Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources

There's a new article on The Escapist defending for their recent Star Citizen article from accusations that some of the anonymous quotes in their story about turmoil at the developer of the space game were lifted from unverified posts on Glassdoor, rather than comments made directly to the site from vetted current and former Cloud Imperium employees. While continuing to protect the identities of their sources, they offer a detailed timeline of the interactions with all the individuals quoted in the story, while also commenting on the dangers and pitfalls of anonymous sources. They also address allegations that this is all spurred by Derek Smart, saying: "To be clear on further allegations: None of our sources were Derek Smart and we did not get our information from Glassdoor. However, we do know that a couple sources did post on Glassdoor after talking to Lizzy."
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118.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 5, 2015, 17:06
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 5, 2015, 17:06
Oct 5, 2015, 17:06
 
in space noone can here you threaten a lawsuit

star citizen lawsuits and journalism ethics
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them
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117.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 5, 2015, 14:52
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 5, 2015, 14:52
Oct 5, 2015, 14:52
 
nin wrote on Oct 5, 2015, 08:45:
I fail to understand why people choose to believe in what a person says without any proof to back it up.

I don't give a fuck about the narcissist, but the lack of progress and an actual product is all people need to have doubt on the products success.


Definitely. That's my line of thinking as well.
It is one thing to be concerned/skeptic or whatever regarding the project. It is another to accuse CIG of committing a crime.

By the end of this year, CIG needs to have something more substantial to show. The game has been in development for 3 years.

I do understand and agree that some people expected the game to be released sooner rather then later.
But I also prefer a delayed game than a rushed one. Even if it takes a couple more years to release. After all most AAA games these days do take 4-5 years to make.

But obviously if no progress is shown people will get concerned.
I think people are willing to wait for a good product as long as they can show they're progressing at a good pace.

And that is the issue right now. Many of the components suffered delays.
So yes, I share the same opinion. I expect more results.
But I'm also willing to give them a chance to do it right as long as they can show decent progress.

What I won't do is accuse them of something without proof.

116.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 5, 2015, 08:45
nin
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 5, 2015, 08:45
Oct 5, 2015, 08:45
nin
 
I fail to understand why people choose to believe in what a person says without any proof to back it up.

I don't give a fuck about the narcissist, but the lack of progress and an actual product is all people need to have doubt on the products success.

115.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 5, 2015, 08:11
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 5, 2015, 08:11
Oct 5, 2015, 08:11
 
Cant wait for the legal ramifications to proceed from this, and I hope it all tracks back to DS.

Typically, the elements of a cause of action for defamation include:

A false and defamatory statement concerning another;

The unprivileged publication of the statement to a third party (that is, somebody other than the person defamed by the statement);

If the defamatory matter is of public concern, fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher; and
Damage to the plaintiff.

Most jurisdictions also recognize "per se" defamation, where the allegations are presumed to cause damage to the plaintiff.

Typically, the following may consititute defamation per se:

Attacks on a person's professional character or standing;
Allegations that the person has committed a crime of moral turpitude;

While actions for defamation have their roots in common law, most jurisdictions have now enacted statutes which modify the common law. They may change the elements of the cause of action, limit when an action may be filed, or modify the defenses to an action for defamation. Some may even require that the defendant be given an opportunity to apologize before the plaintiff can seek non-economic damages.

114.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 5, 2015, 02:57
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 5, 2015, 02:57
Oct 5, 2015, 02:57
 
Unbeliveble.

Loads of comments with nothing more than opinions with little to no documentation.

I fail to understand why people choose to believe in what a person says without any proof to back it up.

The only thing I see is people predicting failure because CIG missed the release schedule. Or predicting success because they have loads of money.

As if it was possible to predict success or failure without a closer look at the company.

AC Unity was released in an extremely poor state and no one was able to predict its failure. So much so that the game actually sold well due to its pre orders.

And then we have people analysing what Derek or CIG have written.
What is there to analyse if no one posts actual evidence?

One example of how easily people are deceived. Does anyone here knows how people found out that Sandi is Chris wife?
Because Sandi was introduced to one of Chris friends in the initial campaign livestream. It wasnt a question of being a secret. They simply wanted to keep their personal life private. In fact Chris has never shown any of his children pictures.

This was 3 years ago. Why is this so relevant now? Why didn't people complain back then?

Did they want to keep it a secret or did they wanted to keep it private?
Why is it then that people don't have an issue with Erin Roberts. He is Chris brother and was given a top level position in the company. He,unlike Sandi, wasn't even there from the start. Yet somehow few people have issues with Erin.

Someone here claims Sandi funded her movie with company money.
So can you please share with us the expense report stating that X amount of dollars have been spent in the production of Sandi's short?

And regarding delays or lack of content.
Sure, we expect more. I wont wait for ever. But can I really predict failure? Based on what experience? Why is it that it is acceptable if GTA V takes 5 years to develop and we claim SC will fail in its 3rd development year?

As for Derek. The best he could do in one of his replies to someone asking for irrefutable evidence that Sandi is not qualified for her position was : "She does not. Stop it"

So I'll ask again. Where is the evidence Derek? Post the documentation you have proving Sandi has lied regarding her credentials. So far you only accuse people abd show no evidence.

I obviously won't support a developer that is commiting a crime. But without evidence it is one person word vs the other.

I don't get it. Is it that hard to scan documents and post it for everyone to see?
So many conspiracy theories for what?

I will support anyone that can show me irrefutable evidence. As simple as that.

113.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 23:38
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 23:38
Oct 4, 2015, 23:38
 
More terrifying than the idea of Chris Roberts as an expert con-artist with the perfect scheme is the idea that he actually believes, 100%, zero doubt, every statement that he makes. That he believed every single deadline put forward would be met, that he believed each and every budget projection was correct, and that he believes, actively, that if anything goes wrong and Star Citizen tanks, it is absolutely and completely the fault of Derek Smart and those who have sided with him. And you know why that's terrifying?

Because that means that he would have to believe that Star Citizen is some sort of godsend, which would make him some sort of digital-age messiah. It would mean that his entire world view is based around the notion that his GAME is somehow more important than the lives of the people who work for him, more important than a free press, more important than the universal human right to free will. That if we would just stop listening to the media and the haters, we'd all realize just how absolutely amazing and life-changing his creation is, and how it would make all of our lives better for having it.

We kid about the die-hard fans of Star Citizen being a cult, but it's looking more and more like we've got a mentally unstable man with loads of money and an army of cultists, ready to try to force his views down our throats. Where does he go, if and when Star Citizen tanks? And how many people are truly convinced that he's the Truth and the Way?
112.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 22:20
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 22:20
Oct 4, 2015, 22:20
 
dsmart wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 21:56:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 21:15:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 18:19:
What needs to be proven? Everyone knows. It wasn't a secret.



They were obviously trying to keep it secret, but whatever.

Yes they were.

btw if you haven't read this analysis yet of CR's letter, you should.

Wow, they really put some time into that. But yeah, that's a lot of what I got out of CR's letter. It's kind of amazing that he put all that out there to be picked apart like this. Also, CR claimed he was up until 5AM writing it. That's the worst time to be responding to something like this. You're just not thinking coherently.

Mostly, I just wanted him to say, "This is bullshit, we're on track, and here's the proof." Unfortunately, he wrote nothing that inspired any confidence in me.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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111.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 22:18
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 22:18
Oct 4, 2015, 22:18
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 21:15:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 18:19:
What needs to be proven? Everyone knows. It wasn't a secret.



They were obviously trying to keep it secret, but whatever.

When that post on twitter was done it was no longer a secret. There is no excuse for the doxing of their little girl.

110.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 21:56
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 21:56
Oct 4, 2015, 21:56
 
I can't see any possible ending which does not involve at least one horrible person/company being smacked around. Cool.

Maybe Zero Punctuation should use this as a sign to pull a Jimquisition and jump ship. I can't think of anything else on that site which would be worth saving.
109.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 21:56
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 21:56
Oct 4, 2015, 21:56
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 21:15:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 18:19:
What needs to be proven? Everyone knows. It wasn't a secret.



They were obviously trying to keep it secret, but whatever.

Yes they were.

btw if you haven't read this analysis yet of CR's letter, you should.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them
Avatar 9141
108.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 21:15
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 21:15
Oct 4, 2015, 21:15
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 18:19:
What needs to be proven? Everyone knows. It wasn't a secret.



They were obviously trying to keep it secret, but whatever.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
107.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 21:14
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 21:14
Oct 4, 2015, 21:14
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 16:17:
jdreyer you saw this? Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

I think someone posted it earlier, but I don't follow every single line related to this drama. In short, CIG is threatening Escapist with legal action if they don't comply by end of day Monday.

After the letter to Escapist, scroll down, and they talk about Bandit and Liz and who they are and particularly the Bandit's history of activity. This leads to the info about the doxing.


Thanks. I saw CR's original letter, but not the legal action update. Interesting. Unfortunately, it only hurts CIG/RSI if they have to divert money to legal fees, and going after the press is usually a losing proposition.

All of that being said, the drama is not really that interesting to me. The numbers are, as I just posted and have been posting. Given the glacial pace of development, it's hard to see how they'll be able to deliver all that has been promised before running out of funds.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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106.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 21:06
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 21:06
Oct 4, 2015, 21:06
 
Tumbler wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 17:06:
Really? They've raised $90M, and currently average about $2M a month on income while burning (conservatively) $3M per month. While they haven't been spending that much the entire time, they've been probably going through that much the last 2 years, which is around $72M spent, plus whatever they spent the first year ($10M? 15M?) while they ramped up. I'm not sure how they keep things up for the number of years they'll need to finish this project, but I'm all ears.

You don't know what they are spending. You don't know what they've spent. You can guess and you're welcome to but the things we do know are that their income year over year continues to increase and thats the sign of a healthy business despite what Mr. Smart tells you.

When income coming into the project slows or stops that is a problem. It hasn't happened yet. I know it's hard but you guys just have to be patient. There is no guarantee that this thing will fail despite what you've been told. You might just end up disappointed after waiting all this time and you'll probably feel awful having spent so much time waiting...but that is the risk you're taking. You might just end up with nothing...to be mad about.

Mr. Smart has told me nothing. I've come to my conclusions based on my own calculations derived from Star Citizen's funding documentation and the estimates of what it costs to run a software company, something I know a bit about since I actually work for a software company and have had access to our P and L for the past several years. No, I don't know their exact outlay, but I've estimated pretty closely. I'm not just pulling numbers out of my ass. And they've absolutely spent $70-80M so far based on time worked and employee counts, are currently bringing in about $1M less a month than they are spending, and are still many years from finishing.

You're right though, they could next week say, "Surprise! We've actually completed 50 of the promised 100 systems for the PU!" and "Surprise! Squadron 42 will ship on Novemeber 15!" and I would be quite relieved. Somehow I don't think that will happen. I am not guaranteeing they will fail, but I think it's getting increasingly likely, and I'd like to see them address it in some concrete way. Instead CR says, "We're on track! We have more demos coming out!" That doesn't inspire confidence.

If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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105.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 18:19
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 18:19
Oct 4, 2015, 18:19
 
dsmart wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 18:10:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 15:44:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 15:04:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 06:58:
Just gotta add, as I just found out, that the whole doxing of Chris's young daughter by these fucking lunatics...reprehensible.


Do we have a link showing that? The first time I heard about it was when Roberts mentioned it in his Escapist rebuttal, and DS denies he did it.

To save you from giving clicks to DSmarts blog and trying to dig through his cesspool... https://twitter.com/istheguy/status/648361204226891776


And that's the tweet that I retweeted. This person was doing his own digging in order to prove that Sandi and Chris was married

What needs to be proven? Everyone knows. It wasn't a secret.


104.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 18:10
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 18:10
Oct 4, 2015, 18:10
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 15:44:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 15:04:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 06:58:
Just gotta add, as I just found out, that the whole doxing of Chris's young daughter by these fucking lunatics...reprehensible.


Do we have a link showing that? The first time I heard about it was when Roberts mentioned it in his Escapist rebuttal, and DS denies he did it.

To save you from giving clicks to DSmarts blog and trying to dig through his cesspool... https://twitter.com/istheguy/status/648361204226891776


And that's the tweet that I retweeted. This person was doing his own digging in order to prove that Sandi and Chris was married
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them
Avatar 9141
103.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 17:06
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 17:06
Oct 4, 2015, 17:06
 
Really? They've raised $90M, and currently average about $2M a month on income while burning (conservatively) $3M per month. While they haven't been spending that much the entire time, they've been probably going through that much the last 2 years, which is around $72M spent, plus whatever they spent the first year ($10M? 15M?) while they ramped up. I'm not sure how they keep things up for the number of years they'll need to finish this project, but I'm all ears.

You don't know what they are spending. You don't know what they've spent. You can guess and you're welcome to but the things we do know are that their income year over year continues to increase and thats the sign of a healthy business despite what Mr. Smart tells you.

When income coming into the project slows or stops that is a problem. It hasn't happened yet. I know it's hard but you guys just have to be patient. There is no guarantee that this thing will fail despite what you've been told. You might just end up disappointed after waiting all this time and you'll probably feel awful having spent so much time waiting...but that is the risk you're taking. You might just end up with nothing...to be mad about.
102.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 16:17
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 16:17
Oct 4, 2015, 16:17
 
jdreyer you saw this? Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

I think someone posted it earlier, but I don't follow every single line related to this drama. In short, CIG is threatening Escapist with legal action if they don't comply by end of day Monday.

After the letter to Escapist, scroll down, and they talk about Bandit and Liz and who they are and particularly the Bandit's history of activity. This leads to the info about the doxing.

101.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 15:55
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 15:55
Oct 4, 2015, 15:55
 
Tumbler wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 15:35:
Eirikrautha wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 10:59:

So much concern trolling. Let's deal with "facts" then, shall we?

The fact is that CRI has produced nothing except a few tech demos, and way later than original projected dates. Anything else is speculation.

We know that CR himself has increased the scope of the project (ships, features, etc.) as more revenue has been incoming (this is based on his own statements).

We know that CRI has reworked numerous portions of the game, not based on design documents, but on the changing "visions" of CR and others (the helmet UI system, etc.). Both presently employed, named employees and CR himself have related this.

We know that CRI has built or created a number of resources instead of renting them (example: the motion capture studio). This is almost always less cost-effective than renting such facilities. The usual economically feasible reasons for such expenditures are because CRI plans to use them on future projects (meaning this money is being spent on something other than SC) or because they will be needed throughout the production process, suggesting that there is a high likelihood that these resources are not set in stone by design. Regardless of the reason, when know that CRI built when it could have rented. We know this because CR said so.

We know that Chris Roberts has a history in this industry of wandering design, so much so that his previous company ran out of money and had to be bought by Microsoft in order for his last game to be released. This is historical fact.

The above first sentences of each paragraph are statements of fact. Whether or not you agree with my interpretations of them, they are based totally on CR and CRI's own declarations. You may choose to ignore these facts. But Occam's Razor suggests that history is repeating itself, and any other assumption here requires stretching beyond the obvious facts.

I don't think history has given CR an ever increasing budget as the project progress', so we are in uncharted waters there. If you're saying that he's well on his way to running out of money then I'd say you're a fool because he keeps ending each year with vastly more money than he started with. That claim makes no sense. They have income coming in each month through ship sales, merchandise sales and new backers coming on board all the time. I was a subscriber until recently dropping $10 a month for a handful of items that were all digital and I recently bought a coffee mug from them and am always eager to look at new items they offer for sale.

Running out of money isn't a problem they face currently.

Really? They've raised $90M, and currently average about $2M a month on income while burning (conservatively) $3M per month. While they haven't been spending that much the entire time, they've been probably going through that much the last 2 years, which is around $72M spent, plus whatever they spent the first year ($10M? 15M?) while they ramped up. I'm not sure how they keep things up for the number of years they'll need to finish this project, but I'm all ears.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
100.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 15:44
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 15:44
Oct 4, 2015, 15:44
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 15:04:
Krovven wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 06:58:
Just gotta add, as I just found out, that the whole doxing of Chris's young daughter by these fucking lunatics...reprehensible.


Do we have a link showing that? The first time I heard about it was when Roberts mentioned it in his Escapist rebuttal, and DS denies he did it.

To save you from giving clicks to DSmarts blog and trying to dig through his cesspool... https://twitter.com/istheguy/status/648361204226891776

99.
 
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources
Oct 4, 2015, 15:35
99.
Re: Escapist Defends Star Citizen Sources Oct 4, 2015, 15:35
Oct 4, 2015, 15:35
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Oct 4, 2015, 10:59:

So much concern trolling. Let's deal with "facts" then, shall we?

The fact is that CRI has produced nothing except a few tech demos, and way later than original projected dates. Anything else is speculation.

We know that CR himself has increased the scope of the project (ships, features, etc.) as more revenue has been incoming (this is based on his own statements).

We know that CRI has reworked numerous portions of the game, not based on design documents, but on the changing "visions" of CR and others (the helmet UI system, etc.). Both presently employed, named employees and CR himself have related this.

We know that CRI has built or created a number of resources instead of renting them (example: the motion capture studio). This is almost always less cost-effective than renting such facilities. The usual economically feasible reasons for such expenditures are because CRI plans to use them on future projects (meaning this money is being spent on something other than SC) or because they will be needed throughout the production process, suggesting that there is a high likelihood that these resources are not set in stone by design. Regardless of the reason, when know that CRI built when it could have rented. We know this because CR said so.

We know that Chris Roberts has a history in this industry of wandering design, so much so that his previous company ran out of money and had to be bought by Microsoft in order for his last game to be released. This is historical fact.

The above first sentences of each paragraph are statements of fact. Whether or not you agree with my interpretations of them, they are based totally on CR and CRI's own declarations. You may choose to ignore these facts. But Occam's Razor suggests that history is repeating itself, and any other assumption here requires stretching beyond the obvious facts.

I don't think history has given CR an ever increasing budget as the project progress', so we are in uncharted waters there. If you're saying that he's well on his way to running out of money then I'd say you're a fool because he keeps ending each year with vastly more money than he started with. That claim makes no sense. They have income coming in each month through ship sales, merchandise sales and new backers coming on board all the time. I was a subscriber until recently dropping $10 a month for a handful of items that were all digital and I recently bought a coffee mug from them and am always eager to look at new items they offer for sale.

Running out of money isn't a problem they face currently.
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