SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response

SEGA made a court filing yesterday in the lawsuit over the marketing of Aliens: Colonial Marines, the poorly received sci-fi first-person shooter. The suit claims the game did not live up to its marketing, and did not visually match what was demonstrated publically before its release, but Gearbox has fought inclusion, laying responsibility of this at the feet of publisher SEGA, even refusing to participate in a settlement to end the legal action. Now Polygon has details on SEGA's rebuttal to this, saying the publisher makes the case that Gearbox boss Randy Pitchford frequently strayed from agreed upon boundaries in discussing the game, showing an internal email fretting "Randy [Pitchford] doing whatever the f*ck he likes," but the context of that mail and several other of their assertions seem to focus on Randy leaking details about the game, not about him talking about features it will not include. The one item on that subject is an email concerning the controversial demo showing at E3 2011 where SEGA producer Matt Powers says he spoke with Gearbox and "verified that the E3 Demo is indeed the bar that we should use to determine where the entire game will be." The filing also refutes Gearbox's contention that they never received any payments tied to the sales of Aliens, saying some of their milestone payments included advance royalty payments. Gearbox's claim that it spent millions of dollars of its own money to complete the game goes unaddressed.
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50.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 7, 2014, 03:56
50.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 7, 2014, 03:56
Sep 7, 2014, 03:56
 
Flatline wrote on Sep 6, 2014, 18:21:
This isn't anything new though. Back in the day of gaming mags and even of current web news sites, we see screenshots that are in no way representitive of the final product. They're rendered at insanely high resolution with all bells and whistles turned on and they look *fantastic*.

I could probably, with a little digging, pull up an in-development screenshot of Half-life 2 that still looks better than what I can render on my PC with all the bells & whistles turned on.

But I think one difference is that IF you had a maxxed out machine, you could run the game at that res with all those options on. You could see it that way with the right hardware. As I understand it, even the PC version did not contain the options shown in the E3 demo? Even as an option to turn on? That strikes me as odd.
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49.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 20:48
49.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 20:48
Sep 6, 2014, 20:48
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 6, 2014, 16:18:
This isn't calling out. Calling out is saying you won't buy into lies, and literally won't pay for them. Companies then have an incentive to be more transparent.

This is suing. Setting a legal precedent. Companies then stop doing things altogether, because the financial reward becomes a financial penalty.

No you are wrong, this is both.

This isn't anything new though. Back in the day of gaming mags and even of current web news sites, we see screenshots that are in no way representitive of the final product. They're rendered at insanely high resolution with all bells and whistles turned on and they look *fantastic*.

I don't ever recall feeling ripped off because a screenshot was a bit higher resolution. I did feel ripped off when I loaded up A:CM and found it to be drastically different than every single demonstration, video and piece of media they had shown prior.
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48.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 18:21
48.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 18:21
Sep 6, 2014, 18:21
 
Redmask wrote on Sep 6, 2014, 15:06:
They have no problem showing off unpolished alphas, they just mock them up specifically for the show and run them on PC hardware with settings the console versions will never see. We've seen it all before, don't tell me it doesn't happen. Games don't change post cert without a patch either. We're not even talking about minor changes or optimization.

Don't talk to me about expectations and blame it on the consumer either, they were the ones who built the expectations and continually try to up the ante by selling people on graphics alone. What I want out a 'gameplay' demo is something remotely representative of the finished product. People are calling out companies for making drastic shifts in what they are shown and what is delivered, I don't see how that's a bad thing. Companies have been getting away with too much there for awhile now.

This isn't anything new though. Back in the day of gaming mags and even of current web news sites, we see screenshots that are in no way representitive of the final product. They're rendered at insanely high resolution with all bells and whistles turned on and they look *fantastic*.

I could probably, with a little digging, pull up an in-development screenshot of Half-life 2 that still looks better than what I can render on my PC with all the bells & whistles turned on.
47.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 16:18
47.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 16:18
Sep 6, 2014, 16:18
 
Redmask wrote on Sep 6, 2014, 15:06:
They have no problem showing off unpolished alphas, they just mock them up specifically for the show and run them on PC hardware with settings the console versions will never see. We've seen it all before, don't tell me it doesn't happen. Games don't change post cert without a patch either. We're not even talking about minor changes or optimization.

Don't talk to me about expectations and blame it on the consumer either, they were the ones who built the expectations and continually try to up the ante by selling people on graphics alone. What I want out a 'gameplay' demo is something remotely representative of the finished product. People are calling out companies for making drastic shifts in what they are shown and what is delivered, I don't see how that's a bad thing. Companies have been getting away with too much there for awhile now.

This isn't calling out. Calling out is saying you won't buy into lies, and literally won't pay for them. Companies then have an incentive to be more transparent.

This is suing. Setting a legal precedent. Companies then stop doing things altogether, because the financial reward becomes a financial penalty.
46.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 15:06
46.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 15:06
Sep 6, 2014, 15:06
 
They have no problem showing off unpolished alphas, they just mock them up specifically for the show and run them on PC hardware with settings the console versions will never see. We've seen it all before, don't tell me it doesn't happen. Games don't change post cert without a patch either. We're not even talking about minor changes or optimization.

Don't talk to me about expectations and blame it on the consumer either, they were the ones who built the expectations and continually try to up the ante by selling people on graphics alone. What I want out a 'gameplay' demo is something remotely representative of the finished product. People are calling out companies for making drastic shifts in what they are shown and what is delivered, I don't see how that's a bad thing. Companies have been getting away with too much there for awhile now.
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45.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 13:23
45.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 13:23
Sep 6, 2014, 13:23
 
Redmask wrote on Sep 6, 2014, 10:53:
The E3 video is effectively advertising. I don't see how rigging up $3000.00 PC kits could ever be construed as an innocent attempt to showcase your game when the actual running conditions are vastly different. They didn't even run it on AMD APUs like the consoles. Nefarious is a strong word to use, lets adjust that to something more appropriate like simple greed or pressure from above. I don't think there was a master villain gleefully rubbing his hands together behind the scenes but I do think that companies make these sorts of decisions knowing full well that they are deceiving consumers. It's more mundane and less dramatic but the effect is the same.

Because it was an unpolished alpha. No one is ever going to show an unpolished alpha. Go back to when Epic first released the UE4 alpha - people were saying "the graphics suck, I won't play this." It's an alpha!

Most people don't understand how making a game happens, so they don't understand that a game will change drastically over time. Even in the last six months. Even in the last six days. It gets optimized. Features get added or removed. Yes, this includes levels, filters, graphics.

Not to mention that, at this point, a $10,000 devkit is needed to run the code, and that devkit is probably better off staying in the studio where the people not at the tradeshow can use it to keep optimizing.

If an E3 demo legally needs to be representative of the final product, we've killed E3. And we've killed video game previews. Everyone will just be like Valve and not show anything until it's about to go gold.
44.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 10:53
44.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 10:53
Sep 6, 2014, 10:53
 
The E3 video is effectively advertising. I don't see how rigging up $3000.00 PC kits could ever be construed as an innocent attempt to showcase your game when the actual running conditions are vastly different. They didn't even run it on AMD APUs like the consoles. Nefarious is a strong word to use, lets adjust that to something more appropriate like simple greed or pressure from above. I don't think there was a master villain gleefully rubbing his hands together behind the scenes but I do think that companies make these sorts of decisions knowing full well that they are deceiving consumers. It's more mundane and less dramatic but the effect is the same.
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43.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 6, 2014, 04:31
43.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 6, 2014, 04:31
Sep 6, 2014, 04:31
 
Redmask wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 19:12:
jdreyer wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 17:31:
Beamer wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 15:15:

I dunno, I've never met a dev that want to intentionally mislead.
I've also never met Randy Pitchford.

Yeah, like I said there could be a fairly innocent explanation of them just wanting to show off the engine to its full potential.

That's not innocent when its not representative of what people will actually get when they buy the product. Before someone mentions that products in development are always changing, yes absolutely they are but remember that we're posting in the Aliens: Colonial Marines topic where there was blatantly misleading advertising material used.

Right, I'm referring to the E3 video or whatever, not the advertising. I believe the lawsuit also refers to the E3 video, but I think it also mentions the advertising. My point is there's a distinct possibility that it was not a nefarious decision to make that E3 demo look great.
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42.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 5, 2014, 19:12
42.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 5, 2014, 19:12
Sep 5, 2014, 19:12
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 17:31:
Beamer wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 15:15:

I dunno, I've never met a dev that want to intentionally mislead.
I've also never met Randy Pitchford.

Yeah, like I said there could be a fairly innocent explanation of them just wanting to show off the engine to its full potential.

That's not innocent when its not representative of what people will actually get when they buy the product. Before someone mentions that products in development are always changing, yes absolutely they are but remember that we're posting in the Aliens: Colonial Marines topic where there was blatantly misleading advertising material used.
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41.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 5, 2014, 17:31
41.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 5, 2014, 17:31
Sep 5, 2014, 17:31
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 15:15:

I dunno, I've never met a dev that want to intentionally mislead.
I've also never met Randy Pitchford.

Yeah, like I said there could be a fairly innocent explanation of them just wanting to show off the engine to its full potential.
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40.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 5, 2014, 15:15
40.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 5, 2014, 15:15
Sep 5, 2014, 15:15
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 5, 2014, 14:57:
Beamer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 21:31:
Eh, when you get down to it, these decisions are usually not made by some "marketing drone," they're made by some combination of the dev team and the producer, none of whom I think are sophisticated enough to try to pull the wool over consumer's eyes, and by the studio PR manager, who usually is more concerned with having to deal with fallout to want to mislead.

First, the top devs in the industry are extremely smart people. I wouldn't make assumptions.

Second, it might not be a nasty tricksy thing, but it could just be pride, or wanting to put your best foot forward, or whatever: "Let's turn on all the bells and whistles for PAX! Get five machines each with an 8 core proc OC'd at 5GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 1 TB raid 0 SSDs, and Quad SLI! Then we'll turn on ambient occlussion, use TXAA, max out tessellation and PhysX all on a 4K screen. It'll look AWESOME!"

I dunno, I've never met a dev that want to intentionally mislead.
I've also never met Randy Pitchford.
39.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 5, 2014, 14:57
39.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 5, 2014, 14:57
Sep 5, 2014, 14:57
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 21:31:
Eh, when you get down to it, these decisions are usually not made by some "marketing drone," they're made by some combination of the dev team and the producer, none of whom I think are sophisticated enough to try to pull the wool over consumer's eyes, and by the studio PR manager, who usually is more concerned with having to deal with fallout to want to mislead.

First, the top devs in the industry are extremely smart people. I wouldn't make assumptions.

Second, it might not be a nasty tricksy thing, but it could just be pride, or wanting to put your best foot forward, or whatever: "Let's turn on all the bells and whistles for PAX! Get five machines each with an 8 core proc OC'd at 5GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 1 TB raid 0 SSDs, and Quad SLI! Then we'll turn on ambient occlussion, use TXAA, max out tessellation and PhysX all on a 4K screen. It'll look AWESOME!"
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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38.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 21:51
38.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 21:51
Sep 4, 2014, 21:51
 
Creston wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 16:04:
Dude, please. The game runs straight up on the PC's ludicrously more powerful hardware. If you seriously believe they have it running in a fucking emulated Xbone environment, I have an emulated copy of the Golden Gate bridge to sell you.

All the Xbone games shown at the very first E3 were ALL straight up running on high-end PCs, not on the shitty Xbone hardware.

Yep its extremely naive to think otherwise. They were running on fucking Nvidia cards with PP dialed to the heavens. Marketing people understand 'make game look amazing so consumer wants' perfectly well.
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37.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 21:31
37.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 21:31
Sep 4, 2014, 21:31
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 19:30:
Beamer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 16:07:

But I still don't think that's done to make a game look better. It's done because it's just much more feasible.

You could be right. And the government is only using the tenets of the Patriot Act to go after terrorists. They'd never take advantage of any ancillary benefits the law provided.

Oh, wait...

Eh, when you get down to it, these decisions are usually not made by some "marketing drone," they're made by some combination of the dev team and the producer, none of whom I think are sophisticated enough to try to pull the wool over consumer's eyes, and by the studio PR manager, who usually is more concerned with having to deal with fallout to want to mislead.
36.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 19:30
36.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 19:30
Sep 4, 2014, 19:30
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 16:07:

But I still don't think that's done to make a game look better. It's done because it's just much more feasible.

You could be right. And the government is only using the tenets of the Patriot Act to go after terrorists. They'd never take advantage of any ancillary benefits the law provided.

Oh, wait...
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35.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 16:07
35.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 16:07
Sep 4, 2014, 16:07
 
Creston wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 16:04:
Dude, please. The game runs straight up on the PC's ludicrously more powerful hardware. If you seriously believe they have it running in a fucking emulated Xbone environment, I have an emulated copy of the Golden Gate bridge to sell you.

All the Xbone games shown at the very first E3 were ALL straight up running on high-end PCs, not on the shitty Xbone hardware.



But I still don't think that's done to make a game look better. It's done because it's just much more feasible.
34.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 16:04
34.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 16:04
Sep 4, 2014, 16:04
 
Dude, please. The game runs straight up on the PC's ludicrously more powerful hardware. If you seriously believe they have it running in a fucking emulated Xbone environment, I have an emulated copy of the Golden Gate bridge to sell you.

All the Xbone games shown at the very first E3 were ALL straight up running on high-end PCs, not on the shitty Xbone hardware.


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33.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 16:00
33.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 16:00
Sep 4, 2014, 16:00
 
Creston wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 15:46:
Beamer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 13:37:
The games are often running in an Xbox environment on the PC.

Yeah, and my dick is 12 inches too.

Why?
The development is all done on the PC, and often, that early in the game's development, it hasn't really been compiled onto the console without bugs popping up, making a demo harder to control.
Beyond that, they have a choice of either bringing very expensive devkits with them, which can be a risk and also takes the devkit out of the studio where others would be working on it, or they could burn a disc, which requires getting the game functional enough to load from a disc and risks the disc being stolen. Not to mention that a regular console can't run any old burned disc. It would pretty much need to be one of those devkits brought with them.
32.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 15:58
32.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 15:58
Sep 4, 2014, 15:58
 
Verno wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 15:06:
Fantaz wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 14:15:
i'm pretty sure they never do this at the official Microsoft booths, if ever only from the independent developer booths at expos.

I'm pretty sure its happened several times before but I don't care enough to go hunt down links about it.

I think you're right, but also don't care enough to find links, since it doesn't seem obviously googleable.
31.
 
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response
Sep 4, 2014, 15:46
31.
Re: SEGA's Aliens: Colonial Marines Lawsuit Response Sep 4, 2014, 15:46
Sep 4, 2014, 15:46
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 4, 2014, 13:37:
The games are often running in an Xbox environment on the PC.

Yeah, and my dick is 12 inches too.
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