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18.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 7, 2014, 12:37
18.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 7, 2014, 12:37
Nov 7, 2014, 12:37
 
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 20:23:
beremot wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 19:50:

Are Wu, etc, really going on twitter and saying "I'm getting all these rape and death threats, and that is EXACTLY the same as if I were actually being raped and murdered?"

No that's not what she is saying. And I don't believe that there's anything fundamentally wrong with saying "These two things are both related to misogyny." because that's absolutely true. But that's not what was said.

Here's the link to the Tweet.

Police investigating 4chan link to murdered woman. Gamergate, tell me again how my life isn't in danger

She suggests that this case lends credibility to the online threats she received. Even though there were no online threats that we know of, the man was the woman's live-in boyfriend, and had a documented history of domestic violence and threats. The dynamics of this problem are different, so the solution and the conversation must also be different. History and statistics show us that domestic violence is a clear and present danger for many women. Being murdered by an anonymous Twitter user is not. There simply isn't a history of people making good on these threats. It's everyone's right to have an irrational fear not backed up by the numbers. You can't help being afraid of whatever you're afraid of. You can't shut it off.

But when you start voicing that fear publicly, don't be surprised when people accuse you of fear-mongering and generalization.

I have no objection to her stating that these things are related vis-a-vis misogyny, which they are. But the timing and context of her tweet are in poor taste and make it look like she's making it about herself and somehow comparing her situation to the situation of an actual abuse victim who probably lived every day in fear of a known credible threat who shared her home.

If she had simply linked to the story and said "This is scary shit!" or something, the entire tone of her tweet would have been different. But no, she had to name drop Gamergate, which immediately colors things differently.

Yep, I gotta agree here. "Quickly, I have to point the attention back on me!"

I think if Brianna Wu actually genuinely was scared for her life, she'd stop posting. This whole heroic "They can't make me change my life!" attitude works in movies, but in real life, nobody is going to keep standing up for something as retarded as this entire gamergate thing has evolved into if they were genuinely worried they would get killed over it. Nobody is that heroic.

If she'd stop using twitter and stop calling attention out to herself, nobody would remember who she was in a week. But this allows her to keep getting sympathy and to keep in the news.
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17.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 7, 2014, 04:01
17.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 7, 2014, 04:01
Nov 7, 2014, 04:01
 
Lame as lame can be: Woman dead because...GAMERGATE!

Fucking lame. And Sad. And immoral. Why? Because she is using that woman's death in the most fucked up selfish way possible.
I have a nifty blue line!
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16.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 23:45
16.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 23:45
Nov 6, 2014, 23:45
 
Okay, I see what you mean. That does seem kind of lame. I agree that she should have said something different, something along the lines of "This is what misogyny can lead to," etc. Directly linking it to the threats she has received--though I take those seriously--is weak. She also doesn't seem to be taking into account the feelings of those who actually loved and knew this woman, like the woman's son, for instance ... She shouldn't have linked the murder directly back to herself like that.

I think that is a limitation with twitter (which I don't follow by the way)--it is difficult to express anything complex or nuanced when you're so limited in what you can say. But that is why you don't use twitter to post about something like this in the first place.

This comment was edited on Nov 6, 2014, 23:54.
"Supreme Uncontested Dear Leader for Life and Chief Justice for the Social Justice Warriors©--beeeeeeyotch!"
15.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 20:23
NKD
15.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 20:23
Nov 6, 2014, 20:23
NKD
 
beremot wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 19:50:

Are Wu, etc, really going on twitter and saying "I'm getting all these rape and death threats, and that is EXACTLY the same as if I were actually being raped and murdered?"

No that's not what she is saying. And I don't believe that there's anything fundamentally wrong with saying "These two things are both related to misogyny." because that's absolutely true. But that's not what was said.

Here's the link to the Tweet.

Police investigating 4chan link to murdered woman. Gamergate, tell me again how my life isn't in danger

She suggests that this case lends credibility to the online threats she received. Even though there were no online threats that we know of, the man was the woman's live-in boyfriend, and had a documented history of domestic violence and threats. The dynamics of this problem are different, so the solution and the conversation must also be different. History and statistics show us that domestic violence is a clear and present danger for many women. Being murdered by an anonymous Twitter user is not. There simply isn't a history of people making good on these threats. It's everyone's right to have an irrational fear not backed up by the numbers. You can't help being afraid of whatever you're afraid of. You can't shut it off.

But when you start voicing that fear publicly, don't be surprised when people accuse you of fear-mongering and generalization.

I have no objection to her stating that these things are related vis-a-vis misogyny, which they are. But the timing and context of her tweet are in poor taste and make it look like she's making it about herself and somehow comparing her situation to the situation of an actual abuse victim who probably lived every day in fear of a known credible threat who shared her home.

If she had simply linked to the story and said "This is scary shit!" or something, the entire tone of her tweet would have been different. But no, she had to name drop Gamergate, which immediately colors things differently.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
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14.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 19:50
14.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 19:50
Nov 6, 2014, 19:50
 

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother and aunt, NKD. My own mother was subject to abuse. And when I was a newspaper reporter I wrote extensively about both domestic violence and domestic homicide, including a long profile of a woman whose abuser was eventually imprisoned. So I do know something about the subject.

Having said that, I just don't understand the argument you appear to be making.

Are Wu, etc, really going on twitter and saying "I'm getting all these rape and death threats, and that is EXACTLY the same as if I were actually being raped and murdered?"

I mean is anyone saying that? Because that appears to be the argument that you and others are responding to. Are you sure it's not a straw man?

Of course being threatened with rape and murder is not akin to actually being raped and murdered.

But they are connected, the same way a racist threatening to murder a black man is connected to racist who actually would murder a black man. One is willing to act on his racist beliefs while the other might not be willing to do so, but they are both racists. That is their shared belief system and common background.

It's the same with men who threaten to rape and murder women. They might not act on those threats, but the misogynistic attitudes that lead them to threaten anyone with rape, are the same attitudes that actual rapists share. One "merely" threatens, while the other acts, but they share a common belief system. And both the threats and the actual attacks share a common intention, to terrorize their targets. Again, of course threatening to rape someone is not the same as raping them, but you shouldn't act like it is of no consequence whatsoever, something not worth speaking out about.

If a prominent feminist decries what she sees as a culture of hostility towards women, and in response receives multiple rape and death threats--why the hell shouldn't she be allowed to talk about those threats? They are part of the very atmosphere she is speaking out about, just like if a black man spoke out against racism and received racist threats in return.

I just don't get the argument here, NKD. I really don't.

This comment was edited on Nov 6, 2014, 20:18.
"Supreme Uncontested Dear Leader for Life and Chief Justice for the Social Justice Warriors©--beeeeeeyotch!"
13.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 17:26
13.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 17:26
Nov 6, 2014, 17:26
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 14:39:
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 13:10:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:46:
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:30:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:00:
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 09:48:
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.

Yup.
Had he killed someone over an argument on 4chan, fine, but he killed someone then bragged on the most convenient place on the internet. The steps to how he killed and ended up on 4chan aren't the same as anything else being discussed.

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.

No offense, but you're the one doing that.

Briana, Zoe and Anita have had numerous 4chan threads discussing ways they should die. Don't you think this hits a little close to home for then? It doesn't make them right, but I'm certain they're honest in being concerned that a message board obsessed with killing them has a thread bragging about killing a woman.

But I won't let understanding where people come from stop your personal agenda.

What's my agenda? [/quote

Diminishing death threats, apparently.

My original point was that people will use tragedy to prove a point regardless of the facts involved. This was a case of domestic violence, it wasn't random, and it wasn't from some anonymous stranger on the internet. Perhaps there's a lesson in there about misogyny, I don't know if the guys motivations were ever stated or if he was just completely bat-shit insane and did it just because.

It's not that I don't understand where she's coming from, but as someone who has been a public face of the anti-GG movement (her not me), I think it's a poor comparison for her to have made. This was a domestic abuse situation, and the danger from someone who you know and/or live with threatening you is a lot higher and more immediate than some asshole on the internet. I'm not trying to diminish the terribleness of internet death threats, but I think it's disingenuous to artificially inflate the threat by pointing to a domestic abuse case and saying 'SEE I WAS RIGHT'. That kind of rhetoric is great for your supporters, but it drives away people who realize it wasn't a case of online harassment, and it further cuts-off meaningful dialogue with your detractors, because it is seen at an attempt to demonize them.

From reading the article what I did see from the supposed GG people was disbelief, they thought it was a hoax, and horror/disgust at the act and sympathy for the victims. I've not looked at 4 chan or reddit so I don't know if that's an accurate representation of the general population or not.

What particularly bothers me is I agree with her on a lot of basic points. Online threats aren't funny or harmless, women tend to get targeted online for harassment because of their gender, and there's a good deal of misogyny in games (though with some caveats on that last one).

I think what he takes exception to, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, is the same thing I take exception to. That is, comparing bullshit anonymous online trolling to the very real threat of domestic violence.

That's probably a way better explanation than all my rambling.
12.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 16:32
12.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 16:32
Nov 6, 2014, 16:32
 
Task wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 15:49:
With the threats of those other people (non related to that gruesome murder), are they talking out of their ass trying to sound tought with threats or are they serious is the question.

There is a huge line an individual has step going from bullying to straight up pre-meditated murder. That murder that is listed is someone that is already crazed and obviously snapped.

It's hard to tell where that line is, particularly when you're the one with people sending you threats that include your home address.

I mean, unless you take Total Biscuit's absolutely moronic and asinine view that the threats aren't credible because no one is dead. I mean, that also means that Hinkely shooting Reagan wasn't a threat because it didn't kill him. Total Biscuit says some dumb things.
11.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 15:50
NKD
11.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 15:50
Nov 6, 2014, 15:50
NKD
 
beremot wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 14:30:
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:30:

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.

That agenda would be ... what? Tying misogyny online to misogyny in the real world? Tying misogyny online to the way some men abuse women in the real world? Like there could be no actual connection between those things?

I think what he takes exception to, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, is the same thing I take exception to. That is, comparing bullshit anonymous online trolling to the very real threat of domestic violence. Many of us have family members who had to live in terror of an abusive husband or boyfriend and couldn't just avoid them by not opening up Twitter. Family members who had to endure physical abuse weekly or even daily. Thankfully, I personally haven't lost a family member to domestic violence. But both my grandmother and aunt have dealt with it. My grandmother was married to an abusive man from the time she was in her 30s until the day she died of cancer in her late 60s. He only OCCASIONALLY beat and raped her, and calmed down a bit as he got older. Many women have it even worse. Her biggest regret was never leaving him and that this abusive asshole was going to out live her.

You think someones online Twitter threats are real, and scary? How about 30 years of living with the person sending those threats? How about like the woman in the story who probably knew, with certainty, that the very person she lived with was violent enough to kill, but was too scared to leave?

Misogyny? The real misogyny is thinking that because you possess a vagina and have mean things said to you online that you can somehow understand what the real domestic abuse and real fear are like. Brianna Wu is a rich trust fund kid who has no understanding of what it's like to feel trapped because you're financially dependent on someone who beats the fuck out of you, or forces you to have sex with them.

I believe these things DO stem from the same misogynistic attitudes, but that's an academic argument that ignores the huge practical differences, and is a discussion not suited to Twitter where 140 characters just makes you look like you're trying to claim your own little problems are somehow comparable in severity and scope.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Avatar 43041
10.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 15:49
10.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 15:49
Nov 6, 2014, 15:49
 
With the threats of those other people (non related to that gruesome murder), are they talking out of their ass trying to sound tought with threats or are they serious is the question.

There is a huge line an individual has step going from bullying to straight up pre-meditated murder. That murder that is listed is someone that is already crazed and obviously snapped.
Avatar 37119
9.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 14:39
9.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 14:39
Nov 6, 2014, 14:39
 
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 13:10:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:46:
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:30:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:00:
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 09:48:
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.

Yup.
Had he killed someone over an argument on 4chan, fine, but he killed someone then bragged on the most convenient place on the internet. The steps to how he killed and ended up on 4chan aren't the same as anything else being discussed.

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.

No offense, but you're the one doing that.

Briana, Zoe and Anita have had numerous 4chan threads discussing ways they should die. Don't you think this hits a little close to home for then? It doesn't make them right, but I'm certain they're honest in being concerned that a message board obsessed with killing them has a thread bragging about killing a woman.

But I won't let understanding where people come from stop your personal agenda.

What's my agenda? [/quote

Diminishing death threats, apparently.
8.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 14:30
8.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 14:30
Nov 6, 2014, 14:30
 
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:30:

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.

That agenda would be ... what? Tying misogyny online to misogyny in the real world? Tying misogyny online to the way some men abuse women in the real world? Like there could be no actual connection between those things?

You think domestic homicide is really just some random "tragedy?" A random tragedy that keeps repeating itself over and over again? With no connection to, say, the way women are seen by some men as objects--i.e. their personal property?

4chan is not responsible for what that fucker did, but it is no accident that he posted there. Posts detailing long, drawn out fantasies about the rape and murder of women aren't exactly uncommon on 4chan. I quit going there after someone starting posting nude photos of a headless woman's body.

Here's an idea. Why don't you start posting there under a female name. See what kind of reception you get. Then come back and tell us about "agendas."

"Supreme Uncontested Dear Leader for Life and Chief Justice for the Social Justice Warriors©--beeeeeeyotch!"
7.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 13:57
7.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 13:57
Nov 6, 2014, 13:57
 
One man’s failed quest to buy wired Internet from TWC or Verizon.

Huh, can't get TWC to spend some of that free government money to hook your rural home up with internet? Go to your state senator! Heck, go to your US senator! Oh, wait.

“I keep pursuing it and I keep being stuck,” he said. “It’s to the point where I’m kind of at a loss as to what else I can do other than continue down the same path. But my state senator has gotten donations from Time Warner… Chuck Schumer is one of my [US] senators. His brother works for Time Warner. Not to say that they would be overwhelmed by a donation that they received from a corporation, but I just don’t see my voice as being as loud as theirs.”
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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6.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 13:10
6.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 13:10
Nov 6, 2014, 13:10
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:46:
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:30:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:00:
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 09:48:
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.

Yup.
Had he killed someone over an argument on 4chan, fine, but he killed someone then bragged on the most convenient place on the internet. The steps to how he killed and ended up on 4chan aren't the same as anything else being discussed.

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.

No offense, but you're the one doing that.

Briana, Zoe and Anita have had numerous 4chan threads discussing ways they should die. Don't you think this hits a little close to home for then? It doesn't make them right, but I'm certain they're honest in being concerned that a message board obsessed with killing them has a thread bragging about killing a woman.

But I won't let understanding where people come from stop your personal agenda.

What's my agenda?
5.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 11:46
5.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 11:46
Nov 6, 2014, 11:46
 
Pigeon wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:30:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:00:
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 09:48:
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.

Yup.
Had he killed someone over an argument on 4chan, fine, but he killed someone then bragged on the most convenient place on the internet. The steps to how he killed and ended up on 4chan aren't the same as anything else being discussed.

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.

No offense, but you're the one doing that.

Briana, Zoe and Anita have had numerous 4chan threads discussing ways they should die. Don't you think this hits a little close to home for then? It doesn't make them right, but I'm certain they're honest in being concerned that a message board obsessed with killing them has a thread bragging about killing a woman.

But I won't let understanding where people come from stop your personal agenda.
4.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 11:30
4.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 11:30
Nov 6, 2014, 11:30
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 11:00:
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 09:48:
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.

Yup.
Had he killed someone over an argument on 4chan, fine, but he killed someone then bragged on the most convenient place on the internet. The steps to how he killed and ended up on 4chan aren't the same as anything else being discussed.

The truth never stopped anyone from twisting a tragedy to meet their own agenda.
3.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 11:00
3.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 11:00
Nov 6, 2014, 11:00
 
NKD wrote on Nov 6, 2014, 09:48:
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.

Yup.
Had he killed someone over an argument on 4chan, fine, but he killed someone then bragged on the most convenient place on the internet. The steps to how he killed and ended up on 4chan aren't the same as anything else being discussed.
2.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 10:03
2.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 10:03
Nov 6, 2014, 10:03
 
I have seen the pics that he posted on 4chan.

Jesus Christ. You really can't unsee some things.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Avatar 21247
1.
 
Re: Morning Metaverse
Nov 6, 2014, 09:48
NKD
1.
Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 6, 2014, 09:48
Nov 6, 2014, 09:48
NKD
 
That murderer guy turned himself in to police rather than suicide-by-cop as he originally planned, so he is in custody now. Though the "4chan link" stuff is overstating it a bit. 4chan is where the dude posted his sick pictures after the fact. As far as anyone can tell, there was no other involvement by anyone on 4chan.

The best part was when ol' Brianna Wu decided to go on Twitter and link this to Gamergate or hold it up as an example of how serious online threats are. Except there were no online threats. This guy did his threatening in the real world, had a history of domestic violence and threats against law enforcement, and killed his girlfriend who he lived with, not some random woman on the Internet.

Sick of the people in this world who do that kind of shit. Comparing your trivial online threats to the very serious problem of domestic violence, god damn. Shameless.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Avatar 43041
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