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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

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654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 12.
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434. WTC Photo Gallery Sep 12, 2001, 17:02 anon@129.97
 
Just in case anyone gives a damn, I uploaded all the photos I collected over the net and posted on a geocities site:
http://www.geocities.com/wtc_destruction
 
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433. Re: My Considerations Sep 12, 2001, 16:59 anon@159.238
 
" Take it easy on the 'pups' #412. There's nothing wrong in being idealistic and a bit naive while you're still young. They've got plenty of time (hopefully) to grow up and figure out how the world really works. "

I agree with that in spirit, but one is never excused for not being respectful and humane.
 
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432. Re: suicide Sep 12, 2001, 16:53 anon@216.175
 
"Suicide, cowardly or not, was the alternative to being cooked alive. if those fires were hot enough to melt the steel in the girders, then I think the people were being cooked alive inside the building.

not a plesant thought."

Not pleasant at all. I wouldn't even term it suicide since they were dead anyway - they were just choosing the type of death. Awful.

Love others.
random
 
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431. No subject Sep 12, 2001, 16:48 anon@209.246
 
What a nightmare.
I began my commute yesterday from Brooklyn, NY to mid-Manhattan a bit late, about 8:35. I arrive at work at 9:25, the receptionist tells me my wife just called. I drop my bag, call her back: as she was walking our dog, Kazu (means "peace" in japanese), with a nice view over the east river to manhattan, she saw all this paper floating, like confetti, onto the streets. She grabbed one, singed around the edges, with all sorts of personal, usually confidential, financial data. She looks up and sees it came from the Tower 2, on fire, across the river. As she is looking, she witnesses the 2nd plane slam into Tower 1, an explosion and fire. She's sobbing over the phone to me, aghast at knowing she just witnessed an act that killed so many people. The TV says its terrorists. I leave work to go to Brooklyn. The subway keeps me in a tunnel between stops for 20 minutes. I sit next to a woman in with a stoller, rocking her baby, saying, "I hope daddy's alright". over and over. like a mantra. er husband worked in the towers. I get out at the next stop, worried about being incommunicado and caught in a subway, and begin the long (and I mean LOONG) walk to Brooklyn. The streets of manhattan are jammed. Cell phone works about once every 40 attempts as the circuits are flooded with thousands of calls by new yorkers to friends and families.

After nigh 40 attempts I finally reach my wife on cell as I walk down. She's spoken to my parents, a good friend of our family, Rosie, works on the 70th floor. We don't know yet...

I march south and pass hospitals with doctors and nurses nervously awaitning ambulances. The streets are full of people, most marching north. As I look down the avenue, enormous grey dust clouds billow across the island, on the horizon. I start to see sporadic people sobbing, some with dusty soot covered faces. I hear sniipets of conversations, news that "tower 1 has actually collapsed", there was another bulding bombed in D.C., the 2nd tower is gone, they're both gone.

A dozen city buses race down 2nd Avenue, filled with EMS personnel. Sirens blaring, and I start to feel smoke in my lungs. This is still 35 blocks north of the explosions.

My wife tells me, finally, that Rosie is alive, and home, and with her nearly devastated husband.

My father, who takes the PATH train from below the towers, luckily is early to work and left for Jersey at about 7:30. He witnessed the entire disaster through the easterly glass wall of his office directly across from lower Manhattan.

He didn't make it back home until this morning, after camping overnight on an apartment lobby couch in Jersey City.

I learned that somehow, the fiance of my co-worker made it out alive from the 104th floor of the 2nd tower hit in the attack. The fact that he is alive is a testament to the emergency procedures in place, coupled with his youth, I'm sure.

Yesterday, I finally made it down to the Manhattan bridge, normally an auto only bridge. But it was open only to pedestrians leaving the city. I trudged across the bridge amidst thousands of others on foot, some merely fleeing manhattan, some returning home to Brooklyn. Amid the span of the bridge, some paused to view the skyline of Manhattan, a dark grey cloud, thousands of feet high, where the towers had stood that morning. Many thousands of people waiting in Brooklyn, wondering where to go. An old man: "Pearl Harbor..? THis is far worse, I'll never forget this day.".

When I got near my block, all the cars were covered in cement dust, blown across the river, and a heavy acrid smell permeated the air. From the window of our house we could see the towers...no more. I'm still in shock, and grateful that those close to me are alive. I've been in those buildings so many times... I live next to a police precinct, and last night the officers stood on the precinct steps, talking and tallying up the dead amongst their ranks.

I live near a large middle-eastern community and was glad to see additional protection by the police today, to protect that community. My wife, who is Japanese, stiffens when she hears comparisons to Pearl Harbor, and hopes middle easterners don't suffer the same fate as the Japanese during WWII.

Josh Marshall
 
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430. Re: My Considerations (Re: #412) Sep 12, 2001, 16:47 anon@216.175
 
"People don't have the right to initiate force against others - I'm sorry if I gave this impression (and re-reading, I can see what you mean - I worded it badly)."

"And yes, morality is in the realm of opinion - I'm surprised you suggest anything else."

Can you be any more inconsistent?
 
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429. Re: Why shouldn't we?! Sep 12, 2001, 16:31 anon@129.196
 
Just a reminder to those who have forgotten history. I would not use war on Japan as a reference to why we should fight now. You do recal what happened when we declared war right? yeah the Americans in all their righteousness decided to use atomic warfare (an atrocity all on its own) against the CITIZENS of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Gee, that sound familiar? Bombing innocent civilians. Or perhaps you'd like to put all the people of MIddle Eastern decent into internment camps just like the Japanese. War breeds all sorts of ugliness as a side-effect, and should not be something you jump right into. What we need now is careful consideration of our options and not a bunch of irrational people screaming for blood.  
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428. Re: suicide Sep 12, 2001, 16:24 anon@207.2
 
#404:

Suicide, cowardly or not, was the alternative to being cooked alive. if those fires were hot enough to melt the steel in the girders, then I think the people were being cooked alive inside the building.

not a plesant thought.

Love others.
random
 
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427. Re: My Considerations (Re: #412) Sep 12, 2001, 16:21 Quboid
 
As I said, easily misunderstood.

People don't have the right to initiate force against others - I'm sorry if I gave this impression (and re-reading, I can see what you mean - I worded it badly). I wouldn't post something I can not back up, nor do I think it's justified as an opinion - again, I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

I don't see what you mean about the UN has no power apart from the governments behind it - I didn't (or did I give that impression) say that it is anything else. But they are hidding because they don't want to die - fair enough! Of course they shouldn't have put themselves in that position - that is not fair enough.

And yes, morality is in the realm of opinion - I'm surprised you suggest anything else. Virtually every meal I sit down to contains meat products that some people consider immoral - but in my opinion eating animals is OK.

And I "appease such barbarians"??? How many times did I state that I do not think this is right, in anticipation of people posting replies like you have. I accept that I didn't make it clear - SOME parts of this is too fuzzy for a straight yes/no or good/bad. But much of it is pure bad and wrong and I in no way think they had justification with what they did.

Cheers,
Xain

War doesn't decide who's right - just who's left.
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
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426. Re: My Considerations Sep 12, 2001, 16:16 anon@63.150
 
Take it easy on the 'pups' #412. There's nothing wrong in being idealistic and a bit naive while you're still young. They've got plenty of time (hopefully) to grow up and figure out how the world really works. To paraphrase Churchill,
"If you're twenty and not liberal, you have no heart. If you're forty and not conservative, you have no head".

Pagan
 
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425. Re: 417 Sep 12, 2001, 16:08 anon@213.66
 
Uh, ok, let's see if I got this straight.

The US won't stop killing children, because Red China is in the UN? Wow. That's deeeep, man.

The UN is like a mediator, asking everyone to come to the table and agree on what's right, even if all of those are
unable to act upon the consensus.
 
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424. what good does killing everyone do? Sep 12, 2001, 16:08 anon@172.149
 
To all those people who think we should just go in there and kill everyone...

That will solve nothing. Yes, we should go in and get those responsible. But killing their innocents is just as bad as our innocents getting killed. It'll just turn into a cycle of they bomb us, we bomb them back. Its time to strike at the root of the problem, which isn't ben ladin. We need to help out the palestines/muslims, and make them happy. You can take out ben ladin, but we'll always have someone who is ready to pick up where he left off. Kill them with kindness. That's the only way to assure that this sort of tradgity never happens again.
 
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423. Re: My Considerations (Re: #418) Sep 12, 2001, 16:06 Quboid
 
Countries have laws against as it is 99.9% of people's opinions that it's wrong, and that it's necessary to keep peace. These people don't consider it wrong, therefore it cannot be fact - it can't be fact if there isn't 100% of people who consider it wrong.

I'm sure cannibal's also considered it fair enough - they had a reason, yes, but so did the terrorists, however bad the reason was. It's our opinion now that that is very wrong, but it was their opinion that they were right to kill (and eat) other humans.

Cheers,
Xain

War doesn't decide who's right - just who's left.
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
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422. Re: 417 Sep 12, 2001, 16:03 Shingen
 
"Yes, that is, as I understand it, the reason why the US failed to sign. They need to be able to execute children in some states."


The United States does not desire to sign many of the U.N.'s declarations, because the U.S. does not desire to cease being a sovereign nation in any regard, and in turn become a nation whose actions are determined by a 'united' group of nations, which is supposed to be dedicated to individual rights, but includes among its members the greatest violators of individual rights in history, including Red China.

The U.N. is like a neighborhood crime watch that invites the criminals to join.
This comment was edited on Sep 12, 16:05.
 
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421. Re: My Considerations (Re: #412) Sep 12, 2001, 15:57 Shingen
 
"Also, it is not fact that it's wrong and sick - this is opinion."


It isn't an opinion; you have no right to initiate the use of force on another individual. Their life isn't yours to do with as you please.

Your ability to justify, by proclaiming "opinion" is disgusting, and then to cowardly back-track by stating "OK OK OK, I'm NOT saying I think it's OK." You cannot back up your claims, and you used that as a means to avoid having to.

---

"Hiding? Come on, they're not that stupid - no country could do this and openly admit it as the US (plus the UN) could crush any other 1 country (not that a country was directly responible for this)."


The U.N. has no power other than that provided by the governments that make up the U.N.; beyond that you are correct. That is precisely why those that are responsible for this are hiding. They are cowards.

---

"I do not in any way think these attacks were morally right"


You think whether the actions were "wrong and sick" is "opinion," but then you declare that you do not think "these attacks were morally right." So you think morality is the realm of opinion. You're one of the middle of the roaders who appease such barbarians, by making it possible to excuse their actions on the grounds of: 'sick? wrong? twisted? oh but that is just silly opinion.'

It's a variation of the "don't judge!" argument.

 
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420. Re: 417 Sep 12, 2001, 15:52 anon@213.66
 
I won't comment on your lack of knowledge regarding the specifics of a small, insignificant UN declaration that the US neglected to sign. After all, child labor, child executions, what's the difference? Yes, that is, as I understand it, the reason why the US failed to sign. They need to be able to execute children in some states.

"As far as breathing clean air, I do agree this is something the US needs to work on. However, I'm not sure the impact this has on freedom or democracy...people are free to live wherever they want, I prefer not near refineries."

You seem to believe that once you pollute, you pollute only that portion, and that it won't move with air and sea currents all across the globe. That's OK. We're all entitled to believe.

We're also free to breathe in the garbage that the world's top polluters spews out. If not, hey, we can always switch planets to live on, can't we? Can't we?
 
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419. Re: My Considerations (Re: #412) Sep 12, 2001, 15:48 anon@130.195
 
The terrorists clearly did not think it was wrong, their opinion was that it is right. Our opinion is that it is wrong. It's opinion.
We have those laws because the majority of people have morals, morals are also opinionistic. Some people have morals which i wouldn't particularly consider.
Almost all countries have laws against marijuana, because people in power consider it wrong... ask a couple of million people if it's wrong however, and they'll say no. It's all opinion really.
 
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418. Re: My Considerations (Re: #412) Sep 12, 2001, 15:26 anon@159.238
 
"Also, it is not fact that it's wrong and sick - this is opinion. OK OK OK, I'm NOT saying I think it's OK, and I do NOT find this anything other than sick and very, very wrong. But it is a matter of opinion - that's a fact"

I highly disagree with this statement. If it is opinion that murdering innocent people is wrong, then every single country on the planet would not have a law against it, would they? This was murder, thus it was plain wrong and sick. This is my logic, anyway.
 
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417. Re: 412. My Considerations Sep 12, 2001, 15:23 anon@159.238
 
"There are two (2) nations in the world who have -NOT- signed the UN declaration of children's rights.

Somalia and the US of A. "

I'm not quite certain how this disputes my claim that the US is the leader of the free world. But you have to forgive me, I do not know the mechanics of this UN declaration.

I do know that the US does not condone or partake in child slave labor (which is probably untrue for some of the signees of this declaration, i.e. if Russia signed it).

As far as breathing clean air, I do agree this is something the US needs to work on. However, I'm not sure the impact this has on freedom or democracy...people are free to live wherever they want, I prefer not near refineries.
 
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416. Re: My Considerations (Re: #412) Sep 12, 2001, 15:06 Quboid
 
Eeek! You're stepping on toes there!

Leader of the free world? I find this offensive, and it's also why there is so much anti-US attitudes on the net.

Also, it is not fact that it's wrong and sick - this is opinion. OK OK OK, I'm NOT saying I think it's OK, and I do NOT find this anything other than sick and very, very wrong. But it is a matter of opinion - that's a fact. This doesn't really have any relevancy, and is no doubt going to be misunderstood and flamed, but anyway.

I also dispute the word coward - I wouldn't be brave enough to poke a sleeping lion! Of course the main reasons I haven't done this is moral grounds and lack of reason, any, it takes guts to try this - guts and fanatical stupidity. Hiding? Come on, they're not that stupid - no country could do this and openly admit it as the US (plus the UN) could crush any other 1 country (not that a country was directly responible for this).

I certainly do agree with your "The US deserved it" discussion. The people who died - people who left their homes in the morning to do an honest day's work did nothing to deserve it - they didn't even have anything to do with Middle Eastern conflicts (assuming that's who did this) apart from pay taxes that funded the US's involvement (which I pretty much agree with, BTW), and you can bet they all complained about paying it (of course) and many strongly felt that they don't want it going into foreign trouble zones.

I large agree with what you say, but I just wanted to mention a few things I object too. I also want to make absolutely clear, as what I said is probably a tinderbox waiting for flames, that I do not in any way think these attacks were morally right.

Cheers,
Xain

War doesn't decide who's right - just who's left.
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
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415. Re: 412. My Considerations Sep 12, 2001, 15:02 anon@213.66
 
I agree with 1, 2 and most of 3 (uh, most wars are fought to preserve freedom -on one side-, but the other side usually fights for wealth, whether land, people or resources, such as oil).

On 4, and I quote:
"we are in fact the leader of the free world"

I do have two short facts:

There are two (2) nations in the world who have -NOT- signed the UN declaration of children's rights.

Somalia and the US of A.

The US of A walked out from the Kyoto meetings, refusing to work for a living world to make sure it's industry remains productive.

Please, don't say you're the 'leader of the free world'.
It rings false, at least to children and people that like to breathe clean air.
 
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