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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

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654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 11.
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454. Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 Sep 12, 2001, 21:48 anon@129.21
 
Microsoft Flight Simulators should be banned or rated +T, not for sale to terrorists!!

This flight simulator has caused more harm than even the worst crazy kid who played a lot of doom2!
 
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453. Re: Thanks to Blue Sep 12, 2001, 21:19  Frans 
 
Yeah but the page name is still the same. Take that down too please. Look at the task bar...
Done.

-- Frans
News editor, http://www.bluesnews.com/
3D Gamers admin, http://www.3dgamers.com/
 
Avatar 1258
 
-- Frans
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452. Re: things Sep 12, 2001, 21:00 anon@24.4
 
Thank God (even though I'm atheist) that those two thirds that want immediate action are not ruling the country. It is, hopefully, mostly cool-headed, and logically thinking people.

--Ewigekraft23
 
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451. very much missed Sep 12, 2001, 20:56 anon@24.240
 
BTW whatever happened to the Dude? You could always count on him to chime in on hot threads like this with a half page of incoherent, badly spelled, rambling flame.

Pagan
 
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450. Ireland Sep 12, 2001, 20:38 anon@130.195
 
I wonder if President Bush is aware that by declaring that they are against Terrorism, and the countries which harbor them... that he's going to have to take action against Ireland, as the IRA are a terrorist organisation.
I can see quite a predicament related to that in the near future.
 
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449. Contradictions Sep 12, 2001, 20:25 anon@205.247
 
What kind of idiot says that no one has the right to use force against anyone else, but then says morality is a matter of opinion?! So I could take your wallet and rape you, and say that's what I felt I should do because it was the right thing to do...?  
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448. things Sep 12, 2001, 19:58 anon@216.217
 
1) http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_muslims.shtml

2) "Two-thirds of those surveyed by CBS News said the United States should retaliate even if innocent people are killed." (can you say IRONY?)

3) This is a faq about bin Laden: http://www.msnbc.com/news/627355.asp
Notice that it tells anything you might want to know about him...except WHY. Why do they hate the US and its western allies? Do YOU know? How much are the many CIA-assisted coups (influenced by commercial interests) in places like Chile, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc. ever discussed? Or the use of these places as pawns in the game of "containing the communist menace"? It's easier just to dehumanize Arabs and say they're crazy.

Terrorism isn't madness, it's DESPERATION.

I think the only path out of this situation is open dialogue of ALL OF THE ISSUES. The United States and Britain need to acknowledge their middle east role over the past decades and address the griefs of these people. Not spout empty, predictable platitudes about "terror will not stand." Terror will stand as long as people are oppressed.
 
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447. Re: ...he who fights monsters... Sep 12, 2001, 19:52 anon@24.240
 
Michael Moore is a talented director specializing in, I think it's fair to say, left of center documentaries. Even though he is far more intelligent and witty than I, I would like to point out some flaws in his logic.

1) I'm no bin Laden expert but I do know he is a wealthy Saudi Arabian who has been hiding in Afghanistan for at least the last five years. Was he there during the war with Russia in the mid 1980's? I can't say but regardless, the Afghanistans were trained by United States personnel not in terrorism but in war. They weren't going over the border killing Soviet citizens. They were in their homeland fighting an occupying army who was also an enemy of ours.

2) Yes the United States was in bed with dictators and murderers in Central and South America during the Cold War.
We weren't there because we enjoy the sight of murdered civilians and nuns but because we believed we were fighting a greater evil named communism. Once the Cold War was over, we dumped those bastards like yesterday's kitty litter. Now most of those countries are true democracies. Was it worth it? You tell me.

3) We are not contending with terrorists from Salvador, Vietnam or Chili. They could care less what our past political and military actions have been. They hate us for one basic reason: our support of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East and the single small country that has been kicking their collective asses for over 50 years.

4) You can always count on Mr. Moore's feelings of white guilt. We suspected bin Laden immediately because he went after the WTC a decade ago and because NYC and DC are the kind of sexy targets, with all due respect to OK City, these pricks target. Besides, the right wing nuts in this country are too freakin' stupid to fly a plane and not fanatical enough for suicide missions.

5) I'll assume the Bush comments at the end were made in jest. Otherwise, they're too asinine to comment on.

If I have made factual errors here, please correct me.

Pagan
 
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446. Re: Thanks to Blue Sep 12, 2001, 19:16  Blue 
 
Yeah but the page name is still the same. Take that down too please. Look at the task bar...

That's hard-coded in the messageboards... I may manage to get it out of there, but it's not a trivial task, and there are other things that need at least as much attention as that.

Hopefully, you will understand if this doesn't get accomplished.

Stephen "Blue" Heaslip
Blue's News Publisher, Editor-in-Chief, Il Presidente for Life
 
Avatar 2
 
Stephen "Blue" Heaslip
Blue's News Publisher, Editor-in-Chief, El Presidente for Life
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445. Re: Someone Sent Me This Sep 12, 2001, 19:15 anon@213.66
 
The editorial would have been more impressive had the editor gotten his details correctly... I'm not an historian, but I -do- know that 'Airbus', 'Fokker', 'Saab' and many more are successful, modern airliners that are not manufactured in or by American companies... duh.

The dude that wrote that editorial must have been living in a box the last ten years...
 
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444. Re: ...he who fights monsters... Sep 12, 2001, 19:14 anon@217.5
 
"Nietsche's famous words and the truth behind them : "He who fights monsters should look to it that he does not become a monster...if you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you.""

Frederich Nietsche is not the person I would be quoting here. He is hypocritical as he bred a lot of the Nazi sentiments.
 
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443. Re: Thanks to Blue Sep 12, 2001, 19:12 anon@217.5
 
"I just noticed that Blue did indeed take "All the carnage that's fit to post!" off of the main page. Thank you once again, Blue."

Yeah but the page name is still the same. Take that down too please. Look at the task bar...
 
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442. Re: ...he who fights monsters... Sep 12, 2001, 18:58 Theron
 
#436 brings up an interesting point. I'd have to totally agree with that statement, as I myself have had a similar experience. While on my way to Florida, we went through Customs. Shortly afterwards, we had to go through the metal detectors and have our bags x-rayed. However, they let me go on through WITHOUT going through the metal detector. I could have easily had a conceiled weapon on me, and got off scott free.

I do want to bring up something else however. For starters, I would just like to share my condolences for those whom may have perished in the attack, those who survived, and for their families. This was a terrible act of terrorism, and I hope that those responsible receive the punishment they deserve. What concerns me is that terrorist events have been going on for a long time now. A few weeks back, several suicide bombers blew up buildings in Israel and Palestine, however that never warranted a G.A.T (Gamers Against Terrorism - See PlanetHalfLife), it never gained large amounts of media attention, nor did the American government seem to react whatsoever, let alone care. Now, the US get's attacked in an extreme cruel act of terrorism. All of a sudden Americans are 100% against terrorism, and implore other countries of the world to follow their crusade to rid the world of such attrocities. Where was this attention when it was going on elsewhere?

You know what? The Canadian government (from which I fall under) aren't any better. We sat around, and all of a sudden decide to take action as well. I just wish to bring up the point that maybe attention to the matter of terrorism should have been paid a long time ago, instead of waiting for one of the worlds superpowers to feel it's wrath.

Neo

 
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441. Someone Sent Me This Sep 12, 2001, 18:52 anon@159.238
 
Someone just sent this to me, I just thought it was an interesting read. Canadians rock =)


"
A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional

Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
read regarding the United States. It is nice that
one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the
world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything and never even get a thank you for the
things we do. "
 
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440. Thanks to Blue Sep 12, 2001, 18:12 anon@24.4
 
I just noticed that Blue did indeed take "All the carnage that's fit to post!" off of the main page. Thank you once again, Blue.

--Ewigekraft23
 
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439. Re: ...he who fights monsters... Sep 12, 2001, 17:51 anon@213.122
 
A very interesting piece. Who is Michael Moore? He has the facts, and he sounds like he's on the right wavelength to me. So what's so wrong with him - his "obvious political stance"? Are you suggesting that in his condemnation of certain U.S. policies over the years, he's betraying the American people, or he's untrustworthy?

Sorry if this makes no sense, it's 10:44PM here.

--Chris
 
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438. Re: I know this thread is slowing down.... Sep 12, 2001, 17:33 anon@24.4
 
but it's the best one I've seen yet

Very true. This is the only board I've spent time looking at and I've read most of the comments on here. There have been many intelligent subconversations throughout the post, with almost all of the people that posted expressing their grief for the loss of life.

It's good to know that even though the media says gamers are a bunch of antisocial apathist that sit in our rooms at home that we are not, and are instead actual intelligent beings that know how to expressively convey our ideas, emotions and opinions.

Once again, my condolences go out to those personally affected, and I express my regret that I am to young to be able to help anyone out there.

I would also like to thank Blue for posting this news and establishing this thread.

--Ewigekraft23
 
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437. Re: ...he who fights monsters... Sep 12, 2001, 17:31 KaRRiLLioN
 
I love how Bush catches all the blame. There is no way that in 8 months he has had enough time to "anger" these fanatics into action. Whether Gore or Bush were president, this would have happened. It doesn't matter to these terrorists at all. They view the US as a monolithic entity as many ppl view the government.

I do agree that the US has had some very wrongheaded policies regarding the arming of foreign nationals. If we truly want a country to be free to choose democracy, then I don't think our involvement is necessary. The people of that nation should have every freedom to choose without us sticking our noses into it. If they wish to die for freedom, then that is our choice. Our forefathers made those choices a long time ago and we are enjoying the fruits of their labor.

 
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436. ...he who fights monsters... Sep 12, 2001, 17:11 Lord Dakushna
 
A friend of mine just emailed me with an interesting piece by Michael Moore. Despite his obvious political stance and general cynicism I think this information is important to consider. I wonder, what would Nietsche say?

--BEGIN--------------------------------------------------
From Michael Moore:

Death, Downtown

Dear friends,
I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight
from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an
incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island
where I work and live in New York City.

My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being
awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to
contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works
near the World Trade Center.

I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower
imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out,
leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live.

It was a sick, horrible, frightening day.

On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a
terrorist incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people
dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of
passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.)

I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still
brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to
live. a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still
here, there but for the grace of.

Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my
illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons
through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well.

Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security:

* At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The
counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get
on" -- without a ticket!

* At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just
bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through
the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space
between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him "It's just a
sandwich." He believes me and doesn't bother to check. The sack has
gone through neither security device.

* At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide
to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with
my bag -- no one knowing what is in it.

* Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By
the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the
passengers to the terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the
tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag
down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the
rest of the way to the terminal.

* I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion
brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us.

Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines
consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour
to make sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my
life is worth -- less than the cost of an oil change.

Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on
American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives
around $15,000 a year in annual pay.

That's right -- $15,000 for the person who has your life in his
hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over
$13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four
kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps --
and he was eligible!

Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is.

So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the
FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one
thing -- the bottom line and the profit margin.

Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security
on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this
heinous act? My only response is -- that's all?

Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the
"terrorist threat" and today's scariest dude on planet earth --
Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something
just doesn't add up.

Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a
desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern,
sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are
able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these
planes were so far off path?

Or am I being asked to believe that there were four
religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots
who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?

Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause
-- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know.

What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about
this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster
known as Osama bin Laden!

Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!

Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that
laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA
trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism
against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran.
Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might
be fun to use those same techniques against us.

We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing.

We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in
the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me.
Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even
remembers!

We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of
innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to
interrupt our day one single bit.

We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the
world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in
Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when
those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the
horror we have helped cause.

Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted
by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of
ex-military guys who hated the federal government.

From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that
possibility suggested. Why is that?

Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key
ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new
enemy is the all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to
hate when the object of our hatred doesn't look like us.

Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for
the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear
any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we
should have only one priority: our self-defense.

Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure
when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have
nice running shoes?

In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again.
He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban
conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you
name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.

The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous
version of "God Bless America." They're not a bad group of singers!

Yes, God, please do bless us.

Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right.
They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at
Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT
VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of
California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!

Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity.

Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine
our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.
It doesn't have to be like this.
Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
--END--------------------------------------------------

Despite the information that (as Mr. Moore puts it) "WE created the monster", this is a tragic event, but serves to remind us of Nietsche's famous words and the truth behind them : "He who fights monsters should look to it that he does not become a monster...if you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you." Thats all I have to say about that.


This comment was edited on Sep 12, 17:30.
 
---------------------------------------
Lord Dakushna

"Laugh while you can Monkey Boy!" - John Lithgow in Buckaroo Bonzai
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435. Re: Replies/2 cents Sep 12, 2001, 17:02 Propagandhi
 
I'll try and defend my statements as best I can, but you did have some rather good points mister 206.83....

Bravery is, in my opinion, doing what you feel is right despite the terrible cost to you. This is what these terrorists did and although I don't condone their actions or their way of dealing with problems (force) I do believe this was not a cowardly act. A cowardly act would be launching a biolical weapon, realeasing arsenic or somet such chemical into Manhattan would not, in my opinion, be bravery. These terrorists did what they felt needed to be done, despite the fact that they would pay the ultimate price for doing it. And BTW, I bet the people that were carrying out these attacks felt they would save lives either directly or indirectory in the near or far future (we will not know until their motives become more clear, if they become more clear in fact.) This fits your definition of bravery rather well.


Wow, never served in the military, have we? Never been subject to being ordered into harm's way? Never trained years to perform well once there? Perhaps you have done all this...and you still wouldn't have the right to uniformly condemn men and women who do the duty you so casually dimiss with contempt. You do realize that some of them don't come back, right? Putting yourself in that situation, especially when you have family you want to go back to, is not cowardly. I wish you would consider your positions on the US side of this issue with more than the stupid (sorry, it really fits) callousness you display here.


I am not condemning the men and women who make up the US armed forces, I am condemning those who order these attacks, which I do not believe are constitutional (no police actions are.) I have the deepest respect for those who put their lives on the line every day to complete the orders that were ordered by the people appointed by the people whom we the people elected (perhaps that long a chain of command is part of the problems, as well.) The point I was trying to make (I did a rather poor job of this as I'd been writing for quite some time and my thoughts were becoming scrambled, my appoligies) was that what America does each day is no less cowardly than this attack on the WTC and Pentagon. I think you may understand me a little better now :-/ .


Oh really...when was the last time YOU tried to avoid a situation like this? A former ambassador, are we? On the Counter-Terrorist Task Force, are we, or should we just ignore the many attempts that have gone before this on your say so, "just because"? Or are you talking out your ass about an issue you don't really know about? Hey, you're probably responding to some people who did the same thing, but it doesn't excuse you, now, does it? Perhaps it isn't so easy to solve the world's problems as you think.


I never said that I could do a better job, I simply stated that those who are alledgedly professionals when it comes to matters like this (president included) have not finished their job and brought peace to the middle east. I know I couldn't do it but that doesn't mean those who are trained for these kind of situations can't or shouldn't be able to. Senators, representatives, and ambassadors from both parties have promised that they would stabalize the situation in the middle east, yesterday's events proved that they had not. Do I not have a right to be angry with those who had claimed they would protect us and then failed? I did not say that it was easy to stabalize that area, I simply said that we were once very close and are now obviously farther than ever (at least on a social level, the leaders of the middle eastern countries are being quite apologetic thus suggesting that those in formal positions of power are no longer out to get us.) I hope that clarified how I feel :-/ .


Yep, collateral damage is pretty horrible...yet, I'm sure our cowardly serviceman just love it when it happens. I'm sure they're glad they get the excuse to INTEND to kill civilians, just like terrorists. I think you are a bit confused in that cowardly label you throw around...or do you really mean that NOT intending to kill civilians is more cowardly? You know what is pretty horrible, too? Putting civilians in military targets, and putting military targets INTENTIONALLY near to schools and hospitals. Hmm...strange how in the U.S., the government tries to DEFEND it's people, not USE their lives in such a fashion in hopes of political leverage.


If you do not like something, but you continue to do it, and you continue to see that it happens, what does this make you? The military knows about collateral damage, and they expect it each time they attack, yet they continue to attack. Alternate methods are not even considered, despite the fact that they exist (although, they do take more effort.) Yes, Iraq does place its military targets in locations that do not make bombing easy, but can we expect him to just leave them out in the open? I believe that the US would do the same thing if those in power did not have to worry about relection ever 2, 4, 6 years, thank god for democracy.

Well, this is all I can say for now (have to run ) I'll be back later, and try and explain my views/actions more, hope you do the same 206.83 (lack of log-in understood, of course.) My apoligies for not addressing everything

 
I eat pasta!
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