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36.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 25, 2014, 18:54
36.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 25, 2014, 18:54
Nov 25, 2014, 18:54
 
SimplyMonk wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 18:40:
That's fair. No sensible person thinks being "leery" of something is a crime either.

Thought crimes, perhaps.

Neither would I, but I think we have to be honest here and say the risk of a single tournament giving one of its participants a disqualification, not even a ban, is about as low risk as you can get to having detrimental effects on the freedom of expression as a whole.

No, I think there's far, far lower risks: personal warnings and requests. Appeals to reason from person to person. But even if this is a low risk and an overall justified action, I prefer that risk being recognized.

You have to admit though, he did phrase it in a way that, without some pretty involved context, is worthy of a great deal of ire from a community that is very sensitive right now about being perceived misogynistic. Due to his wording, I think some forgiveness can be allowed to those that react a little more spiritedly.

The context was obvious from the presentation, and even though the inclusion of context doesn't make what he said any less shitty, it also doesn't make it a rape threat. And the community doesn't speak with one voice - a sizable number of people (who I don't speak for either) also would regard concerns about 'being seen as misogynistic' as a non-concern.

As for forgiveness, funny thing about that - I think it has to be asked for. I'd be happy to forgive someone who sincerely said, 'Yeah, I flew off the handle.' But if forgiveness means 'we should allow it, because hey, they're upset and that means they get a free pass'? Less so.
35.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 25, 2014, 00:12
PHJF
 
35.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 25, 2014, 00:12
Nov 25, 2014, 00:12
 PHJF
 
A controversy over conduct unbecoming a pro gamer...

Does this mean esports are real now?!?
Steam + PSN: PHJF
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34.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 25, 2014, 00:06
Prez
 
34.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 25, 2014, 00:06
Nov 25, 2014, 00:06
 Prez
 
harlock wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 23:10:
im bout to rape this turkey sandwich

I am sorry but you have been banned from eating it for your unfortunate wording. Send that sandwich my way and I will eat it.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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33.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 23:10
33.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 23:10
Nov 24, 2014, 23:10
 
im bout to rape this turkey sandwich
32.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 19:37
Prez
 
32.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 19:37
Nov 24, 2014, 19:37
 Prez
 
I'm not going to weigh in on whether I think he deserved to get banned because it's not my tournament and not my rules. The tournament host thought he did, so that is enough for me. I will say on a common sense level he ought to choose his words more carefully especially when his opponent is female (which is awesome by the way. No women in gaming? Bah!). It was just an utterly stupid thing to say.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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31.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 18:40
31.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 18:40
Nov 24, 2014, 18:40
 
Yeahyeah Yeah wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 18:08:
And I'm still leery about demanding such a thing, even if I agree with 'em.

That's fair. No sensible person thinks being "leery" of something is a crime either. I'm leery whenever anyone says something is absolute. This whole "gravity" thing is only a theory. I cling to the ground because I love it.

But as for 'no one is saying he's committed a crime', you may want to double check with Cutter and Beamer.

Please refer to above emphasis.

Those risks may be acceptable, but I'm not going to pretend that there's no risk at all.

Neither would I, but I think we have to be honest here and say the risk of a single tournament giving one of its participants a disqualification, not even a ban, is about as low risk as you can get to having detrimental effects on the freedom of expression as a whole.

I'm also not going to pretend this guy seriously threatened to physically rape someone, and that strawman being trotted out doesn't speak well of the people going for it here.

You have to admit though, he did phrase it in a way that, without some pretty involved context, is worthy of a great deal of ire from a community that is very sensitive right now about being perceived misogynistic. Due to his wording, I think some forgiveness can be allowed to those that react a little more spiritedly.

Still, even though the discussion on this issue has sometimes lacked reason, the punishment he received was reasonable.

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 2014, 18:59.
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30.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 18:35
30.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 18:35
Nov 24, 2014, 18:35
 
I haven't seen an single person "demand" they kick him out.

But it's really nice that some jackass is defending the right to tell people you're going to rape them without being kicked out of Starcraft games.

This guy has the most insane, juvenile, privileged, and dumb priorities.
29.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 18:09
29.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 18:09
Nov 24, 2014, 18:09
 
There is an entire generation of newer (mostly fps) gamers that grew up making rape comments and yelling the n word over xbox live and other internet gaming services.

They now seek to defend their "right" to be complete jerk-off's because they no doubt desensitized themselves to the true meanings of these words while hearing (and often yelling them) all day long.

That shit might fly in random pickup games, but if you're putting yourself out there as a "pro" and getting sponsors for your "pro career" you should probably conduct yourself like a pro would, and perhaps even show a sliver of sportsmanship. Letting assholes like this off the hook because they think they changed the meaning by aggressively saying it over and over again to eachother on the internet in a different context is complete bullshit. If someone said this in a chess tournament against an opponent I imagine they would be treated the same way, and I only use chess as an example because it's the closest thing to "e-sports" I can think of at the moment.

Sometimes you just gotta grow up from whatever badly influenced habits you may have had (and maybe didn't realize you had) in the past. I doubt this player will be using language like this anytime in his future "pro" endeavors, and hopefully others who think this kind of abusive language is okay, however desensitized to it they think they've become, will see the repercussions of this and choose their words better if they ever compete in a professional tournament.
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28.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 18:08
28.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 18:08
Nov 24, 2014, 18:08
 
Prez wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 18:04:
Rape jokes are no reason to take action. But actual threats of rape? Oh yeah, big time.

Absolutely agreed, and in THAT case? "Tournament banning" should be the least of his fucking worries.
27.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 18:08
27.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 18:08
Nov 24, 2014, 18:08
 
SimplyMonk wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 17:46:
The guy used the word "rape" in direct reference to an action he was going to perform against a woman. That's like using "lynch" with an African, "holocaust" with a Jew or "prohibition" with an Irishman.

Yeah, and the action was 'beating someone at Starcraft'. No one's even pretending this was a "rape threat" except the terminally deluded.

Was it a stupid, assholish thing to say? Absolutely. Is it poor conduct? Yep. Can a tournament reasonably have standards that disqualify a player for saying so? Yep. And I'm still leery about demanding such a thing, even if I agree with 'em.

That's pretty much it. Free speech doesn't enter into it since the government wasn't involved. No one is saying he committed a crime.

I agree it's not a violation of free speech in a constitutional sense, and in this case it's very easy to argue it's an entirely reasonable rule. But as for 'no one is saying he's committed a crime', you may want to double check with Cutter and Beamer.

I know there is a gut reaction to want to defend him on some anti-PC or idealistic freedom of expression, but this case clearly falls into the realm of him getting what he deserved for his comment.

No, I'm not defending him on anti-PC grounds - or defending him at all. Is there some idealism in play? Absolutely. I said I'm leery when it comes to these bans, because they do carry risks with them. Those risks may be acceptable, but I'm not going to pretend that there's no risk at all.

I'm also not going to pretend this guy seriously threatened to physically rape someone, and that strawman being trotted out doesn't speak well of the people going for it here. If they need that to run defense for their view on this, they're in worse shape than they realize.
26.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 18:04
Prez
 
26.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 18:04
Nov 24, 2014, 18:04
 Prez
 
Rape jokes are no reason to take action. But actual threats of rape? Oh yeah, big time.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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25.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 17:46
25.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 17:46
Nov 24, 2014, 17:46
 
The guy used the word "rape" in direct reference to an action he was going to perform against a woman. That's like using "lynch" with an African, "holocaust" with a Jew or "prohibition" with an Irishman.

Doing so pretty much makes you a douchebag (I can still say that, right?) and as a rule, private organizations that interface with the public tend to want to ostracize any douchebags (Seriously? Can I? The more I use it the more it feels like a slur) they discover among their ranks.

That's pretty much it. Free speech doesn't enter into it since the government wasn't involved. No one is saying he committed a crime. What he says reflects on the tournament organizers as a participant so they had to take action. The guy was a jerk and treated in a manner appropriate to his jerkiness.

I know there is a gut reaction to want to defend him on some anti-PC or idealistic freedom of expression, but this case clearly falls into the realm of him getting what he deserved for his comment. He was free to say it, but has to pay the price for what he said.
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24.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 17:17
24.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 17:17
Nov 24, 2014, 17:17
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 17:14:
jdreyer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 17:11:
Beamer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:15:
kind of like grapefruit and peanut butter.

You say that like it's a bad thing.


I almost went steak and peanut butter, but I've had that (sort of) and it wasn't half bad (also sort of.)

Speaking of strange combinations, my friend forced me to drink a peanut butter milk stout, AND IT WAS SO GOOD.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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23.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 17:14
23.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 17:14
Nov 24, 2014, 17:14
 
jdreyer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 17:11:
Beamer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:15:
kind of like grapefruit and peanut butter.

You say that like it's a bad thing.


I almost went steak and peanut butter, but I've had that (sort of) and it wasn't half bad (also sort of.)
22.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 17:11
22.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 17:11
Nov 24, 2014, 17:11
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:15:
kind of like grapefruit and peanut butter.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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21.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 17:05
21.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 17:05
Nov 24, 2014, 17:05
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:56:
Principled stand?
Jesus. Jesus. Seriously. A principled stand against someone threatening to rape. This isn't someone being asked to sit in the back of the bus, this is someone making a rape comment.

You think the case we're talking about is 'threatening to rape'? Are you serious?

Do you think "The Jets are going to kill the Giants" is a threat of a spree shooting too?

So promoting equality is the same as threatening to rape.
Principled stand, dude.

In other words: no, just because your customers are made to feel uncomfortable by something, you wouldn't necessarily back down.

Thank you.

Uh... que?

It's related to logical argument, Beamer. Not concern. Do you know the difference between the two?


That is NOT what it said. Now you're making nice strawmen. Yet somehow I'm the one that doesn't know what a fallacy is.

You don't know what a fallacy is.

You also apparently take 'X is going to destroy you' as a literal threat to destroy someone. Slap in 'kill' if you like. Same issue.

I never said you were forcing them to change, I said you didn't like what they did. You dislike it. No one is asking this guy to not play Starcraft, they're telling him he can't in their tournament. No one is asking you to leave BluesNews, they're putting you on ignore.

Let them put me on ignore, and let them ban him from the tournament. I'll still express my concerns, even if I -agree- with their decision.

Sounds like Gamergate.

Yeah, yet another case where your comprehension issues come up.

Wait, didn't you say you're against speech policing? But sometimes it's good?

I said I'm leery of it. Aren't you?

I don't even understand what pronoun "True Believer" is supposed to mean, but fuck, it's coming from a guy that says he wants to take a "principled stand" to defend some guy's right to stay in a Starcraft tournament despite telling a female competitor he was going to rape her.

By all means, quote where I said as much. I said that I was leery of that kind of barring, and also expressed why I understood it, and what concerns I had. But you can't understand that, just as you can't understand I don't think what he said is anything but assholish.

Your own words, "principled stand" sounds like some kind of "True Believer" bullshit.

"I don't even know what True Believer means, but it's negative, therefore that's you!" Splendid.

It's nice, though, that I know I can call you a complete moron without you hitting that "report" button, because that would be speech policing.

Believe me, Beamer - my calling you a moron would be kinder than how I regard your faculties.
20.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 17:02
20.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 17:02
Nov 24, 2014, 17:02
 
And I apologize, I know it's over the line, it's just amazing to me that someone is using "principled stand," "speech police," and making slippery slope and misguided freedom of speech arguments over a Starcraft tournament kicking a guy out for sending a Tweet to a female competitor that he was going to rape her.

This is what our society is now - men desperately afraid that their "right" to tell women they're going to rape them without fear of being kicked out of a video game tournament will disappear.
19.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 16:56
19.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 16:56
Nov 24, 2014, 16:56
 
Yeahyeah Yeah wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:40:
Maybe I would, and maybe I wouldn't. Maybe I'd take a principled stand.

Principled stand?
Jesus. Jesus. Seriously. A principled stand against someone threatening to rape. This isn't someone being asked to sit in the back of the bus, this is someone making a rape comment.

If you ran a business, would you pull down posters celebrating feminism or decrying sexism if some of your customers said they felt uncomfortable?

So promoting equality is the same as threatening to rape.
Principled stand, dude.

Maybe you should look it up, since you apparently are unaware of what a fallacy is.

Uh... que?
If 'X is going to destroy you' in the context of an FPS game makes you shudder and cry, I'm likely going to tell you to relax.

That is NOT what it said. Now you're making nice strawmen. Yet somehow I'm the one that doesn't know what a fallacy is.

Do you remember the part where I said that just because I disagree doesn't mean I'd force them to change?

I never said you were forcing them to change, I said you didn't like what they did. You dislike it. No one is asking this guy to not play Starcraft, they're telling him he can't in their tournament. No one is asking you to leave BluesNews, they're putting you on ignore.

Like I said, Beamer - you seem to have a problem telling the difference between 'I disagree' and 'I want to force you to change'.

Sounds like Gamergate.


Yes, it is speech policing. It doesn't magically become something else just because you like the instance of it. Some speech policing is good. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's grey area.

Wait, didn't you say you're against speech policing? But sometimes it's good?

Keep on truckin', True Believer.

I don't even understand what pronoun "True Believer" is supposed to mean, but fuck, it's coming from a guy that says he wants to take a "principled stand" to defend some guy's right to stay in a Starcraft tournament despite telling a female competitor he was going to rape her.
Your own words, "principled stand" sounds like some kind of "True Believer" bullshit.

It's nice, though, that I know I can call you a complete moron without you hitting that "report" button, because that would be speech policing.
18.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 16:46
18.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 16:46
Nov 24, 2014, 16:46
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:35:
@Yeahyeah

What are you 12? Some things just aren't a joking matter. If you can't grasp that very simple fact then you've got a lot of growing up to do. This isn't being the PC police over some dumb shit that causes shrill leftists to get their panties in a bunch, it's a heinous, violent crime.

No, it's not. It's assholish language, and it's juvenile. But the fact that it repulses you isn't enough to get me on the 'therefore it should always be banned and people who say it should be punished' train.

Much less what you endorse.

By all means, like JD said, start using the word rape in that context around all the women you know and see how that goes over with them and their boyfriends and husbands and such. I hope you have your dental insurance paid up.

1: I'd never use it in that context, because I'm not that kind of asshole.
2: So, you think someone should have the shit physically kicked out of them (aka, a heinous, violent crime) for saying something assholish?

You don't merely need to grow up. You need help.

Edit: Actually, I'll go further. I wouldn't belt out rape jokes, period. I find it repulsive. My finding some language repulsive, even most people bar it, and I'll still be leery, even if I understand or even agree with their rules.

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 2014, 16:52.
17.
 
Re: Gatherings & Competitions
Nov 24, 2014, 16:40
17.
Re: Gatherings & Competitions Nov 24, 2014, 16:40
Nov 24, 2014, 16:40
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 24, 2014, 16:15:
But I'm sure you'd have no problem not associating yourself with people, or if you ran a business, asking people to leave if they said things that made you or your patrons uncomfortable.

Maybe I would, and maybe I wouldn't. Maybe I'd take a principled stand.

If you ran a business, would you pull down posters celebrating feminism or decrying sexism if some of your customers said they felt uncomfortable?

Because "I'm going to rape you" is an intellectual thought.
Jesus. Look up "slippery slope fallacy." Christ.

Maybe you should look it up, since you apparently are unaware of what a fallacy is.

If 'X is going to destroy you' in the context of an FPS game makes you shudder and cry, I'm likely going to tell you to relax.

The tournament had the freedom to kick him out.
Apparently you dislike that freedom.

Do you remember the part where I said that just because I disagree doesn't mean I'd force them to change?

Like I said, Beamer - you seem to have a problem telling the difference between 'I disagree' and 'I want to force you to change'.

It isn't speech policing. Jesus. You're so concerned with someone telling you what you can or can't do that you never stop to wonder why some people don't like things.

Yes, it is speech policing. It doesn't magically become something else just because you like the instance of it. Some speech policing is good. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's grey area.

And no, I can easily stop and wonder why some people don't like some things - nor is it just me that I care about. (I don't use most of the speech I defend others using, and I frown upon a good portion of it.) You seem incapable of comprehending disliking some speech yet not out and out barring it.

"It's my freedom to say whatever I want without repercussions due to intellectual exchange of ideas!"

I'm trying to figure out what's more amazing with you - your True Believer behavior, or your inability to even comprehend what you're reading. Again: did you miss where I said I wouldn't force the private tournament to change? Did you miss my counterexamples?

Of course you did. These are scary thoughts - you try not to dwell on them.

Sorry, buddy. You and "intellectual" don't really go well together, kind of like grapefruit and peanut butter.

Gasp. I lack the intellectual endorsement of Beamer? What a... relief. A small one - you're not important. But hey, small benefits are benefits all the same.

Keep on truckin', True Believer.
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