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Mad Burger 3: Wild West. Splitman 2. Zombuddies. |
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SUV Crashes
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jimnms wrote on Nov 27, 2014, 01:22:
The link you posted is a pretty piss poor study. It is only taking data from one city, which is a high crime city to begin with. You still can't know that for sure if having a gun increases your chance of getting shot as all of these studies come to a false conclusion because they don't count for the unreported number of times a gun is used in self defense without being a shot being fired. I'd like to see one that takes into account the ~100,000 per year as reported by the NCVS plus the estimated unreported 500,000 by the CDC or the others at 1-2.5 million.
jdreyer wrote on Nov 26, 2014, 13:55:
I'm glad that worked out for Prez, but using a gun for self defense can increase your chance of getting shot as I mentioned in my last post.
Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 26, 2014, 09:59:It was a non sequiter. We weren't talking about cars and they have nothing to do with what we were discussing. Cancer kills more people than guns do too. Surprised you didn't bring that up.jdreyer wrote on Nov 26, 2014, 02:36:
Blah blah blah I'm going to completely ignore the fact that technology designed to move people actually kills more than twice as many people in the US as technology that is designed to kill people because it doesn't fit my agenda.
No matter how much you try to muddy the issue, the facts as they pertain to the US remain. Your anti-gun hysteria is just that, hysteria. It has no basis in reality and shows your absolute lack of understanding of firearms, their purpose and their use by rational people.
What you, and most anti-gun people, can never seem to wrap their head around is that crime will exist without legal gun ownership. Those who choose to commit violent crimes will do so regardless of what tools are at hand. Remove one and they'll simply pick another. It will not magically go down, no matter how hard you clutch your skirt or wring your hands.
Unless you've been in a situation where you've had to use a firearm to defend yourself, you're talking through your hat. Clearly Prez has, for example, even though he wishes it wasn't necessary but he understands the reality that criminal actors will act. I, too, have been in a situation where having a firearm on my hip didn't just save my life but also saved my father's and we were on our own property. I didn't feel like Rambo, actually I felt terrible after it was all said and done. Nevertheless, I'm glad I had the legal option of owning, carrying and using a firearm in self defense.
jimnms wrote on Nov 26, 2014, 08:19:
I've had these discussions so much I'm tired of it. I can find just as many studies and statistics that show the opposite. The reports I've read that conclude you are more likely to be killed by owning a gun tend to stack their numbers by lumping in gun suicides to the total gun deaths. This is dishonest because someone determined to commit suicide will find a way with or without a gun. After Australia's gun ban, suicide by gun obviously dropped, but the ban had absolutely no effect on the suicide rate because people turned to other methods.
What all of these "statistics" and studies fail to show is this:I'm glad that worked out for Prez, but using a gun for self defense can increase your chance of getting shot as I mentioned in my last post.Prez wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 22:37:
I had to pull my gun once because I saw a dangerous situation developing, and the sight of me doing so de-escalated what could have been a bad situation.
The USDOJ NCVS shows just over 100,000 reported cases of a guns used in self defense per year. The CDC estimates as many as 500,000 more go unreported. There other studies that attempt to estimate unreported uses of guns in self defense that range from 200,000 to 2.5 million times per year.Although many claimed cases of self defense are actually acts of intimidation. But, yeah, I'd really like to see that studied in greater detail. It's a hole in our knowledge, no pun intended.
Prez wrote on Nov 26, 2014, 07:29:Maybe, but only 24% of Americans own guns, mostly men. So most people actually don't own them. And you'd think that weaker, more vulnerable women would own them in greater numbers, were that the motivation.
In a country so flooded with firearms, it's like a cold war of sorts, where many feel compelled to own them just for a similar type of deterrence.
You will never see a statistic for how many home invasions or carjacking didn't happen because of the likelihood of the potential victim owning a firearm in high crime areas like Memphis.Like you say, it's a complex issue. I found this article that shows as gun ownership has increased, crime has decreased. Although correlation is not causation (reduction of environmental lead probably had a much greater effect on reducing crime, and video game popularity shows the same trend as against crime as gun ownership does) it's an interesting statistic that bears further much further study. Still, at an individual level, gun ownership imparts high risk:
I would LOVE to live in a society where there was no need or place for guns. Unfortunately that will never be the US.I lived in Japan for many years, and while there are many reasons why crime is so low there, low gun ownership is one of them. It was quite liberating to be able to walk around the streets in a 1.5m person city alone without worry, and see many young single women doing the same. I think we can agree that guns will be rife in the USA in our lifetimes and there's not much we can do about it.
jdreyer wrote on Nov 26, 2014, 02:36:
Blah blah blah I'm going to completely ignore the fact that technology designed to move people actually kills more than twice as many people in the US as technology that is designed to kill people because it doesn't fit my agenda.
jdreyer wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 22:24:
While I hear what Cutter and Jimnms are saying, and I understand the comfort gun ownership affords, the statistics are pretty damning:This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%."An armed society is a polite society" is also a myth. Guns, like internet anonymity, afford a level of protection to the owner such that they feel they can get away with more:motorists who had been in a vehicle in which there was a gun were more likely to engage in such forms of road rage.Does a gun in your home make you safer? Nope:626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of dutyGot that? Of 626 home shootings, only 13 were in self defense. The problem with guns and humans is that humans have poor judgement and make mistakes. And you can't often undo a mistake with a gun.
I could go on and on.
Prez wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 22:37:
I had to pull my gun once because I saw a dangerous situation developing, and the sight of me doing so de-escalated what could have been a bad situation.
Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 23:07:jdreyer wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 22:24:
I could go on and on.
Please do, I'm intrigued by your ability to cognitively disconnect from the fact that you are more likely to be killed in an auto accident than by a gun and that there are far more actual and real deaths per year involving automobiles than guns. Source 1. Source 2.
In fact, roughly averaging the numbers across the whole of the nation shows that you are twice as likely to be killed in an auto accident. Data shows that there are apparently a very large amount of gun owners whom are responsible, law abiding citizens whereas a large amount of automobile owners are mouth breathing idiots who can't stop eating, talking on the cell phone or turning around to scream at Junior long enough not to plow in to someone and kill them.
jdreyer wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 22:24:
I could go on and on.
This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%."An armed society is a polite society" is also a myth. Guns, like internet anonymity, afford a level of protection to the owner such that they feel they can get away with more:
motorists who had been in a vehicle in which there was a gun were more likely to engage in such forms of road rage.Does a gun in your home make you safer? Nope:
626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of dutyGot that? Of 626 home shootings, only 13 were in self defense. The problem with guns and humans is that humans have poor judgement and make mistakes. And you can't often undo a mistake with a gun.
jimnms wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 19:49:
I own guns, have a carry permit and carry when and where I can. When I get into a discussion with anti-gunners, they always assume people that carry guns want to shoot someone. I explain that I carry a gun for the same reason I have home owners insurance, car insurance and health insurance. I don't want to use it, but I have it in case I need it and just like insurance, I'd rather have it and never need to use it than not have it and wish I did.
Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 14:49:xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 25, 2014, 14:15:
The law states you must flee your own home. Unreal. No one has ever been charged, but it is on the books as basically saying if you can leave your home during an attack, you should.....
That is so fucked up, Bats. I'm glad I live in Texas. There's zero fucking snowball's chance in Hell that I am giving up my home, its contents, my pets and the people inside it to some crackhead invader because someone else thinks that would be a safer choice.