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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

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654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 2.
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634. Re: Just out of curiosity Sep 18, 2001, 04:34 anon@158.152
 
DigitalSin:
Thanks for your comments - especially for avoiding the easy step of making this into an argument about the rights and wrongs of the Irish situation. All sides have committed what could be termed attrocities and all sides could be considered terrorists. I'm gonna shy away from getting into the state-sponsored terrorism arguments that can be drawn here.

You're basically admitting to supporting an admittedly terrorist organization in the PIRA. Yes, the official IRA have obeyed a ceasefire since 1997(?), but if you ask Bin Laden, I suspect he'll tell you that he's obeying a ceasefire. He's certainly not admitting to the Sept 11th attacks.
I think it's naive to suggest that you can support the PIRA and not be supporting terrorism. There has been no movement from the PIRA as far as decommissioning their weapons, so I find that I must question their commitment to a peaceful settlement.

Incidentally, Nelson Mandella was imprisoned for being a terrorist (without trial - bad!) - a fact which I believe he admitted. The ANC was a terrorist organization at the time, so maybe the US should bomb South Africa?
 
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633. Re: No subject Sep 18, 2001, 03:11 anon@165.228
 
I am tired of hearing about the US referred to as a big bully. Please! Get your shit straight.]
Human nature. If you are the biggest kid in the school ground and your lot is better than everyones elses, then you're open to resentment.

And as far as the US just bombing the Afghan people with no rhyme or reason, get real! We are not the criminals here.]
Hmm...1998 - America fires cruise missiles into Sudan and Afganistan. No warning, no declaration of war. At least the terrorists inflicted thier brutality and cowardly attacks at a personal cost, with more reason than to win votes.

You can keep tracing revenge and percieved injustice further and further back....there is no more right and wrong in these cases.
The concept of morally valid revenge is a fantasy created in Holywood, and sustained by simple minded rednecks needing an excuse to validate their existance.

Hate is the evil here. Hate breeds hate, and with soo many people wanting to feed this fire, it makes me think that bin Laden and the US are a perfect couple. At least be objective enough to realise that this is nothing to do with moral high-ground...just ego and over-hyped media induced frenzy.
 
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632. Re: No subject Sep 18, 2001, 01:02 anon@208.178
 
I am tired of hearing about the US referred to as a big bully. Please! Get your shit straight. How many times have your heard or read in your papers about the good we do all over the world? Not a lot I'll bet. Because most countries and media types feed on the negative. We spend millions on aid to countries that hate us. And we are glad to help and ease human suffering. But we are tired of the anti-American BS!

And as far as the US just bombing the Afghan people with no rhyme or reason, get real! We are not the criminals here. We will go after those responsible. There may be some collateral damage. But I will bet there will be more staged BS like the baby milk factory in Iraq. Funny that the building was rumble but the sign was not damaged. And it was nice that they spelt baby-milk factory in English so we would know what it was...

My point is that we will go out of our way to prevent civilians from getting killed. Unlike the murderous villains that targeted and killed over 5400 innocent civilians in New York alone.

And if the people of Afghanistan what their country back then now is the time. The world will assist you not just the USA.
 
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631. Re: No subject Sep 17, 2001, 19:31 anon@24.240
 
Thanks Jim for the eye-opening essay. It's important to remember that the Afghans are not the enemy. Tonight the news reported that the Pentagon is planning massive air strikes down the road for Afghanistan and Iraq. I hope we don't kill innocents while the actual targets are hiding in caves.

"Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first."

I've heard that India is going to allow us to post troops there as well as another country that actually borders Afghanistan to the northwest. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name.

"but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam
and the West, he's got a billion soldiers."


I do not believe that many Moslems will follow this nut.
Today, there was a protest march in Pakistan over the government's cooperation with American requests to use Pakistani airspace. About 500 people showed up. I live near KKK country here in Texas. Whenever the clan has a rally, about six losers in sheets make an appearance. We need to give people more credit to having the common sense not to follow hate (Hitler being the exception).

Pagan
 
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630. No subject Sep 17, 2001, 16:13 anon@216.131
 
I just received this from my friend and it is a very sobering article. I hope everyone will read this and pass it on.
-jim

Prof. Frederick Tung
Visiting Professor of Law
University of California
Hastings College of the Law
(415) 565-4637; (415) 565-4865 (fax)


Dear Friends,
>The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
>Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I
>know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen.
>Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.
>-Gary T.

>Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:
>
>I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
>Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this
would
>mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this
>atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
>else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
>whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
>
>And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I
am
>from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've
>never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who
>will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
>
>I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
>doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in
>New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
>
>But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even
the
>government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
>psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
>criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
>think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
>Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not
>only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They
>were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone
>would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest
of
>international thugs holed up in their country.
>
>Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
>answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
>A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
>disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
>There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
>widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
>farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
reasons
>why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
>
>We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
>Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.
>Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?
>Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their
>hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from
>medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
>
>New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
>least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the
>Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away
>and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans,
they
>don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over
>Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the
>criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making
>common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've
>been raping all this time
>
>So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
>true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
there
>with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what
>needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill
>as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about
>killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's
>actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some
>Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin
>Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any
>troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let
>us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will
>other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're
>flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
>
>And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
>wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
>all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
might
>seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam
>and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a
>holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to
>lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably
>wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the
>war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but
>ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
>
>Tamim Ansary

 
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629. #614 Sep 17, 2001, 15:52 anon@217.81
 
#614 "BTW, it is irresponsible for the authors of this web page to refer to these events as the WTC Disaster. It encourages the kind of denial I'm speaking of, as if this were the hurricane of the century or some such claptrap. These were terrorist attacks and should be referred to as such."

I am not surprised by your anger. But point it at those that really deserve it. I don't think it is "irresponsible" as such to call it a disaster. http://www.dictionary.com describes a disaster as...

"An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress..."

I think this is a pretty accurate description of what happened. It is also, of course, murder. But that goes without saying. Let's not get tied up in the grey matter of the English language. I think we all agree that this is nothing less than murder, and an occurrence that causes wide spread desruction and distress. Use your anger for good and make sure it is directed at those responsible, not innocent reporters that use a word that they prefer to describe something that NO word can describe.
 
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628. Re: Just out of curiosity Sep 17, 2001, 14:28 DigitalSin
 
We can only use our best judgement when supporting political groups. The "Real IRA" has been publicly denounced by both the Provisional IRA and Sinn Fein (and just about every political group in Ireland). Should Sinn Fein or the IRA ever support this group, they would lose my support.

It's just like when you or I pay our taxes. We can only trust that our Governments are putting that money where we want it to go.

Yes I will continue to support Sinn Fein and the PIRA. However I will never support attacks on Irish or British citizens. Both the British and the IRA have done things that we can't support in the past, but hopefully the Good Friday Agreement will be put through and the peace process will continue despite the attempts by common thugs targeting children to thwart the progress.

You're absolutely right when saying that evil doesn't always wear a dark skin - case in point the RUC has done many things worthy of the terrorist label.

 
====================
You wouldn't care what people thought of you if you realized how seldom they do
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627. Over Analyzing Sep 17, 2001, 14:28 anon@64.220
 
Let's forget the how's and the why's. Let's put this in simplistic terms. There are two sides. Those who support terrorism and those who oppose it. Pick a side and get ready...  
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626. Re: Just out of curiosity Sep 17, 2001, 10:10 anon@158.152
 
So are you certain that the money you give to Sinn Fein does not go to the Real IRA? 100% cast-iron certain?
What about the Sinn Fein guys in Colombia training the terrorists down there? At least one of them is an official Sinn Fein politician - don't you wonder whether you paid for his plane ticket?

I'm not arguing about the RHD and the UDA or whoever - as you say, they are all as bad as each other. But you need to remember that evil doesn't always have dark skin, or wear 'funny' clothes.

Are you still giving money to Sinn Fein?
 
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625. Re: Just out of curiosity Sep 17, 2001, 09:51 DigitalSin
 
I do give money to Sinn Fein. The IRA of course has observed a ceasefire since 1997. How about the British loyalist group Red Hand Defenders? The Irish children face those terrorists every day. They throw pipe bombs at school girls and its hardly given notice.

The "Real IRA" and the Red Hand Defenders are as bad as those savages that struck New York. We should wipe them out.

This comment was edited on Sep 17, 09:53.
 
====================
You wouldn't care what people thought of you if you realized how seldom they do
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624. Just out of curiosity Sep 17, 2001, 08:20 anon@158.152
 
Have all you nice 'Irish' American chaps stopped giving money to NorAid? You know, the fundraisers for the IRA, that terrorist group us Brits have been facing for over 20 years.
Surely by giving support to the IRA you Yanks are supporting terrorists and therefore you should be bombing the shit out of New York?

Hmm.

People in glass houses shouldn't drop bombs
 
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623. No subject Sep 17, 2001, 02:24 teh mane man
 
605, that is an idiotic post of yours if you ignored my apology in the following post shortly after the first, instigative post.

 
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622. Bin Laden or Whoever... Who Cares! Sep 17, 2001, 01:28 anon@208.178
 
Does it matter which group it was? Really? No, in my opinion it does not. They are all the same insane murderous desease that must be erradicated. To do this would benifit the world not just the US. Terrorism must be stopped and no-longer supported by Governments or Nations, period.

Yes, this was an attack, an act of WAR. The USA did not ask for this war but they will not sit idle and let more of these terrorists murder our citizens. Not US citizens but citizens of the world. The dead are from all walks of life and from many nations.

This is not a US war, but they will lead it. This murder was commited against their people on their soil and they have every right to defend themselves against it.

They are a proud nation. They have a lot to be proud of. And people of other nations should be proud of their homeland as well. And ponder the thought... what if this happened in your country? Would you sit idle and wait for more? Would you give up your freedom and your way of life? Would you close your borders? Would you cave in to their demands? Or...

Would you take action and try to prevent this act of war, this act of mass murder, this attack on humanity from happening again, and again? The American people have been attacked numerous times before in other countries...

I think a lot of foriegners are blinded by their hate and jealousy of America. But they don't seem to mind so much when the USA assists them in times of need. So put your hate and jealousy aside. What has the US done to you anyway?

Unite as a new world order... as a global economy we all need this to happen. If the stronger economy colapses what will happen to yours? Has anybody thought of these things? Or have you just filled your minds with hate?

And we should all mourn the dead. They are from many nations. Not just America. Remember the fallen and this horrible act. And pray it does not happen again. Be part of the solution not part of the problem. Peace to all nations is the goal...
 
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621. Re: Hold your horses contd. Sep 16, 2001, 19:36 anon@195.92
 
#613. There's actually some fairly solid evidence that the people they believe to be involved were linked, if not necessarily directly, with Islamic Jihad and friends. Unfortunately I don't have a good link to it at the moment and the only copy I do have is paper, so I can't help on that front, but let's just say the intel people have been working overtime on it  
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620. Re: This War Sep 16, 2001, 18:10 anon@24.185
 
Re # 611:

Kyoto is a bit off-topic, but the reason why 98 US Senators voted against it when Clinton proposed it was because the conditions of the Kyoto Protocol would impose different requirements on differnt countries. Basically the whole Kyoto Protocol was an attack against the US. We would have the strictest of conditions, which would have had a greatly detrimental impact on this country's economy. China and other developing countries, which spew out tons and tons of industrial waste and have very weak environmental protetcions, would have few restrictions placed on them. The US probably has the strictest environmental controls of any place on the planet. And thus far, I am still not convinced that 1. Global warming is FACT, 2. That it is necessarily a bad thing, 3. We are causing it by our actions. During the 1970s scientists and "experts" said that by the first quarter of the 21st century we would be witnessing an oncoming ice age. Now they say it's a warming trend. Which is it? Meteorologists can't even accurately forecast the weather more than 5 days in advance, so how the hell can climatologists tell us what it's going to be in 10 years? It's ridiculous. I encourage you to go to www.junkscience.com. I think you would find it enlightening.
 
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619. Re: This War Sep 16, 2001, 17:52 anon@12.92
 
And I shall repeat again....USA....USA....USA....lets get those mother fuckers...  
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618. Re: This War Sep 16, 2001, 17:46 anon@12.92
 
Before I thought it would be ridiculous to join the army and stuff..but....im willing to sign up this time to kick some ass...U..S...fuckin A...  
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617. Re: This War Sep 16, 2001, 17:07 anon@62.30
 
#616, I have looked it up (it means tragedy / failure and I agree with you!)....this whole thread has become a waste of time arguing semantics, politics and seven shades of BS.

People died needlessly on the 11th, YES, that is a disaster, but not in the sense of a hurricane or comet strike or earthquake (which is how some news media are starting to report this)the point I was trying to make was not to forget that the terrible events on the 11th was calculated murder.

People are wasting their time being trolls on this thread, arguing and generally missing the whole fucking point, it's time the thread was closed - we should be paying our respects - something by and large this thread stopped doing a couple of days ago.
 
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616. Re: This War Sep 16, 2001, 16:47 anon@65.92
 
Of course this is a disaster. Look it up. You are missing the point and wasting your time arguing that it is harmful to call it one.  
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615. Re: This War Sep 16, 2001, 15:18 anon@62.30
 
well stated #614, this isn't a disaster by any means, I've heard the reporters describe the events of the 11th as disaster several times today, it isn't, it's murder, pure and simple and those butchers who commited the crime will pay.  
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