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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

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654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 5.
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574. This thread.... Sep 15, 2001, 09:12 anon@62.30
 
.... has run out of steam, people are arguing semantics and politics and not serving any constructive use as it was a couple of days ago - in fact it seems to be degrading in use in every new post. Isn't it time it was closed Blue ?

My heart and thoughts are with those affected by these outrageous attacks on the US - don't forget how many innocents died and lets honor them.

These bastards will be brought to justice one way or another this isn't the place for an arguement to as how.

Peace.
 
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573. Re: Don't Tread On Me Sep 15, 2001, 07:47 anon@12.154
 
To #572:

"The truth is a beautiful thing. We are a proud nation. We (our gov't) have done things that I am not proud of. (Who the hell voted for that Clinton idiot?) But what nation has not done things that are questionable?"

Who voted for that Clinton idiot? I did. So did the majority of what you list as a proud nation. Twice.

I guess I don't understand why you began your call-for-unity post with a statement that immediately alienated a majority of Americans.

Clinton was no better or worse than the nation you describe: a well-intentioned visionary who did a lot of things none of us are proud of.
 
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572. Don't Tread On Me Sep 15, 2001, 03:42 anon@208.178
 
http://www.cfrb.com/archives/american.html

The truth is a beautiful thing. We are a proud nation. We (our gov't) have done things that I am not proud of. (Who the hell voted for that Clinton idiot?) But what nation has not done things that are questionable?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

All the idiots that have posted anti-American comments within this thread show us all how ignorant people can be.
And the Americans posting the same stupid type of comments about others, you are no better.

Racism, bigotry, hate... all these things are born of ignorance. All these things are taught. Open your mind, free your heart, question your emotions.

Speak out, speak up... when you see these threads of ignorance in your neighbor, in your friend, and in yourself. If we can break the chain we can all live in peace.

But make no mistake... we can not over look these acts. When your life and way of life is threatened you can not be a pacifist. You must take action. And we will. We will not change our lives. We are hurt and live with sorrow after these murderous acts but we will grow stronger from them. We are united today more than ever. And we will have our vengeance.

Hopefully when all debts are paid we will have peace. And these religious zealots will realize nothing they can do will change us as Americans. And democracy will reign supreme.

On a final note I thought it was so very ironic. These highly religious Muslim Extremists spent a good bit of time in strip clubs drinking alcohol while in flight school down in Florida. An act which would have meant execution in Saudi Arabia. Why is it the religious Extremists are also the most hypocritical of the lot?
 
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571. Re: Wake up people! Sep 15, 2001, 03:06 anon@134.197
 
"My source for this was a report from the World News International Channel where they interviewed a man who was very close to a former Arabian terrorist (I forget who) who was put on trial and supposedly brought to justice."

Your source was correct, but I gather you did not know this earlier and needed to hear it from a news report after a catastrophe such as this?

So now we have someone ignorant who up until now lived in a cave who wants to have a say in how we go about dealing with this very critical situation?

"Finally, I am going to say something that will probably infuriate a lot of people, but I firmly believe this:
If you are an American citizen, and do not support going to war, you are not a patriot of this nation."

Beware of too much patriotism. It'll simply close your mind for no other reason than "I was born in this country."

I'd rather think of myself as a citizen of the world. I like to enjoy everything the world has to offer, and not limit my pride to America's accomplishments. I don't value people of any nationality over any other. And neither should anyone else.
 
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570. Wake up people! Sep 15, 2001, 02:41 anon@141.155
 
I am getting really sick and tired of all the bleeding-heart liberals in America who don't support going to war and who think that by simply walking up to Bin Laden's door(if it's him, we're not sure yet) or the door of whoever, and arresting them and putting them on trial is going to solve the problem.

WAKE UP!!!!

(Assuming it is Bin Laden)These people HATE us! They are willing to die to harm us, and they don't give a rats ass about who they kill, hurt or maim in the process. Not very different from Hitler, they are willing to run over anybody in their way to achieve their ideals. They HATE our way of life and they want to destroy it.

And the reason why? Because they consider our presence in the Middle East an afront to their religion. They despised our efforts to protect the sovreignty of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and our continued peace keeping efforts afterwards. They despise our dealings with a "weak and corrupt" Saudi government. That's it. Nothing more. My source for this was a report from the World News International Channel where they interviewed a man who was very close to a former Arabian terrorist (I forget who) who was put on trial and supposedly brought to justice.

We must go to war against terrorism. It may not be the kind of war waged in WWII or in Vietnam, but it will be a war nonetheless. If the people responsible are simply put on trial, it just leaves the door open for someone else to take control. The network is vast, and taking down one person isn't going to cut it.

It occurs to me that some people may not realize the full extent of this. If you haven't seen them up close, you cannot fully appreciate the gradeur of the Pentagon or the enormity and stature of the Twin Towers. For those who don't support an open declaration of war, I advise you to look again at the horrific images of the planes hitting the buildings, and for just a moment, try to considering the magnitude of those events. I also want to remind you that it is naive to think that this was all that the terrorists had in mind, and that for your sake, I hope and pray nothing like this ever happens close to your home and that you don't have to witness such tragedy and loss first hand.

Finally, I am going to say something that will probably infuriate a lot of people, but I firmly believe this:
If you are an American citizen, and do not support going to war, you are not a patriot of this nation.

America will prevail whatever happens, and may whatever god you believe in watch over and protect you.
 
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569. Re: read the whole thing and understand Sep 15, 2001, 01:40 anon@66.74
 
"""Thw hole Pearl Habour comparison is ludicrous."""

You're right, it is ludicrous. Pearl Harbor doesn't measure up to the attack on the military headquarters of the US and the murder of 5000 American civilians.

"""surely we need some perspective in this time of crisis."""

Go volunteer for the next 2 months sifting through the rubble for body parts for perspective.

 
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568. Re: read the whole thing and understand Sep 15, 2001, 00:29 anon@134.197
 
"We need to walk a very high, tenuous tightrope between bringing a definitive end (i.e., total eradication) to forces of actual -- not conceptual -- evil in this world, and preserving our own fundamental freedoms. This crossing is where we will most need God's help."

"Eradication" and "God" (in the true Christian spirit) are 2 words which oppose each other.

Christianity does not advocate the destruction of evil by violent methods. The fight against evil is intended to be personal. It is best fought by turning away from evil and doing good, but never doing evil. A wrong cannot be used to right a previous wrong.

Things like wars pose a pretty big theological problem. There is obviously a level that can be reached where one can help defend against a truly evil enemy (as was the case in World War 2) in a defensive way. However, even in the most threatening of wars, the virtue of loving one's enemy is applicable.

I think that if people are in danger of being killed, it is okay to step in and stop the enemy from bringing down the blows, but it should be done for the sake of others you love. And if you are a truly good person, you will condemn yourself for your actions, even if you realize there would not have been an alternative without loss of life. It must not be done out of hatred. God judges justly, and I'm sure He will understand if you felt you had no other alternative (we're really talking extreme situations here) AND if you are sorry for doing it.

We must also be careful not to let "pride", "dignity", and "honor" get in the way of our judgement and hurt innocent people around us. "Not going down without a fight" just for the sake of "not going down without a fight" is not a good enough reason.
 
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567. Re: read the whole thing and understand Sep 14, 2001, 23:25 anon@24.228
 
The point is being missed already (not unexpected, and people, particularly those who are not Americans, will continue to miss it). Here's my thinking and why I posted it:

I admit the words are slightly archaic, particularly the last section (although I am a Christian I am not a zealot). Regardless, we're facing the same issues we were two hundred+ years ago as a new nation. Someone is trying to take away our freedom.

We're not out to force anyone to do anything but respect and acknowledge the freedom of others on this earth. Brush up on your Islamic fundamentalist knowledge. They are a throwback to the middle ages or worse. They want to take away freedom from a significant portion of the world's population based on a twisted derivate of the Islamic faith, and they have clearly demonstrated that they will use any means possible to attain this goal.

By contrast, although our efforts have been misguided in the past, the basic goal of allowing people to live in freedom is not about conquering anything, except perhaps repression and tyranny.

We also must be on guard against giving up our own freedom, particularly in the U.S., to those who govern us (i.e., ourselves). I'm not sure if the animals who caused the destruction and boundless grief on Tuesday thought it through this far (I doubt it), but we should give equal importance and forethought to the need to defend ourselves against ourselves. We need to protect against giving up the fundamental values of openness and individual sovereignty that we have consciously and unconsciously struggled for so long to acheive in this country. This covers everything the anti-Islamic sentiment already manifesting itself among the dregs of the melting pot to the healthy mistrust we must maintain against unreasonable search and seizure.

We need to walk a very high, tenuous tightrope between bringing a definitive end (i.e., total eradication) to forces of actual -- not conceptual -- evil in this world, and preserving our own fundamental freedoms. This crossing is where we will most need God's help.
 
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566. Re: read the whole thing and understand Sep 14, 2001, 22:44 anon@134.197
 
"Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust";"

That's ludicrous. We are not conquerers. Defending one's way of life, and one's freedom should not involve forcing others under your control simply because you deem your cause "just."
 
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565. Re: read the whole thing and understand Sep 14, 2001, 22:23 Cheeted
 
Thw hole Pearl Habour comparison is ludicrous. The media hype surrounding this tragic event serves exactly what the terrorists aim to acheive, attention and empathy to their cause from other anti-Americans. (They drove the second plane into the other tower AFTER the first because they KNEW it would have the greatest media effect, being caught completely on camera). Pearl Harbour was an unannounced attack on the American Fleet, the WTCBs, if they were instigated by bin Laden were announced. Bin Laden declared a Jihad against America, i.e. declared war, serveal years ago. None of this justifies any of the senseless killing but surely we need some perspective in this time of crisis.

 
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564. read the whole thing and understand Sep 14, 2001, 22:13 anon@24.228
 
Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight'
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming.
And the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen, thro' the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream;
'Tis the star-spangled banner: oh, long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh, thus be it ever when free men shall stand,
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Power that has made and preserved us as a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust";
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
 
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563. About that article... Sep 14, 2001, 20:21 anon@216.217
 
>>What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed. <<

Well it's a nice sentiment but he's wrong. They succeeded in killing and causing grief. That, I think, was their only goal.
 
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562. Re: To All Who Hate Americans Part 2... Sep 14, 2001, 18:50 anon@134.197
 
"You know what? Why don't all you peace-loving maggots go sift through the body parts at WTC?"

So you say the pursuit of peace is evil? Interesting...

Why don't YOU sift through the body parts. Then see if you haven't been fed up with violence.

"Ooooo..Hitler is mean! He's mass murdering everyone, but violence is bad."

Stopping Hitler was a very defensive action. It wasn't retaliatory, and it wasn't really offensive in the sense that the Allies did not directly start the conflict.

If this terrorist attack is really a foreshadowing of things that are much worse, then something has to be done. But we must use judgement, not just our hatred and thirst to show the world who's boss, in a situation like this.

If we must strike against someone, it should be against the terrorists themselves. Perhaps by capturing Bin Laden. We should not kill innocent civilians in the process.

If you want to sacrifice yourself for a cause, that's fine, but don't call the act of killing other innocent people a necessary sacrifice, because it's easy for you to say... they might not want to be sacrificed, especially if they're not part of the conflict and do not support the terrorists.

It is important to remember that the life of an innocent American civilian is NOT worth more or less than the innocent civilian of another nationality -- it is equal.

Remember, the most important thing is that we're all humans on this planet. Viciously asserting that you are of a given nationality isn't the right thing to do, because that's just a label devised by mere men.

This is why I'm not a fan of aggressive patriotism to any particular country. You say "we are the greatest nation", but how can you say "we" when chances are, you've played no part in it? If you were switched at birth with a person of a less prosperous nationality, it would make no difference.

People always band together, and I suppose it's fine to be patriotic -- but don't take it too far by slamming other people for being of a different nationality.

In conclusion, if action must be taken, take it wisely. Collateral damage is unacceptable in a situation like this.
I think some terrorists believe their missions are to make an impact first and foremost, and the innocent lives lost are just collateral damage.
 
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561. Re: WTC Sep 14, 2001, 17:39 anon@216.12
 
Well I am forwarding this chat to the FBI

One never knows when a wacko will screw up and post in an odd place
 
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560. WTC Sep 14, 2001, 17:28 anon@63.21
 
I beleive that these unholly cowards are soon to discover the fact that they've just pissed off the wrong people.

Portland, OR
 
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559. Good article Sep 14, 2001, 16:11 John
 
By Leonard Pitts Jr.
Syndicated columnist

They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and cultural issues, to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul.

But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.

What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous
emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.

We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though - peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

Some people - you, perhaps - think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some
Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.

Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, indeed, the history of the world. You've
bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental
pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.

I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

In days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security,
misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.

You see, there is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us. It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred.

If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.


This comment was edited on Sep 14, 16:21.
 
This space is available for rent
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558. Feel like an American Sep 14, 2001, 14:39 RudyM
 
Hi, I don't want to contribute to any of the arguments presented here, but can only say that I am angry. I don't know what that means, but I can honestly say that I've never felt this way before. I beg to express. . .

I am 27 years old and in my whole life, I don't think I've ever really known what it feels like to be an American. . . until now.
NOW I know what it feels like to be an American.
I was born in Denver, CO.
I am an American citizen, a citizen of the free world.
I love my state, I love my country and I love my fellow citizens.
I will die an American, whether that's in a hospital, in an accident, in a nursing home, or on a battlefield.
The patriotism that I feel today is unimaginable. It brings me to tears. To the victims of today and those to come, I will remember you always.
America: My heart is red, white, and blue and to you I will
be loyal always.

Thanks and God bless America

 
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557. Other Nations Sep 14, 2001, 14:30 DigitalSin
 
With all the garbage and hate posts I've seen about the US prior to this horrific tragedy, I was starting to wonder if we (the US) were the bane of society. Every country hates us, but just doesn't say anything (civilized countries anyway). With this event, I'm seeing so much support for the US and the people who live in it. It shows me and other Americans that these people who constantly bash the US are simply the minority.

We are now seeing who our true friends are, and to those nations and their citizens I think I speak for every true American when I say "Thank You". You are our brothers, and I would fight and die for any one of you should your freedom and democracy become jeopardized, as ours has.

This comment was edited on Sep 14, 14:32.
 
====================
You wouldn't care what people thought of you if you realized how seldom they do
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556. Re: Quote Sep 14, 2001, 14:17 anon@65.204
 
I certainly can't express that idea better than Mr. Mill did, however, allow me to be more practical and less idealistic. Eventually, bin Laden and his ilk will acquire biological and/or nuclear weapons and there can be no doubt that they will use them. Pacifism only works if your foe, despite whatever atrocities they may commit, deep down has a conscience. It worked for Ghandi in India against the British. It wouldn't have worked for the Jews against the Nazis. It won't work for the west against terrorism.

Pagan
 
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555. WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE T Sep 14, 2001, 13:55 anon@64.231
 
Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. step out your door, stop your car, or step out of your establishment and light a candle. We will show the world that Americans & Canadians are strong and united together against terrorism.

Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail list. We need to reach everyone across the United States & Canada quickly.

We need press to cover this -- we need the world to see.
 
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