion, that is exactly what will cause America to be destroyed in a nuclear firestorm. The best defense is a good offense. It's an old cliche, but it is accurate to the nth degree. The Roman Empire lasted for over a thousand years because they had the strongest army in the world, and they weren't afraid to use. The moral structures of the world have changed considerably since then, and it is generally unacceptable for one nation to invade another with the idea of conquest. Self defense is not conquest. Pre-emptive self defense is not conquest. Pre-emptive self defense is exactly that: defending ourselves against a threat before they have any more opportunities to harm us.

As I said before, I don't know who is in the Right here. I think perhaps that America does need to reevaluate our foreign policies regarding the mideast. But that need now lies secondary to a need to defend ourselves. And that defense can ONLY come through a strong offense. By hunting our enemies down and killing them. We can't simply say "Look, we stopped doing what you don't like, don't bomb us anymore please." It does NOT work that way. First, they won't stop until they're dead. They've already shown us that. Second, see the first point. I can't stress it enough. Beating up someone at school because you *think* he might be a bully isn't the right thing to do. Beating up someone that has killed countless thousands of our mothers, brothers, fathers, sisters, children, and friends is the ONLY thing left for us to do.

Maybe we brought this on ourselves. But whatever retaliation is made is equally warranted. "Proportional response"? It is an ideal that is simply not practical. Say you poke my eye out because you don't like the way I look, or the way I talk, or my opinions on anything. Should I poke your eye out? No. I should kill you. Why? Because by your actions you have indicated that you are willing to do great damage to people, and are a danger to myself and others. Call me any name you want and disagree to your hearts content. Perhaps I'll stop and think about what caused you to say it. If I don't change my behaviour, after consistant requests, perhaps the only step left is for you to poke my eye out. So be it. But if you attack me, I am going to defend myself. It's not a matter of who's right anymore. It's a matter of survival. If you're using a knife, I am going to use my gun. If you're using a gun, I am going to use my gun first. If you're using car bombs and hijacked airplanes, take a wild guess what I'm going to use.

This could very well be the end of America. But we won't walk quietly into the hereafter, and you can be damned sure we won't go alone.
 
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501. Regarding the post "things" Sep 13, 2001, 15:37 anon@216.217
 
I made that post thinking about Arabs in general, not necessarily bin Laden...because these guys definitely ARE crazy. I'll admit that after learning more about him my post looks a bit silly, as I didn't know myself what the hell his agenda was -- for your information here's some interesting CIA documents on him:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/binladen/binladen.shtml

Apparently the guy wants to create some sort of dominion over all the Muslim countries. The scary thing about that is that Pakistan has nukes, and bin Laden is apparently cozy with Pakistan...

However, according to reports this guy's organisation has around 400 people. That's more of a cult than a political entity. Fanaticism is not unique to Arabs either.

In this sense I think the general ill will towards the US in the middle east should not be equated with the mad ego of this particular bastard, with whom reasoning seems absurd.
 
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500. Re: To set a Precident Sep 13, 2001, 15:28 anon@208.28
 
...and we can all live happily ever after...with our dictionary in one hand and our TV remote in the other, and we'll look outside and see the cute little bunny rabbits running through the green grass on a breezy summer afternoon.

Fool. These people can't be cured. They can't be reasoned with. They can't be tolerated. They will continue to use the freedoms that the U.S. and so much of the rest of the civilized world hold dear to spread their dark, twisted hatred until we eradicate them. That means violence. Sorry to burst your bubble. Let us all hope and pray that America and freedom-loving nations and peoples throughout the world have the will and the stomach for what this will take.
 
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499. Re: A rational call for carpet bombing. Sep 13, 2001, 15:09 Anvil
 
I disagree with this well thought out post.

As I see it the argument advanced is

1. 'enemies' have declared war on us by this act.
2. Our appropriate response to that is to obliterate them.

and perhaps also

1. I don't know why people hate us so much but
2. that doesn't matter.

War is defensible IMO if and only if it is a 'just' war. that is to say it meets the various criteria below

having just cause,
being declared by a proper authority,
possessing right intention,
having a reasonable chance of success,
and the end being proportional to the means used

I have little doubt that the first 3 criteria are met in this case. Consider the last two though

reasonable chance of success. over the past 20 years or so America and its allies have tried to eliminate bin laden (by cruise bombing afghanistan), saddam hussein and the libyan regime. on all counts they have failed. I would expect them to fail again. the best that could be expected short of massive and extreme force would be significant but temporary damage to these nations and organisations. in the case of afghanistan the soviet union also applied all its military might to the country, and lost.

ends proportional to the means. eliminating terrorist cells by largely destroying whole countries (and that is what it would take) is not a proportional response. Russia has behaved badly in chechnya under similar circumstances (and of course with reduced capability). It does not behove a state that prides freedom and democracy to behave in such a manner.

I hope it is a matter of common sense that saying i don't care why you are upset but you hurt me so i'll slap you is equally unsustainable. It *does* matter why people are upset. it matters in Ireland, and equally matters in the mid east and indeed within our own nations.

Anvil


 
Anvil - from the land of warm beer and mad cattle.
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498. Re: Some anti-bin Laden images... Sep 13, 2001, 14:27 anon@209.246
 
It's your board, but the images are not disrespectful to anything that has happened.

Might be disrespectful to the bad guys, but not to America.
 
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497. Re: Some anti-bin Laden images... Sep 13, 2001, 14:22  Blue 
 
This is a discussion forum. Express your opinions, be controversial if you like, but I don't want things degenerating to the point where satirical image links are posted here. It's disrespectful to how serious a matter this all is.

Stephen "Blue" Heaslip
Blue's News Publisher, Editor-in-Chief, Il Presidente for Life
 
Avatar 2
 
Stephen "Blue" Heaslip
Blue's News Publisher, Editor-in-Chief, El Presidente for Life
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496. Re: Some anti-bin Laden images... Sep 13, 2001, 13:33 anon@204.149
 
* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Sep 13, 14:15.
 
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495. To the World... Sep 13, 2001, 13:00 anon@207.75
 
As an American I just wanted to thank all nationalities that have come out so quickly in full support of the U.S. and the initiatives to remove this threat to us all. I am one of the biggest peace loving hippies over here. I have long hair, have been known to listen to the Grateful Dead, and haven't eaten meat or swatted a fly in 9 years. (literally) I support military action to preemptively help 'nudge' some of the more, reluctant, countries into a stance against terrorism if they refuse to do so on their own accord. If I, the supposedly weakest stomach in a land some have called weak hearted support this, I fear the wrath of the majority. I can't say for certian that all actions seen in the future will be rational or just, but I hope rationality prevails even in the midst of attack.

It may be a good time for some of you in areas that need not be mentioned to resign from your posts as a radar
operaters.
 
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