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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

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654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 7.
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534. No subject Sep 14, 2001, 03:07 anon@63.202
 
Subject: [STOP_CHOGM] Lies about Palestinian celebrations
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:38:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lisa Farrell <lisafaa@yahoo.com>

Please pass far and wide. Not sure where this message originated, but it
came through the USAS (United Students Against Sweatshops) website...

Subject: [usas] Fwd: Palestinians Celebrating?

Please read the letter below from a Palestinian student. How is
everyone handling this? Progressive Students for Justice, Fordham's
usas affiliate, had an emergency meeting to talk and see what we could
do. About a 1,000 students gave blood today. We discussed forming an
emergency committee to help mobilize other campus groups and students to
do whatever we can to support the victims and families/friends of
victims, and prevent hostility to Arab students. We don't know
specifically what we can do yet.

From: MATHIEZ@fordham.edu
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:01 pm
Subject: [iipes01] Vivian

I hope and pray that your family, friends, and co-workers are all safe.
This e-mail is from a friend of mine in Palestine. I think that her
message is important for us to hear- especially in reguards to the
withdrawal of Isreali soliders in Jenin. As you all know, this summer I
studied with students in the Middle East and Balkans. They are all VERY
supportive and concerned--Jewishs, Arabs -- everyone. My prayer are
with you all.

Peace

Cristin


my dear friends ,

I express to you ,my american friends, my profound sorrow and my
closeness in prayer for all victims at this horrible and tragic moment.i
really feel sorry for all the world,i feel sorry for us,HUMAN beings.
we are not human any more,we are animals!!!! i feel outraged and angry
for this aggression against humanity!!!it is really horrible,the world
that we are living in!!!! it is a jungle where animals eat each other
for survival!!! under the bombing of the bethlehem Area,palestinains
were stuck in front of TV ,watching the horrible inhuman attack while
hearing the bombs falling around! how would they behave??? Palestinians
are confused and desperate ...Palestinains are not celebrating the death
of people....i have tears in my eyes now because of the horrible image
you are getting from news!!! it is wrong...i am begging you, my friends,
not to believe what you see......Palestinians were celebrating the
withdrawal of the Israeli army from the palestinian city,jenin!!! that
was it! we are being attacked every day...my Best friends' house was
bombard at two minutes from where i stay at bethlehem....believe me,i
don't want to talk about my suffering as much as i want to talk about
the suffering of all human beings around the globe of whom we don't know
very well....!!!!!!! Palestinian groups denounced and condemned the
attack ...reminding you that our struggle is against Occupation and
slavery. America, as a super power, has duties toward weak nations
asking for its help. WAKE UP americans!!!!we need your help!!! the
oppressed,the hungry,the poor in this world are crying out for help!!!!
President Bush ended his speech last night:::'''None of us will ever
forget this day, yet we go forward to defend freedom and all that is
good and just in our world"""" i hope so! hey my friends, i am with you
...we are together in spirit and soul.....we share same values,we share
the same struggle ....

i love you and pray for you.

vivian

=====
Lisa Farrell

Now's a good time to fight!
lisafaa@yahoo.com
http://www.workerspower.com

--
THE RED THREAD: http://redthread.cjb.net


--- from list aut-op-sy@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
 
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533. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 14, 2001, 01:27 anon@66.136
 
"...you're trying to say we do it out of the goodness of our hearts. I'll agree that most Americans don't have a problem with it for that very reason, they want to help. However, our government is the one that decides what's in our interests and where we will send money, military hardware, humanitarian aid, etc."

Give me a break; don't pretend that the American people don't have any power by blaming the "government". Don't be naive enough to think that the "government" will do what they feel like when they feel like. They would not take action without the support of its people. The fact of the matter is WE CAN'T HELP EVERYBODY IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD!!! Wake up!!! That is why the U.S. has so many individual non-profit (SUCCESSFUL) organizations where Americans help others in need. Each individual needs to take responsibility for his/her action and not blame everybody else because the world is not perfect.

If you see atrocities, help! Donate money to your most important causes. Write to your Congress People, to your President, to your State Representatives. VOTE! Enlist with the Peace Corps; help out with the Red Cross. If you're just sitting in your comfortable home, stuffing your face, playing games on your nice computer, and just sitting on your high horse bitching about it, you need to just shut up.

It's as simple as saying NO to day-to-day cruelty. If you see a man abusing a woman, turn him in. If you see parents abusing children, turn them in. If you see citizens abusing the system (welfare fraud, frivolous lawsuits, etc.), work up the nerve to do something about it! Complacency is an ugly thing and it's even uglier when the people wearing it bitch about everything that's wrong in the world but don't want to do a damned thing about it.

 
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532. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 14, 2001, 01:09 anon@24.162
 
If the U.S. government stays out of conflict outside the U.S., they're called heartless. If they choose to help out, they're called opportunistic.

Maybe if the US government wasn't always playing countries off against each other and training and arming various factions, they might get some sympathy. We are helping to fuel wars. We are funding destruction. Why are we so shocked and surprised when it ends up in our own lap?
 
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531. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 14, 2001, 01:01 anon@24.162
 
However, the truth is, that's impossible so they end up choosing the cause that makes the most sense - and that means strategic to economic and security issues.

I think that was my point, except you're trying to say we do it out of the goodness of our hearts. I'll agree that most Americans don't have a problem with it for that very reason, they want to help. However, our government is the one that decides what's in our interests and where we will send money, military hardware, humanitarian aid, etc. They don't do it because there is need. They do it because there is opportunity. They choose who to ignore and who to support depending on how it will improve our influence in the region, not on who needs it the most or any other such factor. If you think otherwise, you aren't really paying much attention. Most of the real reasons and our real actions are classified. If we're lucky we'll find out what they are through the Freedom of Information Act in about 30 years.
 
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530. Re: To set a Precident Sep 13, 2001, 23:35 anon@66.136
 
"When you see RIOTS, EARTHQUAKES, MUDSLIDES, etc. throughout the U.S., you don't see money pouring in to help the States in need"

bClarification: I mean NON-US money.b
 
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529. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 23:32 anon@66.136
 
"This is why so many countries have gotten shafted by the US in times of need. Heinous crimes against humanity have been commited in Afghanistan by the Taliban regime... and need I even mention what's been happening in Africa? Not to mention, Eastern Europe was pretty much ignored after WW2 (with Germany favored for aid over some close allies.)"

You forget that there are ALOT of Americans who are tunneling MILLIONS of U.S. dollars to help victims escape the Taliban regime. There are countless U.S. organizations who send BILLIONS to Africa for aide in food/water/medicine/etc. You also forget the countless U.S. non-profit organizations who go to communist countries to help with medical aide and food (even through threat of physical harm).

When you see RIOTS, EARTHQUAKES, MUDSLIDES, etc. throughout the U.S., you don't see money pouring in to help the States in need. Some States go bankrupt due to some of the catastrophies. Nevertheless, the U.S. still gets shafted by so many people. If the U.S. government stays out of conflict outside the U.S., they're called heartless. If they choose to help out, they're called opportunistic. It's a no win situation. Lend a helping hand and the U.S. is screwed. Mind your own business and the U.S. is screwed.

It's F***** up!
 
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528. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 23:20 anon@134.197
 
"However, the truth is, that's impossible so they end up choosing the cause that makes the most sense - and that means strategic to economic and security issues."

This is why so many countries have gotten shafted by the US in times of need.

Heinous crimes against humanity have been commited in Afghanistan by the Taliban regime... and need I even mention what's been happening in Africa? Not to mention, Eastern Europe was pretty much ignored after WW2 (with Germany favored for aid over some close allies.) Yeah, it would've been very costly to go head to head with Russia, but a better approach could have been taken then "okay, we don't care about these people, so take them."

You have to remember that we're pelted with the bad fruit we give people, and there's no surprise in that.
 
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527. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 23:19 anon@66.136
 
{i}"It was not aimed at allies, it was aimed at the U.S. and its citizens - it hit its mark."
Not really... there were many people of many nationalities that were killed or are missing in the world trade center. Watch TV. Japanese, Germans, British, you name it. More than just Americans.{/i}

IT WAS aimed at the U.S. and its citizens! The fact that non-U.S. citizens were victims happens to be a side note to these terrorists. That's what makes them so evil. They don't care! They don't care that 1. innocent civilians are being slaughtered 2. a world full of people share this country, this planet, this space.

The way the terrorists probably see it, if they could, they would probably destroy this entire planet if they thought it was the only way to destroy the U.S. As long as their agenda is accomplished, as long as they feel they can hurt Americans, they don't care who else gets hurt. If these types of people ever destroyed America, you know there would be more victims. They wouldn't stop. They'd continue destroying everyone who did not see it their way, be it democratic countries, communist countries, socialist countries, whoever. Look at Afghanistan and see what they're doing to their own people, to their own mothers and daughters. They're not happy trying to live in peace, being tolerant of people's differences, they want to destroy everything that is not to their approval, to their liking, and that includes their own people.
 
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526. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 23:11 JediLuke
 
Despite how many nationalities were actually in the building, the World Trade Center is a (the?) symbol of US capitalism, and it was definately a blow against America as opposed to capitalism in general.

Granted, but my point was, it's not as though solely the USA was affected by this... many other countries were, both indirectly and very directly.

~Jedi

 
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525. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 23:09 indiv
 
Not really... there were many people of many nationalities that were killed or are missing in the world trade center. Watch TV. Japanese, Germans, British, you name it. More than just Americans.

Despite how many nationalities were actually in the building, the World Trade Center is a (the?) symbol of US capitalism, and it was definately a blow against America as opposed to capitalism in general.

The thing that really gets me is what if they had crashed into the White House, like they were allegedly planning to do? I don't know if it's really the truth if they were planning it, but could you imagine America without the White House today? I can't. Well regardless, the targets they did sucessfully hit were tragic enough.

 
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524. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 23:05 anon@66.136
 
[i]Not countries defending democracy really. We support countries that we either put in power or that we have some control or leverage over. It's all about oil over there, otherwise we wouldn't even be there.[/i]

That's the cynical thing that skeptics likes to tout. If you speak to American citizens (who pay their taxes and send contributions to other countries - via red cross or other charitable organizations), it's not about the oil or power or control. It's about doing the right thing. It's about defending and helping people who don't want to live in a communist regime or be taken over by their neighbors through military force. In the Gulf you have the Kuwaiti people who do not want to have their way of life taken away by hostile neighbors so they ask allies for assistance. In Vietnam you have a portion of its people who do not want communism (the communists help those who want communism and the allies help the ones who want democracy). In Korea you have a race who have been attacked by the Japanese then the Chinese and become split between communisms and democracy in a similar fashion - the communists support North Korea and the allies support South Korea.

If there was a never ending supply of money, people didnt' die, etc., etc., I'm sure the U.S. would help more countries. However, the truth is, that's impossible so they end up choosing the cause that makes the most sense - and that means strategic to economic and security issues.

I'm not aware that ANY U.S. State or its people would refuse assistance in times of need. I doubt that New York City residents would say no to cash aide, free medical supplies, or such. Also, a lot of Americans don't wait for countries in need to ask for assistance... they just organize and donate - be it via red cross, salvation army, missionary groups, etc. Most of them give a rats ass about oil, power, control or leverage.
 
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523. Re: MS Flight Sim 2000 Sep 13, 2001, 23:03 indiv
 
I'd like to say that I am not surprised, although somewhat offended that of all things the news is all-but-almost-blaming-in-at-least-some-part Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000.

I saw that report on NBC. The thing that struck me the most about it was that the computer they were playing it on was getting like 3 frames per second. It was pathetic!

Stories like this, where they show a professional pilot recreating the disaster with MS Flight Sim, are what happens when there's 24 hour media coverage of an event that only has new information to report every 7 or 8 hours (or longer). The rest of the time is filler stuff that's usually fluff pieces unless they're doing a recap or repeating earlier broadcasts.

 
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522. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 22:53 JediLuke
 
It was not aimed at allies, it was aimed at the U.S. and its citizens - it hit its mark.

Not really... there were many people of many nationalities that were killed or are missing in the world trade center. Watch TV. Japanese, Germans, British, you name it. More than just Americans.

~Jedi

This comment was edited on Sep 13, 23:02.
 
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521. Re: DO NOT HARASS INNOCENT PEOPLE Sep 13, 2001, 22:50 DigitalSin
 
You are a True American. This is the spirit in which our country was founded. People bashing the US take note, and compare this to many other countries around the world. Would you find this same sentiment in them? Probably not.


 
====================
You wouldn't care what people thought of you if you realized how seldom they do
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520. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 22:47 anon@24.162
 
(i.e. The Gulf, Vietnam, Korea, WWI & WWII) are not U.S. aide but aide towards the countries who are trying to defend democracy.

Not countries defending democracy really. We support countries that we either put in power or that we have some control or leverage over. It's all about oil over there, otherwise we wouldn't even be there.
 
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519. Bottom Line Sep 13, 2001, 22:43 anon@24.162
 
What I'm getting from most of the people here is that what everything boils down to is that we don't give a damn what we've done to the rest of the world. We have the power and we'll do whatever we damn well please. If anyone gets in our way, we'll either deal with them ourselves, or more likely we'll simply give money and weapons to one of their enemies to deal with them for us. In the end though, if anyone fights back, we'll kick the crap out of them and go on doing as we please. It's not about wrong or right. It's about who has the power.  
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518. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 22:28 anon@203.79
 
I think the reason that no countries come to usa with aide, is that it generally doesn't need it. Money, the country has abundances, food the same, military supplies, well, I dont even need to comment on this, medical supplies, the country has plenty. If a disaster like this was to happen in Britain today for instance, it would not require aide. The same with Germany, Sweden, France, most of the larger European countries. Australia would be in the same situation. If the disaster was great enough, then medical aide would probably be required, but for a disaster of magnitude that the USA has endured in the last few decades, it would not.

And it also comes down to another thing... does the US government actually request assistance? I'm not sure if they do so can't make a firm comment, but I get the impression that the government has enough faith in their capabilities that they do not request it, and if it is offered, they probably kindly decline.
 
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517. Re: To all who hate Americans... Sep 13, 2001, 21:45 anon@66.136
 
Regarding post #509...

You have to take into consideration that the person who wrote that statement did so in the 1970's (as the original poster stated). However, the examples you've brought forth as assistance to the U.S. (i.e. The Gulf, Vietnam, Korea, WWI & WWII) are not U.S. aide but aide towards the countries who are trying to defend democracy.

It's unfortunate but every time the U.S. takes a stand to defend or support democracy in the world, it is seen as a U.S. thing rather than a union of free countries... and the U.S. ends up having to pay for it both financially and as targets of hatred from other nations.

I always get goose bumps when I see the British and other countries stand by their allies during world crisis because it's what the U.S. would do and it's what friends/allies do.

I think the point that was being made about lack of U.S. aide was just that... lack of "U.S.A." aide. It's rare that we see other countries sending supplies and assistance during Riots, Earthquakes, Fires, Mudslides, and other tragedies. What happened on 9/11/01 is a U.S. tragedy. It was not aimed at allies, it was aimed at the U.S. and its citizens - it hit its mark.

The U.S. government and its citizens are some of the most generous people in the world and people often forget that. Be it natural disasters, hunger aide, aide with medication for diseases, or even war, the U.S. and its citizens are there with their money and sympathies. People often forget that.

The U.S. won't stop helping its allies or stop defending democracy at home or abroad. However, what happened this week was a direct attack against the U.S. and democracy. Hopefully the rest of the civil world will see this and come to its allies aide, in spirit, finance, and military support.
 
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516. MS Flight Sim 2000 Sep 13, 2001, 21:11 Ewigekraft23
 
You know a thread is slowing down when you've posted the last three messages. Anyway, I thought this would interest a lot of people, considering this is a gaming site.

I'd like to say that I am not surprised, although somewhat offended that of all things the news is all-but-almost-blaming-in-at-least-some-part Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000. Now I'm not a huge fan of the game, but every time something happens in the world does the media have to find some way to blame video games? "For just $70 you can buy this game which includes high detail simulations of many cities, including New York City. For just another $30 you can buy this, a program that adds to the simulator a detailed model of an American Airlines Boeing 767. We had a licensed pilot in our building try out the software." "This program is not enough to actually learn how to fly the plane, but it might be good for a practice run like we just did here." "And even if this program was not enough, the manual that comes with it might be. Within the xx page manual for the simulator lies coordinates for many major world landmarks, the World Trade Center included among them." Yeah...right.

That's what I got of NBC news on the tv, here is an article also from NBC:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/628194.asp#BODY

Go read the article. If for some reason the link doesn't work post it on here and I'll put up a saved copy of the article.
 
--Ewigekraft23
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515. Re: Why this is and who we think we are (2) Sep 13, 2001, 20:22 Ewigekraft23
 
I'm glad you are an intellectual, and although I don't agree with your tactics in getting us to come out and talk about it, but nonetheless I am glad you did.  
--Ewigekraft23
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